I just watched the gorgeous RAI documentary Sogno Azzurro, which shows day by day the backstage of this conquest; the players, Mancini, the other members of the delegation, the struggles, the joy, the camaraderie... Literally it brought tears to my eyes. Extraordinary. Two interesting points. Clearly Mancini feared Spain the most. He started his lecture before the game, saying to the players, "in the World Cup maybe we will win, maybe they will win." This matches my own assessment. Before the game against England though, Mancini was very relaxed. He wrote down the formation on the board then said "I won't say anything. You know what you need to do. You're the best." All previous games Mancini wrote down the strategy, went over the tactics, talked specifically about the opponents, and so forth. Against England, just, "you go out there and do what you do." I love it. So much for our players' talent not being the decisive factor, like this other poster here kept saying. Mancini showed enormous respect for his players. "Nothing to say to you; you're the best." Indeed, Mancini!
I don’t think that Spain’s midfield is actually better than our really. We really have the edge with talent and depth. However, the problem is that Spain is just a masterclass with possession and they really know how to keep and possess the ball better than any other team. I think we might need to play a little differently against Spain if we play them in Qatar. Maybe change tactics a bit? I think is best to just accept that Spain will really see a lot more of the ball than us and just try and pressure the midfield, play very physically and look for the opportunities to attack and hit them on the counters and set pieces when we can. Like Allegri’s Juventus used to play. How about we use a 3-5-2 against Spain? -Insigne-Berardi- -Spinazzola-Locatelli-Jorginho-Barella-Chiesa- -Chiellini-Bonucci-Bastoni- -Donnarumma- In a game like this, maybe we bench Verratti because we need a lot more box-to-box and physicality in midfield and less playmaking in a game like this. Spain are not a fast team so Spinazzola and Chiesa and probably hold it on the flanks. Then Moving Insigne and Berardi up top towards goal would probably help us a lot. What’s your take on this?
I love it. You know, we'll play Spain in the semis of the Nations League on the 6th of October. Maybe we should put your theory to the test, then. Write a letter to Mancini! I'm not sure if Spina will be ready by then. An Achilles Tendon rupture takes some 4 months to heal (and it is possible to take up to 12 months, actually, but I think in the case of a world-class athlete like Spina, he will recover sooner but in October he'll be about to hit the 4-month timeline and will probably be coming back to training and conditioning but won't be ready to play). I wonder how Nicolò Zaniolo is doing after his ACL tear. He is another one who could be a sub for Verratti. In mid-April it was seen that Zaniolo had 10% less muscle mass in his left leg (the site of his knee injury) and that's why he wasn't able to return for the Euro. The problem supposedly happened because he had to skip rehab sessions due to the pandemic. It would appear, then, that he'll be in full form in October. He's a good trequartista and could give more support to Insigne and Berardi in your formation; another option instead of Locatelli. The problem with Spinazzola not being there for the Spain game in October is that Emerson is not as good at supporting the offense. I think Spina is kind of irreplaceable, so we won't fully know about the potential of this formation until he is back.
Oh yeah I'm not sure if Spinazzola will be ready for the Nations League. Emerson definitely cannot play there in a 3-5-2. He is not that type of player. If Spinazzola isn't fully fit yet, we'll have to use Florenzi. Only other player we have that will be ok for that position. He is aging which is the concern. Yeah, I am not quite sure where Zaniolo's best position is but we could try him as well for Locatelli maybe? Its been a while since I've last seen Zaniolo play actually.
Yes, that's what I said, Zaniolo for Locatelli. I think the kid is quite good and he is more of an attacking midfielder than Locatelli. People saw that Locatelli scored two goals but that was a bit atypical of him, he is rather a bit shy in terms of coming forward. He acknowledges as much in this documentary Sogno Azzurro, that normally he wouldn't have tried to score but somehow he felt like it. Zaniolo of course is very young (needs more development) and seems to be injury-prone. This was his second ACL rupture. So I'm not sure what will be made of him. We'll see.
Spain is on the verge of being unstoppable again, i hope i'm wrong but they have a really young talented team.
What??? Honestly I really disagree with this. That Spain we saw in Euro 2020 I felt was one of the worst Spanish sides in ages. They did have some young talent but nothing like Spain 2008-2012. They’re very good at possession but rarely do anything with it against decent teams. I think you’re really overestimating them. They definitely deserved to beat Croatia but it was a tight game. The only reason they even tied with Switzerland in regular time was due to a deflected goal. They even struggled in the group stage before facing Slovakia. I honestly believe that Spain WC 2014 was better than Spain Euro 2020.
Well, maybe Johnny6 is overestimating Spain, but you may be underestimating them. Sure, they struggled a bit to get going in Euro 2020, but get going they did... and given that we're the best team, Spain being the only team that actually threatened us (I don't consider that England was a threat), speaks in their favor. Yes, we had a couple of other tough games (Austria, Belgium) but we solved those games; the game against Spain, oh boy, that was a tough one in which we got outplayed during some stretches of the game, and we only prevailed in the penalty shootout. Also, it's interesting that Mancini made the following prevision, during the Rai documentary Sogno Azzurro: "either Spain will win the World Cup, or we will." Then after a pause, he added in a somewhat dismissive tone "or some other team" to be politically correct, but clearly he sees Italy and Spain as the favorites for Qatar (if he had really intended to say "or some other team" his statement would have made no sense as a prevision, so why say anything at all, because of course some team will have to win and saying it like this is no prevision at all, but to me it is clear that he meant we are the two favorites, but he doesn't want to appear arrogant so he added the other phrase to make it PC. We'll have more clarity on this on October 6th when we face them again for the semifinal of the Nations League. Unfortunately we won't have Spina back by then, but it will be an interesting test anyway. Part of the reason why Spain had ups and downs in their Euro 2020 performance is because they were a young team with most players facing these high stakes for the first time in their careers. But make no mistake, they are good, and they will probably be even better in Qatar as their young players mature for 17 additional months.
Maybe Spain might be better in 2018 though. I don't know, many people like to say that Spain played better than us in that game but I feel it was 50-50. They made some terrible mistakes at the back in the first half that we could've done better and capitalized on. Also that was one game. I honestly think that they matched us in that game was more due to tactical stuff than them actually being better than us. Enrique had a good plan, and I think one of our issues as well was that we were kind of stuck to playing one way and didn't have diversity of Plan B or Plan C. This will come over time, but remember this was only Mancini's first tournament with us as a national team. I think as time goes on, we will get better and have better Plan B and Plan C.
I think you meant 2022 instead of 2018, no? Yes, I agree that we played better than it seemed, in the game against Spain. But what I'm saying is, they did match us and even outplayed us in stretches. Yes, their formation overwhelmed ours and Mancini atypically didn't have much of a response. I think he will have learned the lesson and we'll actually do better on October 6th, but we'll see. Well, technically Mancini has managed the team through official tournaments: Nations League, and Euro qualifiers. Anyway, I think he is an excellent manager and he tends to correct what is wrong in half time; but I think he was caught a bit by surprise by Enrique this time. It won't happen again, though, because Mancini will be prepared, next time.
For @conquistador82 It will bring tears to his eyes, like it did ours. Maybe for different reasons, but the tears will heal
We will always have good battles with them. I'm looking forward to October. Nations League is largely meaningless, but in pursuit of a title it's at least meaningful enough for both teams to put their best foot forward, so we can expect to know how well we match up against them and also litmus test for 1 year into the future. I respect Spain, but do not fear them.
Oh yes, 2022, LOL. Yeah Mancini is a great manager, but you still learn regardless. Honestly, I don't consider the Nations League an official tournament. It's kind of like the Coppa Italia of national teams. Many teams don't take it seriously or field their best starting 11. But we can definitely use it to improve the team.
Yes, but Mancini also coached us in the first 3 games of the World Cup qualifiers and that's darn important. 3 victories, 6 goals scored, none conceded. In this documentary I was mentioning, it is clear that the Azzurri are taking the Nations League very seriously; that's smarting up from the 2018 fiasco; the Nations League provides another path to qualify at least for the playoff for the World Cup if due to some weird set of circumstances we fail to qualify simply through our group. But yes, if not for this circumstance, it's like Coppa Italia. If I understand correctly the Nations League will happen every two years, so the next edition, this incentive to acquire another way to qualify for the World Cup won't be there, and the tournament will be even more meaningless. But this edition, the Azzurri are taking it seriously. And one year before Qatar I'm sure that Spain will want to take this game seriously too, in order to put to test some plan to beat us.
Yes but World Cup Qualification isn't a major tournament. We play teams that are mostly inferior to us so they are not real tests to be honest. We are playing seriously, but we weren't really tested if you know what I mean. LOL, us FAILING to qualify for WC through our group? I doubt that. Our group is not that hard with Switzerland really only the real threat and they are still inferior to us. We beat this team 3-0. I do think us and Spain will both take the Nations League seriously to a certain degree but not 100%. We might be experimenting a bit and so will them. Next Nations League will be connected to qualifying for Euro 2024. Even Coppa Italia, I feel like some teams take it seriously to a certain degree as well but not by 100%.
Well, never say never. In 2018, sure, we had Spain in our group, but otherwise, we had Albania, Israel, Macedonia, and Liechtenstein. Then we went to the playoffs and lost to Sweden. Out. Ouch. So, yes, I'm confident we'll make it this time, but who knows, s...t happens, maybe some weird penalty called against us, we lose a couple of essential players to injury... have a series of bad results... better safe than sorry. But that's why I said "a weird set of circumstances." So the Azzurri are being prudent in securing another path in advance. Otherwise I agree with what you said. It's an excess of prudence because even if we were to fall behind Switzerland we'd still qualify for the playoffs through the group, because there is just no way we'll end the group behind Northern Ireland, Bulgaria or Lithuania. Regarding Coppa Italia I sometimes root *against* my club, thinking "let's get eliminated from Coppa Italia as soon as possible so that we can focus on Serie A and avoid the wear and tear and injuries of being involved in multiple tournaments." The season is too full of games and when you think of the three competitions, Serie A, Europa League/Champions League, and Coppa Italia, easily the latter is the one to be dismissed. Fine, I'm OK with Milan playing Coppa Italia but would rather have only subs lined up for Coppa Italia games. One of the reasons why we fell behind Inter in Serie A after having dominated the first half of the season, was that we collected too many injuries. So, the fewer games, the better, to avoid a repeat. Even Europa League, meh. Of course the Champions League is another story and this time we have qualified for it, so this season we must focus on the Serie A and the Champions League and completely dismiss Coppa Italia. I hope Pioli only sends subs to Coppa Italia games. I don't know why UEFA felt the need to add still another competition for national teams, making it fairly meaningless (two top teams qualifying for the WC qualifiers playoffs is not enough to motivate teams). They could have made it meaningful with a very easy fix: just have the champions qualify directly to the World Cup. Then make the silver and bronze medalists qualify for the WC qualifiers playoff. All teams would try hard, due to the top prize, and the two consolation prizes, making the bronze medal game kind of meaningful too as the 4th placed team would earn nothing. And it wouldn't be unfair, because if we have a *meaningful* Nations League with the top teams trying hard, then having these WC qualifications through this tournament would be accurate. In non WC years, do the same for the Euro (or a bit more because the Euro has a larger number of spots).
Italy had a midfield that was comparable to Spain's. There's very little that separates Koke, Pedri and Busquets from Jorginho, Veratti and Barella, But Mancini reverted to type: Italy was defensive and acquiesced to Spanish dominance of the ball. It was the safer bet. Maybe if Italy had more pace at the back, Mancini might have been more confident of challenging Spain more at their own game.
Spain forced it with their high press. What was different between Spain and England was our back didn't risk trying to pass through Spain's high press, whereas they had no concern passing through England's high press. Some of the tactics you think were our choice, were not, some were. You play other teams strengths and weaknesses. We knew if we ran at Spain's defense they crumbled more easily than Englands. Over the top the ball went and despite Immobile not getting a goal, he created two or three moments of chaos for them, one resulted in Chiesa getting enough time on the ball to score. With England we were able to pass into dangerous errors and then hope one of the 8 defenders would mess up and we'd have enough time to pull a goal. Chiesa almost got that done too.
Verratti is a good bit better than Koke and Pedri (not combined but individually). Jorginho and Busquets are pretty comparable and level, although Busquets is aging a bit and not as fast as he used to be. Him at his prime though was one of the best midfielders in history. Barella is probably pretty comparable to Koke and Pedri. Although, its a little hard to compare because Verratti is a playmaker, and both Koke and Pedri are box-to-box midfielders. Playmakers and Box-to-Box Midfielders are quite different and really not easy to compare.
In all honesty we really were a terrible team under Giampiero Ventura and didn't even look convincing at all. In almost every game under him, we played quite scared and always looked vulnerable. Our midfield was nonexistent. The only games we even looked good under Ventura was our VERY first game against Israel that we won 3-1 and the games against Liechtenstein. Common, Liechtenstein is arguably one of the weakest teams in Europe if not the weakest. Israel is below average, and in fact the second game against Israel at home, we barely even beat them. We scraped out a 1-0 win and really did not even look like the better team at all. Against Spain, our first game that we tied 1-1 was a disaster. Spain dominated us the whole first half in our own backyard. We had no possession at all and played so fearful. I only even remember us getting out of our half twice in the whole first 45 min. We stepped it up in the second half and played better but still no shots on target and only tied the game by a penalty. We were very lucky that Romagnoli was having the game of his life in defense because otherwise Spain would've beaten us 3-0 at home that game. And our second game against Spain in Spain, you know it, we lost 3-0 and were clearly inferior to them. Even against Albania, we did not beat them convincingly at all. In the first game that we won 2-0, we only took the lead through a penalty, and added a second through a lucky Immobile header later in the game. We didn't outplay them though. They had some dangerous chances that they failed to convert. Second game vs Albania, we were very lucky that Candreva found the breakthrough but we definitely did not outplay them in that game either. And you know it against Macedonia. Even the first game against Macedonia, we left space wide open on the counterattack with no midfield. Against Sweden, we had hardly any shots on target in the first leg. I saw nothing on goal. In the second leg, we definitely dominated but the fact that we could not breakthrough is just embarrassing. Let's face it, we were terrible under Ventura.
Yes, that was painful. Such a difference, now! What a recovery! Mancini has been very helpful and our players have a totally different fighting spirit, now.
Yeah definitely! So happy we have Mancini as our manager and he has really transformed this team. I also gotta say that Conte was a great manager for us, but one thing I think he could've done better was think ahead a bit and planned for the future. I felt that he didn't always start the best players we had. To be fair, many of our really good players just started to find form in the season prior to Euro 2016 and I think Conte just worked on so much tactically that he didn't think the younger players could tactically adjust in time to really make a difference, but I always wonder if he could've handled it better. Conte really went a lot with the older players and some were really out of form and inexperienced. He did get the absolute best out of all of them which we must give him credit for, but I doubt that our starting 11 under him were really our best options. I remember around that time, I really liked what I saw from Gabbiadini and Giovinco as strikers and thought that they would've done much better up top rather than Eder and Pelle.
It's a great midfield and I'm not sure many countries can beat Italy for possession when those three are on the field.
that is very Conte like though. he is a win now manager and often does not look too far into "future growth potential". Look at Inter last year... brings in experienced players .. wins the scudetto.. and he's out the door lol