England Senior National Team General Discussion Thread

That's a ********ing awful team

 

Sure!

 

I know, we're all doomed, England are falling apart and we might as well wave goodbye to any thoughts of qualifying for the next World Cup. But putting aside your penchant for fatalism, what are you seeing in this Ireland team that makes you keep insisting they're going to do us over at Wembley?

 

Apparently Curtis Jones is starting tonight according to TalkSport and Ben White apparently going to make himself available once again under Tuchel.

 

The occurrence of a Fireburn doom spiral is a decent enough indicator that we'll get a result tonight.

 

‘Lee Carsley considering starting tonight’s NL game v Greece with Captain Harry Kane on the bench for #england. May be a late decision, and not clear if Kane has a knock. But both he and #avfc Ollie Watkins have been used as no9 in training. Watkins to start if Kane doesn’t.’

Sky Sports News reporter Rob Dorsett.

 

I don't mind a Gallagher/Jones/Bellingham midfield. I would've preferred a Gallagher/Gomes/Bellingham trio as I think we really need a true first phase specialist and a progressive passer in there with Gallagher in. I think with Gallagher and Bellingham there's enough there to still stifle transitions, despite Gomes' vulnerability.

Jones is still a nice inclusion, though, and it makes it an extremely mobile and athletic midfield.

 

Newcastle look set to bring in 22-year-old James Trafford from Burnley next summer. (The I - subscription required)

Arsenal have suffered another major injury blow after Ben White underwent knee surgery. (The Sun)

Cole Palmer admits he was 'frustrated' with former England manager Gareth Southgate over his lack of involvement at Euro 2024. (Daily Mirror)

Cole Palmer says he needed persuading to join Chelsea from Manchester City last summer. (The Athletic)

Anthony Gordon has revealed how incoming England manager Thomas Tuchel tried to persuade him to sign for Chelsea and "made me really want to play for him" during a post-game chat while he was still an Everton player (Daily Telegraph)

Harry Kane is set to be a shock omission from Lee Carsley's England team for Thursday's must-win Nations League match against Greece in Athens. (The Guardian)

 

Come on Fireburn Ireland are a poor team at the moment and if we can't beat them at home even with a 2nd team then the players playing need to have a long hard look at themselves.

Tonight will be tougher but Greece couldn't even qualify for the Euros so it wouldn't surprise me if we got a result.

Obviously missing a lot of players tonight but even an England 2nd team is relatively strong on paper.

 

If Kane is being dropped then Solanke is in better form than Watkins at the moment so I'd probably play him. An in form Watkins is better but he has been dreadful in front of goal recently. Clearly Solanke not trusted enough yet in the England setup.

If we play on the counter with that team and don't care much about possession we might have some joy and with Greece being at home you'd expect them to be more attacking than in the reverse game at Wembley.

 

------------Pope-----------
-KWP--Tomori--Kilman--Kelly-
------Cook--Willock-------
Rashford--ESR--Hudson-Odoi
----------Welbeck---------

I'd expect our third/fourth team to beat Greece and Ireland. Greece especially deserve respect and football doesn't work that way; you're always going to lose games you should win. Regardless, the expectation should be that we beat Greece and Ireland, whoever we have playing.

 

Greece's results this year have been good and they drew with France about a year ago but I look at their team and think they are much more about spirit than quality.

Newcastle's 2nd choice goalkeeper starts for them (Newcastle's first choice goalkeeper can't even get in England's squad), Liverpool's 2nd choice left back (who is decent to be fair), a West Ham CB who most their fans don't rate, their midfield is workmanlike and mostly consists of players from the Greek league (they even have a Cardiff player in there). Up front I do think Pavlidis is a handful but even he only has 8 goals in 42 games for them despite starting a lot of games for them.

It's more experienced on the international stage than the team we'll put out tonight but quality wise I'd put the England side that starts tonight far ahead of them.

 

This must be the youngest set of defenders we've ever had. Aside from walker. Only konsa is above 24

 

If our wingers are going to be Gordon and Madueke/Bowen then Solanke is also a much better fit stylistically, Watkins struggles to bring those around him into the game. Watkins can still be very effective but we need Saka and/or Palmer to get the most out of him imo. We really missed a trick not giving Hudson-Odoi a go here.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...r-emerges-Mohamed-Kudus-Champions-League.html

Some interesting stuff in this about this week.

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

There’s an exception to every rule, and today Declan Rice is the exception.

Harry Kane’s pointed remarks towards England’s drop-outs here in Athens hit the mark. The captain made a compelling argument, though there was a significant degree of annoyance from representatives of England players (not Rice, it must be said), who have been in touch with Mail Sport, at suggestions this week that their clients have cried off, insisting withdrawals are for genuine reasons.

Nevertheless, Kane makes a valid point, though assertions that international football should always come before club commitments, while being a wholesome sentiment, is a ideology far removed from the actual truth for modern day players, who are paid millions by their employers.

There is no right or wrong answer.

With all that said, such accusations should not be applied to Rice. Kane would likely be the first to admit that.

First and foremost Rice withdrew from the England squad with a genuine injury - a broken foot.

He required painkillers to play against Chelsea on Sunday. If it wasn’t Chelsea away, he may not have even played at all.

England medics knew all of this, and told Rice not to bother reporting to St George’s Park on Monday so they could check him out themselves.

But even if he wasn’t injured, Rice could do with a rest. No, scratch that: he needs a rest.

The statistics are startling: since the start of the 2022-23 season Rice has played 115 matches for Arsenal and West Ham - only Bruno Fernandes, Bernardo Silva and Marcus Rashford have played more among Premier League players.

From the same point: only Fernandes and Arsenal team-mate Gabriel Magalhaes have played more than Rice’s 9,589 minutes of football in that span.

There’s a similar scenario brewing with Phil Foden, who also withdrew from the squad this week.

The Manchester City forward, like Rice, has played 115 matches since the start of the 2022-23 campaign.

But even if Rice, and to a degree Foden, aren't injured you can build a strong case to suggest they should have given these games a miss anyway.

Because imagine if what happened to Rodri happens to Rice. Catastrophe.

This isn’t to suggest Rice, or any other player for that matter, should be granted special treatment.

If Rice hadn’t suffered a broken toe then he’d have reported for duty like everyone else.

Speak to those close to Rice and they’ll paint a picture of a player who prides himself on turning out for his country, with his 62 caps already more than the likes of Jimmy Greaves, Paul Gascoigne and Stanley Matthews even at a relatively young age.

Indeed, the 25-year-old’s dedication to recovery between matches, according to the numbers, makes him one of the most durable footballers in England.

But there is also a degree of luck that comes with avoiding injuries. If something doesn’t change, how long before that luck runs out?

That responsibility largely lies with club managers, in this case Mikel Arteta.

As important Rice is to his team, Arteta will realise his midfielder’s huge workload. Pulling him out of the starting XI is easier said than done, more so now as Arsenal try to close a nine-point gap to Liverpool at the top of the Premier League.

But something has to give to prolong Rice’s top level career. England need to mindful of that scenario, too.

Since making his West Ham debut in 2017, Rice has played on average close to 47 matches a season.

Last season he played 66 times in all competitions for club and country. The season before that, 64. The season before that the number was 55. That is unsustainable - even for a player as dedicated to recovery as Rice.

Similarly, Rice’s running stats consistently defy logic, particularly for a player who starts and completes most games.

While he will never admit it publicly, Rice - as willing as he maybe to put his body on the line - realises the dangers of his tiresome workload.

And while he lives life the right way - he is only human.


Saka allowed to stay in London
Arsenal forward Bukayo Saka had the FA’s permission not to report to St George’s Park on Monday.

While Chelsea duo Levi Colwill and Cole Palmer both made the trip to the national football centre from London before being released to return to their club, Saka remained in the capital after England and Arsenal medical staff collaborated to coordinate a scan for the attacker.

Saka suffered a thigh issue against Chelsea on Sunday, the results of which meant all parties agreed it wouldn’t be worthwhile the Gunners star travelling up to England’s HQ.

The issue is not said to be serious, but was bad enough for England doctors to accept he didn’t need to report. Saka’s club team-mate Declan Rice also didn’t report following earlier dialogue between Arsenal and England over his broken toe.

Colwill, Palmer and Jack Grealish were among the players who did arrive at England’s base in Burton on Monday afternoon only to be told they could go back to their clubs.

Eze could give Palace major boost
Crystal Palace are not completely ruling out Eberechi Eze from facing Aston Villa immediately after the international break despite his hamstring strain.

The England international suffered the injury in the Carabao Cup win over Villa on October 30 and Oliver Glasner is yet to indicate when Eze may be fit to return.

Mail Sport understands the prognosis at the time of the injury was the forward missing between three and four weeks.

With that in mind, Eze’s chances of making the game against Unai Emery’s side are rated as 50-50. Failing that there will be greater hope the attacker will be available to face Newcastle on November 30.


Branthwaite's issue revealed
Everton defender Jarrad Branthwaite was released from England duty due to a pelvic issue.

Originally called up into the England Under 21 squad, Branthwaite was promoted into to the senior setup after eight players withdrew from Lee Carsley’s squad.

But having missed training on Wednesday and Thursday, the central defender has not travelled to Athens for tonight’s clash versus Greece.

And it is understood Branthwaite is suffering from a pelvic bone complaint following last weekend’s draw versus West Ham.

Everton are hopeful, however, that the 22-year-old will be available for their game versus Brentford after the international break.

 

The mirror say it will be a 4-5-1 of Pickford, Walker, Konsa, Guehi, Lewis, Gallagher, Jones, Madueke, Bellingham, Gordon, Watkins.

 

Lewis at left back doesn’t fill me with joy. Right back or midfield I would prefer for him although I think midfield is his position going forward.

 

Harry Kane’s criticism of England pullouts does not take into account player workloads or priorities
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5921956/2024/11/14/kane-england-squad-pullouts/

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

Harry Kane has been, from the earliest days of his top-level career, pretty skilled at talking a lot without really saying anything.

He will typically offer up party-line platitudes, bland positivities and vanilla soundbites. So when he says something that diverts from that, even slightly, you sit up a bit straighter.

Talking about the nine England players — Trent Alexander-Arnold, Levi Colwill, Phil Foden, Jack Grealish, Cole Palmer, Aaron Ramsdale, Declan Rice, Bukayo Saka and Jarrad Branthwaite — who have withdrawn from the squad to play Nations League matches tonight away to Greece and on Sunday against the Republic of Ireland at Wembley, Kane told ITV Sport on Wednesday: “It’s a shame this week. It’s a tough period of the season and maybe that’s been taken advantage of a little bit.

“I think England comes before anything. England comes before club. England is the most important thing you play as a professional footballer and Gareth (Southgate, the team’s previous manager who stood down in the summer) was hot on that and he wasn’t afraid to make decisions if, you know, that started to drift from certain players.

“I don’t really like it, if I’m totally honest. England comes before any club situation.”

Certainly from an England perspective, it’s not ideal. Seven of those nine players will have either started or been first call off the bench for interim manager Lee Carsley. But in a wider context, Kane’s comments feel unhelpful to his international colleagues.

Those at the top of the game have so much football on their schedules that players are talking about going on strike to protest against it.

Saka has already played 47 official games in 2024. Rice four more than that. Foden, Grealish and Palmer, because of their involvement in the new-look Club World Cup next June and July and assuming England qualify for the World Cup 12 months later, may not get a proper summer off until 2027. With Liverpool still in all four competitions at home and in Europe and an extra couple of Champions League first-phase games to take into consideration in that competition’s new format, Alexander-Arnold is looking down the barrel of a 60-plus-game season.

Even if you felt that the nine could have played in these two matches if they really wanted to (and given Ramsdale has a broken finger, we can exclude him from that for starters), it is just sensible for them to look at the calendar, see what games are to come and prioritise the most important ones.

With that in mind, the last thing they need is their England captain lecturing them about duty to the national team.

Kane’s position seems to be based on the flawed premise that England is the most important thing to everyone, when we know it isn’t.

Alexander-Arnold caused much consternation when he told Sky Sports recently that he would rather win the Ballon d’Or, an individual award, than the World Cup: that wasn’t necessarily an outright snub to England, but it did show that priorities have shifted.

Why should the England team come before any club situation? Someone like Alexander-Arnold is almost universally adored as a Liverpool player, but for the national team he has been criticised for poor form, picked inconsistently in his usual position and hung out to dry by being used out of position at a major tournament. Maybe he does feel patriotism or allegiance to his national-team colleagues, but that’s his call, you wouldn’t blame him if he didn’t and he shouldn’t be guilt-tripped into thinking otherwise.

It feels like we should have moved on from the idea that playing for your national team is an inherent duty and that those who aren’t especially enthusiastic about it are judged over it. It’s football, not military service.

There are caveats.

Firstly, without wishing to join the growing voices blaming Thomas Tuchel for the ills of the England team before he’s even started the job, the chances are that there would not have been nine pullouts had he been in charge now, rather than waiting for January to begin and leaving Carsley as a lame-duck manager for these November games.

Also, Kane wasn’t just talking about the national team being a priority in a nationalistic, IN-GUR-LUND, shove-it-up-Johnny-Foreigner way. He is aware that one of the key strengths of the Southgate era was the club-like atmosphere that was created, the power of the collective and, for want of a better word, the culture that was engendered. The more the players are together, the greater their bond, then — in theory — the better their chances of being a coherent unit on the pitch when it matters.

With Southgate now gone, Kane will see one of his responsibilities as captain to be continuing that, especially in this weird interim period before another permanent manager is in place. Given that he is physically further away from his England colleagues these days following last year’s transfer to Bayern Munich, Kane might feel the need to be together more acutely than most.

From that perspective, it would also be interesting to see a Venn diagram of those who were most strident in demanding Southgate should go back in the summer, and those now criticising the nine pullouts for shirking their national responsibility. Maybe Southgate was a bit cautious and slow to make substitutions, but one thing he was undeniably brilliant at was making people care about playing for England.

But even then, it would be easy to create the impression that nobody ever dropped out of Southgate’s squads with minor injuries. Seven withdrew from the squad for games against Albania and San Marino in November 2021. Six excused themselves the following March, before friendlies against Switzerland and Ivory Coast.

Kane is presumably doing what he thinks is his duty as England captain.

If his main priority is England, then that’s great — and perfectly understandable, given his status. But it feels extremely unhelpful for him to treat his preferences as the standard, and to imply that anyone who doesn’t feel the same is wrong.

 

Arsenal reporter Con Harrison has posted the following.

‘Reports regarding Ben white being open to return to the England fold are true. However he has been open to a return since Lee Carsley took over. Lee carsley has been told to keep it safe with he’s selections and the fa wanted to use his tenure as a time to introduce young players who have played through the younger age groups.
Thomas Tuchel has spoken to Ben white to clear up his situation and was informed he was always available.’

 

He can jog on

 

If carsley isn't taking these games seriously he might as well start Lewis hall at left back

 

Line up confirmed. England XI: Pickford, Walker, Konsa, Guehi, Lewis, Jones, Gallagher, Bellingham, Madueke, Gordon, Watkins

Tonight's #ThreeLions 👊 pic.twitter.com/SvMLeo4I57

— England (@England) November 14, 2024

The numbers are interesting.

 

Depressing line up

 

Unless kane is carrying an injury does the bald headed prick not realise we have to win this game?

 

If you think a bunch of suits with no managerial experience are telling the England coach who he should pick then you'll believe anything.