England Senior National Team General Discussion Thread

The reason why Stones is so highly valued by England managers is because he's so hard to replace. He's existential to how we've been playing since the Roy Hodgson era ended

We don't produce many CB's (if any) who have a high passing range, can be pressed without shitting a brick and can select when to carry the ball instead of 'getting rid of it'

So when Stones makes a recovery and gets match fitness upon tournaments before being selected for England. It's largely down to desperation of not having an alternative who offers what Stones can.

In fact there aren't many CB's in world football who share his profile, let alone England

 

I agree with u but we are producing alot more of those centrebacks. Ghuei and possibly konsa fit that profile. Colwill also fits that. Stones is definitely our best ball playing centreback right now but we're definitely improving in that area

 

Johnstone, Gomes and Mane started for Wolves. Armstrong was used from the bench. Bentley and Edozie were unused.
Gomez, Jones and Ngumhoa started for Liverpool. Nyoni was used from the bench.

There were 7 English starters for Mansfield. 1 was used from the bench. 1 was unused.
Salmon, Dowman and Madueke started for Arsenal. Saka, Eze and Dixon were used from the bench. Setford, Ibrahim and Harriman-Annous were unused.

There were 9 English starters for Wrexham. 4 were used from the bench. 2 were unused.
Tosin, Acheampong and Delap started for Chelsea. Derry was used from the bench. Sharman-Lowe, Chalobah and James were unused.

Ramsdale, Trippier, Hall. Willock and Barnes started for Newcastle. Gordon, Burn and Livramento were used from the bench. Pope, Murphy and Neave were unused.
Trafford, Stones and O’Reilly started for Manchester City. Foden was used from the bench. Guehi was unused.

Jones, Madueke, Eze, Smith, Doyle, Acheampong and Barnes scored.
Johnstone, Jones, Doyle and Windass got an assist.

 

Unfortunately, none of the CBs we produce combine those traits as well as Stones does.

Otherwise England managers wouldn't keep picking Stones in spite of his ongoing fitness issues

CB's like Stones are extremely rare

Edit: Guehi actually complements Stones in a partnership, rather than 'like for like' replaces him

 

We need Maya Jama to (injury) Dias so Stones and Guéhi get to play together.

 

I’ve woke up dumb this morning as I’m not quite understanding what you’re saying here

 

Manchester United have added Bournemouth’s English midfielder Marcus Tavernier, 26, to their list of targets. (Mail Plus - subscription required)

Newcastle United’s search for a new number one goalkeeper will be critical for head coach Eddie Howe as Nick Pope's form has faltered and the Magpies do not want to make Aaron Ramsdale's loan move from Southampton permanent. (The Athletic - subscription required), external

Fabian Schar and Kieran Trippier are two other Newcastle players whose futures are uncertain as the club face the prospect of missing out on European competition next season. (ChronicleLive)

Manchester City are interested in re-signing Felix Nmecha as an alternative to Elliot Anderson. The 25-year-old Germany midfielder has impressed for Borussia Dortmund this season. (Football Insider), external

Maya Jama (Model and TV Presenter) is currrntly dating Ruben Dias. They are in the tabloids a lot at the moment.

 

There was a worrying moment last night whereby Newcastle went straight through the centre that set alarm bells ringing for me.

But yes on the ball no one better especially consider that pass he played inside the fullback.

 

No one can doubt Stones is our best on the ball centre back but as a team we look a lot better when the defence can push up the pitch, basically with Guehi - Konsa as a partnership, which allows us to be a lot more proactive winning the ball back and reduces the gaps between the lines on the pitch. When we've not had that under Tuchel we've looked a hell of a lot more disjointed and passive (see basically any time Burn is on the pitch).

Of course you can still try and play like that with Stones but it creates a lot more risk than having a very mobile back 4.

 

In this modern era/potential to win window since let's say 2018 this is surely the best group of players to pick from. I think the 2018-2022 selection looks light compared to this looking back now.

 

The strengh in depth is the best I can remember. The first 11 is maybe not quite as good on paper as the so called golden generation. But have performed better when its mattered.

 

Yes I make a distinction with the modern era because you can't compare international football to 20 years ago. For various reasons in part because of the decline of La Liga Serie A the Brazilian Serie a and Argentine Super League combined with the expansion of the game globally which has seen more top players emerge from smaller nations diluting the talent pool of the traditional giants and destroying national team blocks at clubs creating a generation of mercenaries.

The defence alone of the England National team from 98-2006 would be able to win a tournament in this era but when you look at France Brasil Italy Netherlands Argentina Portugal from 1996-2006 it is clear that all of these nations were at a whole other level then compared to now. Spain from 2006-2012 was remarkable but in some ways are a tad overrated because their golden generation simply peaked one cycle later while everyone else collapsed into what the modern era has become already.

You don't need a perfect squad now you just need players to buy into a system and have key players perform at a high level. You can hide some lesser players in an eleven. That 2022 Argentina squad would not have won the world up 98-2006.

Spain still has an unique advantage because they grow up playing like a club game in the under 21s so even when they send out the C team its mostly functions at a similar level even though on paper it is not impressive. While France produces players in abundance in so many positions even though for certain positions/profiles they can't rub two together.

 

Curveball for the WC?

https://www.whoscored.com/players/303107/show/keinan-davis

 

I think this is a bit rose tinted glasses of the past also, you certainly didn't need perfect squads or 11's to win tournaments in the era you were talking about either. I mean Greece won Euro 2004.

Then the other teams who won in that era, the Brazil 2002 side had an excellent front 3 but some otherwise unremarkable players like Kleberson, Roque Jnr, and Edmilson. I think you could do pretty much the same for any tournament winning team in that era, and indeed in basically every era. The art of international football has almost always been managing to get the best out of a few world class players and having a well functioning set up around them to do that.

 

Argentina in 86 were unremarkable but had an extra special player in Maradona. He single handedly won them the world cup yet they had a far better side in 94 and didn't do too well. If you have a generational player then you don't need alot of quality. This England team has a couple of generational talents in kane and Bellingham

 

Always remember Kleberson at United, just a total nothing player. The only time he made the headlines was when he married a 15 year old.

 

Very interesting comments

Football has absolutely changed somewhat and its popularity has exploded globally. But its still highly unlikely we will see a new (1st time) World Cup winner in our lifetimes - unless its Croatia Portugal or Holland (who I consider as football 1st nations anyway). They're basically all UEFA nations

For better or worse, Europe will still dominate the global game. And what many people fail to grasp, is that Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay are the exception, not the rule.

Those three countries are the only non-European countries to win it and its no co-incidence they're clustered as neighbours at the Southern cone of the continent. Southern Brazil, Southern Argentina and Uruguay are (collectively) culturally almost like a mini-Europe. Which has allowed them to (somewhat) replicate what UEFA have inherited.

Whenever I've discussed this with football fans who're not from the above countries, they often get angry at me for saying it and accuse me of euro snobbery, but I've yet to meet anyone who can convince me otherwise.

 

I understand your concerns, I watched that game and Stones looked like a player who's been off injured for months and recently come back

But remember, defenders coming back from a long layoff do often look half a step slower or look hesitant when stepping forward.

That doesn’t necessarily mean their actual pace has declined. Stones game was never based on speed. Even during his peak under Pep (and Southgate), his strengths were:
positional intelligence
composure on the ball
decision making.

He was never a defender who had that blistering recovery pace like Kyle Walker or Rudiger etc And he's 31 (I think) not 35, so unless his legs are gone, Im not convinced yet he's completely finished

 

I'm not worried about taking stones to the world cup. He's a good backup defender. Guehi and konsa for me are the first choice defenders

 

Greece was an outlier and there is a difference between the Euros and the World Cup. Everything you said is correct though of course that is the art of international football. The best on paper team does not always win nor does it matter if your best players from 30-100 are better than another nations because you are not bringing them.

And still there is no comparison to Brasil from 96-2006 on paper to Brasil in this era or any team for that matter when it comes to star quality. Aside from Harry Kane and for a time Benzema the traditional giants have not had a two top class CFs to rub together for decade. There are only so many spots available and scouting is going to find players all over the world now. So whether the players were literally better then is another topic but the relative depth was greater for sure.

Argentina used Otamedni Tagliafico and Molina in their defence in 2022 4 years later and they are still using these players. That is far cry from Ayala Samuel Zanetti Sorin etc but they have no choice a 37 year old Otamendi is needed in 2026.

But yes there is a huge exaggeration that goes on when people look back and rate teams from the past the difference is not night and day but the idea of having Sol Campbell Rio John Terry Ashley Cole at once is just not going to happen. Part of this is because there are so many players from around the world competing for spots and part of this is because the modern rule changes has made it so defenders don't appear to be as dominant as they once were. A lot of legends would get instant red cards by today's rules and perhaps would not have been fast enough to cope with playing as clean as you have to play now.

 

100% agree not anytime soon anyway. On paper a team like Senegal could shock but the top european teams along with Argentina and Brasil will still win out. It's only relevant because we look back and say wow those teams were stacked but it bottlenecked.

Even Portugal winning would be a surprise. They have top end talent but they don't have a second CB they don't have a CF outside a 41 year old Ronaldo who has never been a true CF and their keeper is just ok. Their midfield at the moment is superb but they are one injury away from being ordinary. It is very tough as a nation with a small population to compete with the depth of the nations that have won a world cup. When France and then Spain finally won the circle was complete. If anyone else can break through I would still be surprised.

 

I ultimately don't know what level Stones is at because he just hasn't played enough. However I'd expect a 31-year-old with the number of injuries he's had to have experienced a good amount of physical decline. A player's age doesn't offer much protection against athletic decline if they keep suffering repeated muscle injuries over a number of years.

Tbf even players without injuries, players can easily fall of physically by 31. Ollie Watkins is 30 and has declined quite significantly from an athletic perspective. Sterling started declining in his late 20s too.

The worry for me with Stones isn't just physical decline but also a lack of sharpness. I haven't checked the stats but this has to be his most inactive season in memory. I think it's quite likely he's experiencing physical decline but it's the combination of that + so few minutes that worries me.

 

This is a really interesting observation. Many football fans (myself included)
feel like alot of the national teams have shallower player depth than the 2000's. But there has definitely been structural changes that have created this feeling.

The traditional no9 and classic no10 position has severely declined. So there's fewer Star players across the big european leagues (there used to be dozens in each league). Now we're almost restricted to a few wide Fwd's playing in each country.

Plus I think the 2000's was the peak in world football in terms of the amount of star players we had, competing across Europe. Even the 80's didn't have as many big names of the 2000's. There was a crossover period of stars who emerged in the 90's, still competing alongside the new generation of talent who emerged in the 2000's., and 2004-2006 was where it peaked.

But lets be honest, we're NEVER gonna see a repeat of the football landscape we had in the 2000's. It was a once in a lifetime eclipse of star player output from two golden era's. All before tactical rigidness, the internet and the death of kids playing on the street ended it (forever).

Also Italian and Dutch football doesn't currently have the same amount of player depth it had then. But that is just all part of the european football cycle and it wont last forever. Both countries will have a resurgence again (at some point).

In spite of everything we've been discussing, not as much has 'structurally' changed in world football as we like to believe. Just look at the past two UEFA Teams of the year;

2025:


2024:



Then look at the two seasons from 20yrs earlier;





Again, the most obvious change is how the traditional no9 and classic no10 position has severely declined. But notice how Europe and the southern cone of S.America produce all the best players. Nothing has changed in this regard and I don't think it will.

 

I agree we dont know the extent to how much his injuries have taken its toll on him (only he will).
But I like to think hes the kind of player who can manage himself physically through these periods.

There are some players (notably CB's) who can get away with not being as physically robust as they were in there mid-20s. Ferdinand, Nesta and Ledley King prolonged themselves after 30, by not training intensely (every day) and had to carefully manage their comebacks, due to prolonged injuries.

Stones seems to be one of these players and I'm predicting this will be his last tournament. But if this World Cup is a bridge too far, I'd like to think he would at least be honest with Tuchel and not be automatic 1st choice alongside Guehi.

Lets just hope for Englands sake he slowly gets match fit between now and the WC without another muscle injury

 

Sessegnon, Reed and Smith Rowe started for Fulham. King was used from the bench.
Bree, Harwood-Bellis, Wood, Downes and Fellows started for Southampton. Edozie was used from the bench. Long and Archer were unused.

Lawrence-Gabriel, John, Humphreys, Hall, Walters and Archer started for Port Vale. Hall, Ward, Magloire and Campbell were unused. Amos and Headley were unused.
O’Nien and Rigg started for Sunderland. Moore, J Jones, H Jones and Whittaker were unused.

Longstaff started for Leeds. Byram, Justin and Bogle were used from the bench.
Grimshaw, Fisher, Chrisene, Field, Gibbs and Maghoma started for Norwich. Mundle-Smith and Stacey were used from the bench. Darling and Wright were unused.

Longstaff scored.