English players Dual Nationality thread #2

Discussion in 'England' started by roverman, Sep 26, 2020.

  1. Athlone

    Athlone Member+

    Feb 2, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Jamaica
    Ok, first, I need a little more credit here - I have never been unrealistic about Hutchinson. I have predicted this outcome with Hutchinson for over a year now, in this very thread (multiple of the users in here can vouch for that). It was obvious from a mile away, and accepted. You can see the posts below, going back 18 months. I've been straightforward and realistic on this topic consistently, I don't think it's fair given that track record to write me off as a whiny, unrealistic hypocrite on this topic now.

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/e...ality-thread-2.2111677/page-121#post-41262775

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/e...ality-thread-2.2111677/page-202#post-42044172

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/e...ality-thread-2.2111677/page-209#post-42092394

    We got jerked around a bit and it's not fun - he had the potential to be a key player, we had him, and then we didn't, and that doesn't inspire a lot of warm fuzzy feelings. I admit this But as I said in my last post, "win some, lose some". It is what it is. I can accept it and concede the inevitability of such cases (as I did in my last post) and still be disappointed. I'm not obligated to both accept the reality for what it is AND be excited about it.

    I don't think the move was that cynical on our end - you think it is because you don't appreciate how bad we are relative to most larger countries. He was highly rated and we do not have a deep player pool. Jamaica is the type of side where, depending on the position, a highly rated EPL youth player without much, if any, senior experience can legitimately rise to the top of the player pool.

    The idea of an EPL 2 player getting real competitive minutes on merit is absurd to an England fan, but it's a reality for us - we just don't have the same depth. That is how a player like Dexter Lembikisa, who was a 19 year old youth player at Wolves when he won his first cap for Jamaica in March 2023 (in a game that also included Hutchinson), has now earned 20 caps and become a regular starter. We just didn't have that much depth at right back - the door was open and he ran through it. He wasn't a cynical cap tie attempt, he was a REAL contender for playing time at RB, from the start.

    Hutchinson was more than good enough to play for us on merit when first approached - that's the truth. And there are many more EPL Youth players who could do the same. That's more a comment on the quality of our player pool (specifically, the lack of real depth) than any cynicism.

    As to holding it against him, I don't see an issue with wanting more committed players in the pool. Yes, losses like these are inevitable and yes, his decision is understandable and should be respected. That doesn't mean, again, that we need to smile about it and roll out the red carpet for him if it falls through for him later.

    The irony is that I made a post in another thread two days back on weakened FIFA eligibility that touched on exactly this topic:

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...eral-discussion.1946720/page-34#post-42571589

    In this thread, I advocate for much looser FIFA rules than currently exist, and received pushback specifically on the point about how this is a two way street.

    All that is to say, I'm fully aware of the dynamics here. These looser rules will benefit us more often than not, but this kind of thing is inevitable and we will occasionally lose out. I accept that reality when it comes (this won't be the last time). But again: that doesn't mean I have to smile about it. We can take it on the chin and move on.
     
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  2. Athlone

    Athlone Member+

    Feb 2, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Jamaica
    In less exciting (from an England perspective) dual national news: Lewis Baker is now formally expected to commit to Jamaica.

    Greenwood and Reiss Nelson are both still in process, and Isaac Hayden rumoured to follow Baker soon.

    https://tbrfootball.com/newcastle-a...ance-as-they-change-international-allegiance/

     
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  3. Crvena Zvezda

    Crvena Zvezda Member

    Manchester United
    England
    Apr 11, 2017
    Greenwood has not submitted request for change yet and I think you've been saying quite a while now Nelson was going to be but he may still have an England future.
    In terms of Jamaica not having enough talent, that is a natural reflection of the country not producing enough quality footballers. The best solution to this is to work on producing better footballers. Other nations manage it, including poor ones.
    Recruiting a bunch of English players whose grandparents chose to leave there several decades ago is just a lazy way to go about it, and you deserve to have your fingers burnt sometimes by relying on it. Its not exactly fair on genuine Jamaicans as well who see their place in the team blocked by English recruits who have never lived there.
     
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  4. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    The Sun who from previous articles appear to get briefings from his agent or family said he was about to submit weeks ago.
     
  5. Crvena Zvezda

    Crvena Zvezda Member

    Manchester United
    England
    Apr 11, 2017
    True but FIFA said just a few days ago no application has been received, so maybe he's stalling. Hasn't been in such hot form for Marseille lately though. Maybe its a distraction for him
     
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  6. Athlone

    Athlone Member+

    Feb 2, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Jamaica
    That is completely correct. 100%.

    The problem here is that there is no path to enhancing that production that does not involve integrating Jamaica's diaspora quite heavily.

    I've had this argument here before so will spare everyone a long rehash. The bottom line summary is:

    1. Jamaica must produce better talent domestically for sustainable success
    2. Jamaica does not have the capital to do this effectively, or many means to generate such capital domestically (ex: small local economy, no large TV market to sustain a fully professional domestic league).
    3. Jamaica has some of the largest emigration outflows, as a percentage of domestic population, on the planet.

    With the large increase in quality provided by the diaspora, along with policy changes at the FIFA level that facilitate greater inflow of capital to Jamaica and similarly small federations PLUS the dirty work done at the grassroots level locally (better education of coaches locally, upping fitness/nutrition standards, etc), we can fix problem 2 above, which will then allow us to achieve the goal in item 1. Item 3 will always be a problem, we can't stop it, but we can mitigate its impacts via items 1 and 2 and continued integration of dual nationals in the future (even if we do it less often than today as local talent improves).

    We have to take an all-of-the-above approach to grow.

    This is not about laziness. Half of our population resides outside the country. We cannot ignore our diaspora. England, a global super power with more people coming than going, can do this. Other developing nations with larger economies and fewer emigrants per capita can do this. We just can't.

    And that's not just in football, btw. Every initiative to elevate Jamaica in every facet relies heavily on the diaspora - from education, to healthcare, to economic and political reform, etc. It is just a fact of our existence, football merely reflects that (which is what makes the game remarkable, btw - few sports really mirror a countries realities, goals, challenges, aspirations, etc the way football does).

    Diasporans are not less genuine by default. Our national identity doesn't work like that. It's also a mixed bag as far as diasporan genuineness goes - some are more dedicated than others.

    That said, I agree that it would be better for everyone if we could ensure that no less than genuine diasporan wears the shirt ahead of a born Jamaican who wants to represent the island. As we elevate and improve domestic development with coming generations, that will become less of a problem.
     
  7. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    #6232 Fireburn47, Oct 9, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2024
    I would imagine many of the English born Jamaicans players will also support England as well as Jamaica and have mixed identities compared many countries where lot of the duals very much identify with the heritage nation as the main part of their identity. I haven’t really come across many people born in the UK of Caribbean heritage who see themselves as primarily Caribbean.

    An example might be one of Jamaica’s flag bearers at the Olympics in Paris was a diver called Yona Knight-Wisdom who is Leeds born and raised and he was posting during the Euros about how stressful watching England had been,

    How much stronger would the regional football scene be if football was like Cricket and a West Indies team existed. Players like the Willock brothers would be very viable dual options but Chris and particularly Joe are probably not going to play for Montserrat.
     
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  8. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    I don't know why some people struggle with the idea of mixed national identities. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of players that play for nations just because they want a sumer jolly at an international tournament but it is possible and plausible to feel connected to more than one nation.
     
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  9. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    Greenwood will not play for England ever again. I'm sceptical he'll even be good enough to get in the squad on merit, he certainly isn't now. Reiss Nelson is 24 and has never proven himself to be Premier League starter. He needs to secure at starting berth at Fulham first.
     
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  10. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
  11. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
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  12. itfcjoe

    itfcjoe Member+

    Oct 8, 2014
    Club:
    Ipswich Town FC
    He played a couple of nothing friendlies, he's hardly wasted that much time. He was turning down both England and Jamaica all last season as didn't know which way to go as was genuinely toen
     
  13. TRS-T

    TRS-T Member

    Aug 21, 2014
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Jamaica are just another England B Team now, especially with Steve McClaren now their manager.
     
  14. Athlone

    Athlone Member+

    Feb 2, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Jamaica
    I disagree but it doesn't really matter. Like I said, win some, lose some.
     
  15. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    They're most England B team ever. In a few years there'll be very few native born Jamaicans turning out for them.
     
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  16. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    I don’t think they will be that bothered either to be honest. Wasn’t it Morocco that played an entire French born eleven not too long ago?
     
  17. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    I'm not saying they'll be bothered but we've not seen this before. Ireland, Nigeria and Wales have had a lot of English players at times but still produced some of their own. There are a few African teams that are nearly all French. I think Senegal use a crazy number of French players.
     
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  18. Athlone

    Athlone Member+

    Feb 2, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Jamaica
    Jamaica fielded 14 players altogether last night, 6 English-born, 1 born in New York, the rest born in Jamaica. Jamaica has fielded teams with fewer Jamaican born players than that several times going back a decade or so.

    The implication here is that Jamaica's use of dual nationals has accelerated a lot but the truth is, it's about what it's always been. We see 6-9 of the 14-16 players fielded born outside the island and that's probably what we will continue to see in the future.
     
  19. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    That's why I said 'in a few years'. It's the direction of travel I perceive to be happening. I can only think Bailey (who is mediocre at best) that could get in the conversation for Jamaica if another 10-15 English Jamaicans that can't get in the England squad switched. I think Jamaica fielding a team with no native born and developed players in an inevitability
     
  20. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    Probably Algeria or Tunisia if it happened. Morocco’s best non home born players are mainly born in the Netherlands or Spain.
     
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  21. Athlone

    Athlone Member+

    Feb 2, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Jamaica
    I understand why one might perceive that direction of travel, but I do follow the team pretty closely and I'm telling you it's not happening. The squads haven't been getting more heavily foreign-born over time, it's been the going up and down in the same range for 10-15 years. We fielded more English players in the heart of 2022 World Cup qualifiers, for example, than we did last night.

    It's certainly possible to see a Jamaica team with no native-born players. It's pretty unlikely, however.

    To start, both Bailey and Blake would have to be out of the picture, at a minimum. There is no foreign born Jamaican GK good enough to supplant Blake (who will probably be around beyond 2030) and Bailey is too good, so we need an injury.

    Then, you'd have to find a way to knock some of the best locally born rotation players out of the 16 man equation. That's easy at some positions where we produce very limited talent domestically (ex: central midfield) and good PL2 youth players can compete for jobs, but it's tough at others where Jamaica produces well (ex: pacy attackers/wingers). Forcing a player like Norman Campbell or Shamar Nicholson out of the 16 man rotation would require us not just to bring in a lot of English-Jamaicans, but they'd all need to be VERY good (likely EPL level or very top of the EFL/borderline EPL caliber). History says that we just don't get many of those guys to commit, and there aren't that many available to begin with.

    So sure, what you're saying is theoretically possible, but it's just not likely and I don't see us any closer to it than we were in 2015 or 2012.
     
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  22. ADM99

    ADM99 Member+

    Apr 28, 2019
    No idea about the reliability of the source.

    1844723781589250463 is not a valid tweet id
     
  23. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    All well and good but you I think misunderstand what I said. I said it will be mostly non-native born players and a Jamaica lineup with no native born players is an inevitability, meaning an XI (not including the bench) in a given game. I don't mean that Jamaica will cease to have or play native born players altogether.
     
  24. Athlone

    Athlone Member+

    Feb 2, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Jamaica
    Your original post wasn't really that clear on specifying the starting XI, to be fair - I read "I think Jamaica fielding a team with no native born and developed players in an inevitability", and assumed that team included subs too. That said, this doesn't change my argument much - you'd still need to replace Blake and Bailey and several of the better Jamaican-born "next men up" in the rotation (who would otherwise side into the XI pretty regularly) to ensure this.

    This won't happen with just another dozen English Jamaicans of any level committing. It is only theoretically possible if we get ALL of the biggest named, EPL/borderline EPL caliber diasporans to agree to appear for Jamaica all at once (both Ramseys, Cam Archer, Tyrick Mitchell, K. Walker-Peters, Rico Henry, Reiss Nelson, etc - basically all the guys with a hint of an England future).

    That would be very cool...but it is probably not going to happen, and even in that scenario we still need Blake and Bailey to both get hurt. Bailey may be mediocre to you but the only players who are arguably a step above him already play for England. Blake is harder still, as there are no strong GK candidates in the diaspora playing above League 2 (and we already have Jamaican-born GKs who play that level of ball and would be next man up for Blake).

    TL;DR: It's not an inevitability at all. I wouldn't be mad if it was (because it would mean the Ramsey/Archer/Mitchell/Gibbs-White tier players are committing to Jamaica in numbers), but it isn't.
     
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  25. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    With Tuchei likely to become the manager I wonder if Hudson - Odoi will switch to Ghana as he will know he won’t be given a chance under Tuchei considering he didn’t rate him at Chelsea.
     

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