England Senior National Team General Discussion Thread

I doubt it. Bellingham and Palmer will both likely start

 

Southgate In.

 

the irony is all of Englands "best players" outside of Palmer who is truly a fantasy player are stars because of the systems and managers that they play under. Saka has fantastic numbers that suggest he is a world class RW (meaning top 2) (and hey for club he is by the numbers) but really on a technical level he is more likely a top 10 RW closer to 10 than to 1. Foden as well under Pep in that system he was a EPL player of the season but just throw him on a Fulham and he's not putting up those numbers through pure ability alone.

all this to say its a double double whammy not only is forcing a bunch of all stars into an 11
a bad idea forcing a bunch of system players who believe they are world beaters into a fantasy 11 is an even worse idea. this is where the disconnect comes from when people ask these are among if not the best players in the worlds best league and then they look average to bad for england how is this possible?

and also don't get me wrong this is a very talented generation but this is not a 4222 like peak Brazil 97-2002 crop of talent and yet it is being sent out there as if it is. do the players believe their own hype?

 

I don't know how you can argue Saka is a benefactor of the system he's in. What exactly about Arsenal's system works to maximise him, as opposed to him sacrificing parts of his game for the greater good of the team (while still being one of the team's most consistent performers)?

That suggestion also ignores the fact he's routinely one of England's best players and consistently puts up big performances in big tournament games for England.

It's also nonsense to suggest that players like Bellingham and Trent stand out because of "systems". Players who play with their style and come up with the kinds of moments they do are quite literally, by definition, anti-system. They're two of the most off-the-cuff players on the planet. Real Madrid's entire tactical setup is centred around giving players the freedom to come up with their own moments. The only "star" who fits the description you're talking about is Foden.

 

he's a great player but he's a bit of a robocop Arsenal score a lot of goals and the team scores goals by committee meaning his crosses have plenty of options. when you have 4 5 players in the oppositions box and you are a talent as he is you are going to pick up assists but this does not take away his ability.

Yes he has been one of the better performers for England in the last 6 years or so but often this is not a high bar to achieve. He certainly deserves cudo's over many others for coming through with consistency but if you think of the best wingers of the last 15 years being Messi Ronaldo Neymar Mbbape Ribery Bale Robben Salah Mane Di Maria Hazard Sanchez Pedro Son David Villa he would be closer to the bottom of this list than to the top as thus far.

But don't get me wrong I think he is currently a world class RW (meaning top 2) and this can not be denied based on his stats I still have Salah ahead of him but he is my RW alternate its just I would a few RW's ahead of him on pure ability and a ton of LWs. I think you could plug a Rodrygo onto Arsenal and he would put up similar stats because of Artetas set up. Certainly Palmer Yamal are more gifted than he is at RW and Olise Pulisic Sancho Chiesa are as talented as he is from a technical stand point. The point being that Saka on England isn't the advantage a prime Ronaldinho Salah Hazard Ribery Bale was as a pure individual.

In the Euros he has 1 goal and 0 assists in 7 games. In the first 7 games for Arsenal this season he has 2 goals and 7 assists. he has a good return for England but majority of his stats come from qualifiers against minnows where England was routinely winning by 3 or 4 goals under Southgate in the last 6 years or so. But again I consider him the second best RW in then world I am only elaborating because you asked the question. He is certainly not the player whose club form shows up the least for England so he is not one to pick on. That would be more the likes of Walker Trent Rice Stones Foden Bellingham Lewis and somewhat Kane but also not the best example.

 

I've described Saka as a player that has mastered the basics. He doesn't really get you off your seat but he's ruthlessly efficient. I really don't see him as a system player at all.

I really don't think that you can read anything into last nights game regarding the players. Fielding a team where half your outfield players are attacking midfielders is one of the worst ideas I've seen. Maybe against San Marino..............

 

What exactly about Arteta's system do you think is so conducive to high attacking output? Because in my eyes it's the complete opposite. Saka routinely bails Arsenal out with pieces of exceptional creativity in games where the team were struggling to break the opposition down. Let me tell you, if Rodrygo played for Arsenal in Saka's role he's going to be doing more defensive work than he's ever done in his life.

And I don't really know how you've managed to lump Bellingham and Stones into that conversation. Bellingham is consistently excellent for England and Stones probably has the greatest England career of any defender in my lifetime. He's been one of the team's outstanding players in four successive tournaments that yielded two finals, a semi-final and a quarter-final.

 

Saka still has time to return to the left side where we need him - then we’ll see the best of him.

 

I don't blame the players I am only highlighting how while yes shoe horning a bunch of all stars out of position is often if not always a bad idea likewise fielding a bunch of names that are more stars because of how they work under their club manager is even worse because they don't really have the individual quality to just play fantasy ball like a 422 Brazil in 82 or 98 - 2002 would very few nations have ever had this. its not meant as a slight it's just a fact that Arsenal and Real Madrid are not dominating England Europe because Jude and Rice are pulling the strings other non English players create that environment for them and the same can be said for Foden with City who wins and produces with or without him.

Gareth had a solid system that maybe half the best players back but he also recognized their limitations. Balance is the key here and surely there is a happy medium.


--------------------------------------Watkins
-----------------Gordon-----------------------------------Palmer
------------------------Jude---------Rice-------Gallagher
------------Lewis-----------Colwill------Stones--------Walker

I would field something like this and then bring Saka on for Palmer and Foden on for Gordon.
otherwise you can change the shape maybe a 4141 with Saka Palmer Jude Gordon behind Watkins tho Rice would struggle as a sole pivot. Could maybe do a 343 diamond or a City like 3241 with Lewis and Rice as a double Pivot.

 

I don't understand how you can pretend Bellingham is some sort of bit-part system player at Real Madrid. You don't play that many minutes for that club with such a prominent role if you don't have the ability to consistently come up with moments of individual quality that most other players can't come up with.

 

Again I am rating these players highly as a baseline. Against top teams Jude has not been as good for England as he has been for Real Madrid or Dortmund. No one would confuse his Eurod form for his La Liga form in 2024. Stones has been good for England but on City he has often looked brilliant because of the time on the ball he has. Pep using him in the build up play has often made him look extraordinary where for England he has mostly out in good shifts but against top teams like the rest of the squad has struggled to build from the back this is why I say he benefits from City's system and advantage. There are things he simply can't do for England which again is why on paper the team is slightly different than the reality. Hence the constant disconnect. This isn't me saying this is the english press constantly asking why can't they perform the way they do for their clubs. I am trying to answer the question. The answer would be to create a club like system for England. Gareth did that to an extent but he was half in half out on the defensive system as he still wanted to shoe horn names into and 11 for moral and press or whatever now simply letting the ponies run as if they are these geniuses that were held back also is not the answer. An attacking system that is balanced and maybe leaves big names on the bench is the way to go. Will it hurt morale? I don't know but if you have an abundance in certain positions and a lack quality in others pretending the problem goes away by stacking even more brand names on sheet will only make things worse.

 

He's a better player than sanchez chiesa olise in fact better than most of them. This view is total nonsense

 

I am saying the opposite he is a player that has the freedom to come up with brilliant moments because he is playing with others that make the team tick before it was Kroos Modric now it is Valverde notice how Ancelotti still relies on a old man Modric to get the team to tick. This si why I said he is not pulling the strings. He is playing in a system at Madrid where he can contribute with his incredible but specific qualities. So the question is who is the Valverde Kroos Modric on England to relieve Jude of this duty. The reality is Foden Jude Palmer and when healthy Kane all want to sit in the same open space in that 10 spot. Now Palmer can play RW so that solves that and Jude can pay in a midfield 3 but certainly not a double pivot as he can't perform that role as of yet so you need to drop some names to the bench and field a team that can bring out the qualities of these players the way their club teams do because the idea that they are on big teams so they simply have the ability to play any role and fantasy football is an illusion and maybe one that they themselves buy into. They are good, very good but not THAT good few are.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...d-formation-finland-greece-kane-b1187239.html
‘Lee Carsley to abandon England experiment against Finland after Greece disaster.’

 

The Mirror (In an article mainly about Carsley’s future) say Kane, Walker, Guehi and Gallagher are in the frame to start on Sunday.

 

I said I rank him as the second best RW in the world this should be taken as praise but his ability/technique is not or far above the mentioned players. He is a great player yes but not so great that it is absurd to mention the players that have a similar ability to him. It's not like he is scoring 30/40 goals a year like prime Neymar Mbbappe Suarez etc his best return ins 20 in 47 a lot of layers have put up these numbers before and a lot will put up these numbers again.

Olise has similar or better numbers for Bayern than Saka has for Arsenal thus far this season depending on how much more you rate goals than assists. Again shows what playing for a team that puts up numbers will do for your numbers. Put Saka on Palace and his numbers are likely similar to what Olise's were.

Olise 6 goals 3 assist in 9 games
Saka 3 goals 7 assist in 9 games.

 

it was beyond an overcorrection on Southgate ball but that's why the nations league exists in part to have a place to make these errors. it seems like boosting morale and making the talent feel like they are ballers was the priority. no big deal it does not take long to re-establish a proper culture and team spirit but you don't want to let that mentality fester especially with young players. they should be scratching and clawing to get into the team against their positional counterparts not being coddled by a formation that let's everyone play as if it's a charity game.

 

Just keep it simple. We looked much better with Gomes in the team and our priority should be fixing the midfield. I have long been a Foden fan but right now he deserves to be benched, he just hasn't had a great game for a while for us and his numbers have been poor. He'd do well to have a bit of time on the sidelines though I don't think it has helped him being out of position at times at the Euros and in a team where multiple 10s have been picked taking up each other's space. Still no excuses.

Pickford was also poor, might be time to find a keeper soon who is more comfortable on the ball and doesn't boot the ball aimlessly.

‐-----------Pickford
Trent---Stones---Guehi--Colwill
--------Rice--Gomes--Bellingham
------Saka------Kane----Palmer

Is probably the best lineup right now.

A lot of people in the media using this as a way to praise Southgate and how his conservative style worked. I disagree with that, he was overly cautious in big games with poor midfield selections.

 

The biggest issue is all the PL English goalkeepers are not much better on the ball.

 

Many of the young players are current U21 European Champions, Kane is breaking all sorts of goal scoring records in Germany and the 'players of the year' in the Premier League and La Liga are in the England team, talent is not the problem, the manager whether Soughgate or this fella are the problem. The issue is that the team is EXTREMELY stacked in some areas and less so in others, pushing Colwill on to the left is NOT going to get the best out of Colwill (and this is just one example), simply play the best player the country has in every position and they will win most games and if Palmer, has to miss out because of Foden or if Foden has to miss out because of Palmer then so be it foregoing a striker just so you can play Saka, Bellingham, Palmer and Foden in the same team is NOT the answer. You don't have to be a particularly competent manager to get good results from this team however if you put a competent manager in charge then they have a chance against any team on this planet.

 

That's a good thing surely? Getting involved in handbags isn't going to do the team any favours.

 

I think you may be trolling? Bellingham is the La Liga player of the season, calling him 'bit part' is just somebody looking for a 'rise'.

 

I never used that term. I said he's not the one pulling the strings and that he is in a system where he is set up for success where he can use his incredible qualities and then a fellow poster here used the term bit part because that's how they took my point. If someone said that then surely it would be a troll but no one did.