English players Dual Nationality thread #2

Discussion in 'England' started by roverman, Sep 26, 2020.

  1. Inter Row Z

    Inter Row Z Member+

    Oldham Athletic
    England
    Mar 26, 2023
    Let's not forget it was Pep who inspired Klopp, Arteta and others to start using inverted full backs in the first place. Think back to the damage he caused by having João Cancelo first come inside and you just know that he'd turn Trent into a one man human wrecking ball.
     
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  2. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    I don't think Walker's a freak of a defender. I think he's been a freak of an athlete but his pure defensive ability for me is somewhat overrated. His positional sense in terms of cutting out passes on his side and knowing how to nullify switches from the opposite wing is pretty poor. Trent has actually targeted that a few times in City vs. Pool games. It's normal for someone with his level athleticism to become reliant on it and eschew development of more fundamental skills.

    I'm not in any way saying he's a poor or average player; he's obviously been a top, top right-back but I don't think he's on Trent's level.
     
  3. roverman

    roverman Member+

    Dec 22, 2001
    His passing ability is vastly underrated
     
  4. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    Pep dropped Walker for the Champions League final last season.
     
  5. roverman

    roverman Member+

    Dec 22, 2001
    Vinicius Jr said he's the best opponent he's ever faced
     
  6. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Yeah, was about to say something similar but I think Vini and Mbappe would back up your claims. Don’t get me wrong, I think Trent is a terrific player but completely different from Walker but I wouldn’t swap Walker for Trent. Lost count the amount of times that Walker has saved us from certain goals is unreal. He’s still got another year or two left at the top imo.
     
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  7. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    Vini and Mbappé are going to say that because they're going to judge the question purely off 1v1 ability which is where Walker excels. They don't take into account the tonnes of other things that come with playing the position when faced with that question.

    I'd strongly argue that the preference for players like Walker over Trent is part of the mentality that's led us to win nothing for so long.
     
  8. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    I'm curious why you think Guardiola has left Walker a central part of his side all these years at City? He could sign almost any other player, certainly a much better "footballer" in technical terms but he hasn't and Walker has consistently been a key player.

    I think you're underrating just how useful it is to a team to have a defender who can shut down the best players in the world, and also provide tremendous cover for the centre backs.

    You said earlier in this country we're too focussed on what players can't do instead of what they can, but I think you're doing the same with Walker here. Laser focus on his weaknesses over the fact he's a crucial player to one of the best teams of all time for a reason.
     
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  9. Jenks

    Jenks Member+

    Feb 16, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    He had his Trent in Cancelo, and got rid of him.
     
  10. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    I just called Walker a "top, top right-back". I'm not arguing he's a poor player. I can think Walker is a top four or five right-back on the planet and still think he's not on Trent's level. The past decade hasn't exactly been golden age for right-backs globally and most of the best ones have been English, so I don't really think it would've been that easy for Pep to just bin Walker off despite his deficiencies.

    To me, the Walker > Trent claim is just a focus on stopping other teams doing what they want to do rather than being brave and letting your own talented players take the game to the opponent in high-stakes, high-pressure matches, which is what we as a country have always been too scared to do.

    Cancelo is nowhere near as good as Trent imo. Cancelo is legitimately a bad defender and is very much the liability some people pretend Trent is. Cancelo's defensive skills are non-existent at times.
     
  11. Inter Row Z

    Inter Row Z Member+

    Oldham Athletic
    England
    Mar 26, 2023
    He got rid of Cancello because he spat his dummy out when Pep dropped him for Rico Lewis and then went moaning to the other players. If Guardiola had dismissed the idea of using mobile defenders he wouldn't still be deploying John Stones or Lewis in that role.
     
  12. Gaz811

    Gaz811 Member+

    Everton FC
    England
    Oct 15, 2018
    Walker must be one of the best athleles ever to play football. He's hardly ever injuried' is one of the fastest players in the world over the last 10 years and hasn't lost a yard of pace at nearly 34.
     
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  13. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    He's still fast but I think he's slowed down a little bit. He said so himself in that interview he did with Ferdinand a couple of weeks back. But yeah, definitely one of the best athletes the sport has seen.
     
  14. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    #5389 AJ123, Apr 20, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2024
    Walker was voted into the world team of the year by his fellow pros last season. He obviously has big respect within the game. Guardiola could've replaced him with a more attacking player if he wanted. In fact he dissuaded him from leaving to Bayern last summer.
     
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  15. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    And he was voted by his City team mates to be captain ahead of De Bruyne who was expected to become the captain.
     
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  16. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    #5391 MrSnrub, Apr 21, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2024
    I get that, I don't thinks saying you think TAA is better is some kind of indefensible opinion, but I do think its very unfair to hold Walker up as a symbol of England's deficiencies for playing above TAA when he's been a consistent feature for 7 years now in the most technically advanced team in English football history.

    I also think you have to consider that TAA's a very good player but his output and impact is very oversized at Liverpool compared to what you'd expect elsewhere. Liverpool have been pretty unique among the top clubs in regularly playing 3 grafters in midfield and enabling a huge amount of play through their full backs, I don't think many top teams, certainly not City would ever consider a midfield like the make up Henderson - Fabinho - Wijnaldum to be first choice. In a team who prefer to play through the midfield the balance between Walker and TAA shifts a lot.
     
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  17. Jenks

    Jenks Member+

    Feb 16, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    I don't think there are many managers who would pick TAA over Walker to be honest, and I would include Klopp in that. I think if he had Walker in his squad, then he'd work TAA into a right sided #8 position.
     
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  18. fan since 1968

    fan since 1968 New Member

    Manchester City
    England
    Aug 27, 2019
    Not a chance
     
  19. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    Yeah fair enough, it's harsh on Walker to frame it the way I did. It's more Southgate's complete neglect of Trent that brings the more regressive aspects of our football culture to the surface, especially when he uses an equally workmanlike midfield to the one you named above.

    I do disagree about Trent's impact though, I think it's huge. He's an answer to a high press, a midblock and a lowblock. For me, he's genuinely one of the top three weapons in the league and his presence hugely affects how opposition teams set up.

    I also don't think you need to play an industrious midfield just to accommodate Trent. Plenty of teams have won Champions Leagues and league titles using offensive full-backs with equal or even worse defensive acumen than Trent. Like, would Real Madrid have swapped Marcelo for prime Ashley Cole? No way, and Marcelo was a much, much worse defender than Trent has ever been, but like Trent he's an attacking phenom.
     
  20. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    This isn't in any way an indictment of Walker but I think Klopp is the one manager who would be least likely to take Walker full stop. His full-backs have always been a very big part of the way he attacks, his Dortmund side basically played in a 2-2-6 in possession, and Walker just offers next to nothing in the final 3rd. The only way I could see him using Walker is if he had a Trent equivalent at left-back.
     
  21. roverman

    roverman Member+

    Dec 22, 2001
    Before he joined city walker was bombing forward at spurs game after game. Pep utilises players differently. Grealish could beat players for fun at villa. At city he has a different game set. Duff at rovers was fantastic at beating players and like pep mourinho played him different.
     
  22. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    He might've bombed forward but he's never been good in the final 3rd. Never has he consistently provided attacking quality in the final 3rd.
     
  23. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    Will be interesting to see if Olise is a wildcard for the French squad in the summer. Deschamps certainly isn't the kind of guy who'd cap a dual national for the sake of it but i'd say on a talent basis he's somewhat better than Diaby who seems a squad certainty in the same position.
     
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  24. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    United won the u18s league in impressive fashion this season. There are two English born defenders in the squad, Louis Jackson and Jack Kingdon, that are playing for Scotland. Jackson has played for England in the past. Does anyone know how good they are and if we need to be trying to convince them to play for us?
     
  25. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    Jackson is on the bench at Wembley today
     
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