English players Dual Nationality thread #2

Spain as well . Italy only really for those who were already Italian citizens.

 

Yeah I thought Jorginho was purely Brazilian and not of Italian descent until just reading his Wiki. Still quite a distant connection though.

 

Even then his eligibility is only through his residency as an adult in Italy. FIFA eligibility doesn't go to great grandparents. He's not different to the other cases like Arteta really.

Four of the last five Euro winning starting elevens have players nationalised as adults, I don't think its something you can really turn your nose up at if you want to maximise your competitiveness, which given England's terrible record of winning anything, should certainly be a priority. Is it preferential? No. Does it hold England back compared to other nations? Well yes, because they do it and we can't.

Particularly with the loosened restrictions nowadays that mean the likes of Arteta and N'Zonzi would be eligible for us whereas they weren't before. N'Zonzi for example for sure would have improved our starting team in 2016 and 2018.

 

I think it would have been very controversial through to have included him. In the build up to London 2012 the Daily Mail famously had the Plastic Brits article where every one born outside of the UK - no matter their heritage or time spent in the UK since, was criticised and seen as inappropriate.

 

Well of course the Daily Mail would go over the top about it, that's priced in to be ignored just as with appointing a foreign manager.

I think ideally nationality laws would be tighter, but if they're not we only really hurt ourselves by not using them when our more successful rivals are doing it. And as Horris says I think there's probably a stronger claim for nationalised players over people who've never even lived in the country they play for really. At least an Arteta is to some extent a reflection of development through English football.

 

There's a big hypocrisy in some of the discourse in that regard. I was listening to one of the Athletic podcasts the other day and when talking about why they thought England shouldn't be hiring a foreign manager they posed the question, "Would Italy or Spain do it?", which is incredibly hypocritical when those countries are regularly fielding players they didn't produce, which is ultimately more impactful than any managerial appointment. Nobody bats an eyelid when those countries do that.

 

So he would actually be able to play for us under the rules now? If so, are there any players of similar profile now? I'm guessing nations are a bit more hawkish on this stuff now and would probably look to cap-tie flight risks.

 

There's no one really right now to be fair. David Raya was eligible till he was capped by Spain a couple of years. Might have came up if Spain's goalkeeping situation was as strong as it used to be a few years back, given what a liability Pickford has been on the ball for England in recent times.

At least with regards to N'Zonzi it was reported that the FA contacted FIFA about it and were told he was ineligible, which does suggest that if the manager pushed for it they'd presumably be prepared to try and re-negotiate the home nations agreement if it came down to it.

 

One of the earlier iterations of the HNA had a carve-out that allowed British passport holders with no birthplace connection to any home nation (including parents'/grandparents' birthplaces) to play for the home nation of their choice. That obviously created a few ridiculous situations, but it seems like it wouldn't be that difficult to adjust the current agreement to allow for eligibility through adult residency only in cases where there's no birthplace link to any of the home nations. Without having thought it through carefully, I don't think there would be a legal issue with that.

Obviously it's a separate question whether it would be a good thing to allow that. I have mixed feelings given the uneven playing field we sometimes end up on, but I'm broadly comfortable with the line being drawn where it is now.

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/3118...gland-thomas-tuchel-jamaica-gareth-southgate/
Mason Greenwood delaying his Jamaica switch now incase Tuchel wants him. I hope he doesn’t but Tuchel is someone who might not care about the unpopularity or take it well if the FA management advise against his call up.

 

I wonder how the Jamaicans will feel about this? I mean if this is true then he’s obviously not that desperate to play for Jamaica.

 

Wonder if @Athlone will take his usual hard line on Mason, or perhaps the talent level will afford him some more slack?

 

Addressing the actual issue though, I can't see how Tuchel could accept him in to the fold. As FB would say, it would being a whole world of controversy and will surely be a net-negative move.

 

It would be very controversial- I am unsure if Tuchel himself would feel that is reason not to select him but the FA absolutely would try and stop him because it’s them who would face the protests and sponsor backlash.

 

Yves Bissouma's son wants to play for England more than Ben White does.

Yves Bissouma wants his son to grow up and play for Mali.. 🇲🇱

His son isn't having any of it and wants to play for England. 😂❤️
pic.twitter.com/0CzoPtFJJN

— Football Tweet ⚽ (@Football__Tweet) October 19, 2024

 

Should check if he can play leftback.

 

He was pretty scathing about Hutchinson and his U-turn so guess we will see.

 

Tuchel would be mental to pick Greenwood. The FA would step in if he tried.

 

That they would but the one think everyone agress on is Tuchel does not like his bosses interfering in his work.

 

Thats hard shit for tuchel. One way or another this will end in tears away is my guess.

 

I want him nowhere near my national side. This is wildly disrespectful and any offer to represent us should be rescinded. He should forget international football.

To start, this is a player who has no hope of ever representing England again. I know one or two users on here think there's a shot and are going to think about arguing this point, but don't - you're wrong. He's done. He's too toxic. That's clear to just about anyone with eyes. Even if a coach were open to the idea (doubt it), there's simply no way the FA would allow it, and as talented as he is he just doesn't have the quality to tempt anyone involved here to push to make exceptions. The English player pool is just too strong and too deep. He'd have to be prime Messi to even get the conversation started (he isn't) and even then it'd be a coin flip.

The fact that he doesn't seem to realize this says a lot. It tells me he and/or his team are delusional, stupid, or both. But, more than anything, it says that he is not committed to Jamaica and probably never will be.

Jamaica offered him a chance when he was persona non-grata in his birth country, when most of his fellow citizens didn't even want him to continue playing professionally, much less for a national side on a world cup stage. He has England seniors publicly (allegedly, anyway), calling him names during matches.

Jamaica stepped in to offer him a very clear path to an international career and maybe multiple future world cup appearances despite all of this.

The least he could do was keep this talk out of the public eye. I understand players trying to see where they stand before finally committing. England is a global super power, we are not. Players will more often than not choose to exhaust their options before giving up on a chance like that with a super power. That is what it is and we're not delusional enough to pretend otherwise.

But to come out like this, publicly? "I'm gonna beg the new England coach to see where I stand and if that doesn't work out, I guess I'll just join Jamaica and get to the World Cup that way"? Especially given how clear it is what the answer will be? It's unnecessary, stupid, and an insult, and it shows an especially high level of disregard for the opportunity being offered.

Oh no, do rest assured: there is no slack here. I hate this and I don't want either player representing us.

Now, some of you might say (let me pre-empt you now, because I know it's coming): "That's funny Athlone, this guy did some pretty bad things that were caught on tape and that wasn't an issue before for you, but now that he seems uncommitted to playing THAT is the red line?"

Yes, that's where it is. I would have had no problem with the second chance narrative. He would be far from the first high profile Jamaican, footballer or otherwise, to receive such a second chance, and I did not think him any less deserving of that shot than anyone who came before him. If he had put his head down, said the right things, showed some commitment and more maturity, I was ok with it.

We aren't getting any of that, so he can go away.

 

Part of the reason I'm hard on these players is because I know what's on the table and what we're worth.

Jamaica is going to the next world cup.

I may eat crow on that in 18 months but I know, more likely than not, that I am probably right. With expansion, our odds of qualifying are legitimately strong in CONCACAF. This cycle, for example, Panama and Costa Rica are the other two sides in the region that constitute the current top 3. We won't have to face either of them in on the road to WC 2026 (they will be seeded into different groups), nor the Americans, Canadians, or Mexicans. Our closest competition is Honduras, against whom we have been unbeaten in 8 games.

It's as close to a slam dunk as we're going to get. And beyond 2026, with 6 spots available to CONCACAF, we're in a good position even with the USA/MEX/Canada trio back involved.

So what we're offering players is significant. It's a chance to play at a high level, and go to the biggest stage multiple times (if you're young enough), and get a lot of quality matches in between (Gold Cups, Nations League, occasional Copa America, etc). We're not a minnow offering a couple of shootarounds on cricket pitches against Bahamas and Anguilla as our best foot forward. There's real value to representing Jamaica.

And, most importantly: we can make all of this happen with the player pool as is. We already have a very solid core of both Jamaican-born and foreign-born Jamaicans. It's a group that could get significantly better at key spots (hence the recruiting effort), but is solid, experienced, and knows each other well. And it is, on paper, already good enough to take down most of our opposition. So we have somewhat of a luxury here of not needing to beg every single decent player to have a shot.

It is one thing when players blew us off before and we didn't do anything or go anywhere after. It will be another when those same players have to sit back and watch the team on a summer World Cup stage they themselves know full well they could have been on. Some of them still won't care, sure, but quite a few of these guys are going to have a regret or two that wasn't there before, when Jamaica wasn't reaching that level.

In short, what we offer now is more valuable and more people will regret missing out on it than before. We should start acting the part by taking a hard line and dismissing folks who don't recognize this. Their decisions are theirs and they are welcome to them, but this stupid thing many fans of smaller countries do (it's not just a Jamaican affliction, to be fair) with all the begging, pleading, and chasing players who really could give a damn about their country ought to stop. It's pathetic and it's unnecessary, and it sends a bad message to fans and our current players.

Greenwood and Hutchinson made their decisions. They are fair decisions, and fully respected. Decisions have consequences, and here the consequences should be a closed door. Rather than continue to beg as though what we offer isn't valuable enough to be taken without us desperately whining and pleading for someone to do it, we need to decisively move on and focus on other players who want that opportunity and recognize what its worth. There are plenty of them.