England Senior National Team General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'England' started by BarryfromEastenders, Dec 12, 2022.

  1. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    The specific incident doesn't really matter when there's objective proof of their compromised commitment to making the right decision.
     
  2. Regis Prograis

    Regis Prograis Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Feb 8, 2020
    Fair enough, I think the bloke in the VAR room probably drew the lines as accurately as he probably could and this is the outcome, I would have liked Coventry to have won also.
     
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  3. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    Sorry, it's probably annoyed me more than it should've. I've always hated VAR and this is probably one of the worst moments it's produced for me.
     
  4. Iansutton270390

    Iansutton270390 Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur
    England
    Jan 12, 2019
    Same. It wasn’t clear and obvious and should have stood as a goal. But like always, the smaller teams get shafted by officials for the big teams. This is why the FA cup has lost its magic for me. There’s no shocks anymore.
     
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  5. JAMC_

    JAMC_ Member

    England
    Jul 4, 2022
    1782152227827994943 is not a valid tweet id
     
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  6. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    Clear and obvious doesn’t apply to Offsides. Offside’s are strict yes or no.
     
  7. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    Offside is factual. Like it or not, the correct decision was made.
    Now for me, there's an argument to be made as to whether it should be applied to such a minute degree as it's not what VAR was sold as. It was to stop the howlers like the Maradona/Henry hand ball goals, to make sure serious foul play wasn't missed, and that off the ball incidents were covered. Pre-VAR, this goal would have stood and nobody would have batted an eyelid. The game is poorer for these type of decisions in my book.
     
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  8. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
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  9. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    They would have to rewrite the Offside law to change it. To something like a so many cm’s or meters ahead.
     
  10. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    Not to any great degree. Would just be a case of inserting "in the opinion of" into the Laws.
    Then you just have any decision that goes to VAR given 30 seconds and no lines. If it's not obvious to the naked eye then the onfield decision stands.
     
  11. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    That will just lead to more arguements. Even subjective decisions are technically not meant to be subjective according to the laws.

    The semi automated offsides means no one draws the lines.
     
  12. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    There's no perfect solution, but we're essentially looking to fix a problem nobody had before VAR came along.
     
  13. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    The easiest solution would be to rewrite the offside law. Adding subjectivity would make it worse in my view.
     
  14. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    An offside is a factual call but extremely tight offisdes like that can almost never be called definitively. It's virtually impossible for VAR, even the semi-automated offsides, to definitively call extremely tight decisions and the Premier League have admitted that. There was a very contentious Sterling offside call a few years back and the frames showed how considering the speed that Sterling was running at, if the frame was frozen 0.02 seconds earlier it would have resulted in him going from just about offside (arguably) to being 13 centimetres onside. It's so difficult, even for a computer, to pinpoint the exact moment the passer's foot makes contact with the ball and 0.02 seconds either way contributes barely anything to that.

    Even on top of that there are serious question marks over whether the frame rates and camera quality are good enough to capture these things. I think realistically you'll have a situation whereby you could pick a number of frames from Sunday's call against Cov where you could convincingly argue that's the moment the player's foot touches the ball, and some of those would have seen Wright in an onside position - if he wasn't already.

    I think this is partly why they're looking to change the offside law entirely. They've basically opened Pandora's box now with VAR and so we'll probably see a number of rule changes to accommodate its continued existence.
     
  15. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    Jordan Henderson was doing one to one training back in Liverpool this week. Will he play for Ajax again this season? Only two more matches left.
     
  16. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    I think they have to because it doesn’t make sense to have a rule that actually can’t be enforced. But it has to be something just as objective and doesn’t have any form of subjectivity written in.
     
  17. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    I mean personally I'd totally bin VAR altogether but that's not happening. I don't watch MLS so I can't comment but apparently they use the clear and obvious rule for offsides over there and people who watch it claim it works really well. I definitely think VAR calls like today show VAR at its absolute worst and if it's gonna stick around it's decisions like that specifically that need to be mitigated imo; i.e. cancelling dramatic, memorable goals after they've already been celebrated for extremely pedantic and highly contestable "infringements". It's anti-football and anti-emotion.
     
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  18. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    I don't know why for offsides they don't just introduce a threshold of uncertainty for the offsides for the VAR rather than the current system. No one can seriously argue that someone being offside by a few centimeters is seriously gaining an advantage from it, it defeats the purpose of what the law is actually for so there's no reason for there not to be a threshold.

    Add a bit of tolerance to the system and you get past the issue of when exactly the ball leaves the foot, and issues like where the line is drawn on defenders arms etc none. If you're still offside with say a 30cm tolerance then fair enough.
     
  19. Inter Row Z

    Inter Row Z Member+

    Oldham Athletic
    England
    Mar 26, 2023
    I agree but l suspect you're still going to get wildly different estimations of what that 30cm tolerance actually is. We're back to individual interpretation again and 'consistency' and 'common sense' don't seem to phrases today's officials are too familiar with.

    At the end of the day, l think it will all come back to how quickly they can develop something similar to the current goal-line technology system, which will allow a definitive 'yes, he's onside/offside' decision to be delivered in an instant.
     
  20. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    7 goals and 2 assists in games against the top 5 in Spain this season. Last minute winners in both El Classico games.
     
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  21. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021

     
  22. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    Wolves are considering Arsenal's 25-year-old England goalkeeper Aaron Ramsdale, Liverpool's 25-year-old Republic of Ireland goalkeeper Caoimhin Kelleher, and Sunderland's 23-year-old English goalkeeper Anthony Patterson as replacements if Portugal goalkeeper Jose Sa, 31, leaves the club this summer. (Sun)

    Manchester City are willing to listen to offers for 28-year-old England midfielder Jack Grealish this summer. (Football Insider)

    A familiar face was being put through his paces at Liverpool's training ground recently as former captain Jordan Henderson, now an Ajax player, was spotted at the club's base enduring an intense one-on-one fitness session. (Daily Mail)
     
  23. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    #15948 Fireburn47, Apr 22, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2024





    Left back is such an area of concern.
     
  24. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    1782370631704883576 is not a valid tweet id

    Along with Kane and Bellingham I think he's one of the three best English players.
     
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  25. Inter Row Z

    Inter Row Z Member+

    Oldham Athletic
    England
    Mar 26, 2023
    #15950 Inter Row Z, Apr 22, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2024
    Add Phil Foden to the mix and I wouldn't argue with that. I just hope Trent doesn't end up being a bag carrier again at this summer's Euros. It'll be an absolute waste of a World Class talent.
     
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