England Is Blessed With Central Defenders

rymannryan · Jun 14, 2003

Gareth Southgate - 32
Sol Campbell - 28
Rio Ferdinand - 24
Johnathan Woodgate - 23
Wes Brown - 23
John Terry - 22
Matthew Upson - 23 (?)
Michael Dawson - 19

It appears that this is certainly England's loaded position. With the U.S., its goalkeepers. As of now, Sol Campbell and Rio Ferdinand are easily first choice. But at what point do the likes of Terry and Woodgate push the envelope and have a chance to break through? It appears that Sven has more faith in Southgate than Terry and Woodgate when Rio or Sol is injured. So when will the others have their chance to break through and do any of you honestly think that they can beat Rio or Sol out for a spot?

Personally, from what I've seen, they're all excellent defenders, some stronger than others in certain areas. Sol seems the most indespinsable IMO.

So the pecking order goes something like this:
- Sol Campbell - Arsenal (28)
- Rio Ferdinand - Manchester United (24)
- Gareth Southgate - Middlesbrough (32)
- Jonothan Woodgate - Newcastle United (23)
- John Terry - Chelsea (22)
- Wes Brown - Manchester United (23)
- Michael Dawson (19)

This is just my judgement based on what I've seen, not totally sure how accurate it really is, but its still an overwhelming level of talent at a spot that only has two players on the field at the same time. This makes me think that if there was anyway to get more of these defenders into the backline on the field at the same time, then it should be done.

England tried a new diamond formation in the qualifier the other night. (which I must admit I did not see the game) And from what I read, it helped in the middle of the field, but left the outsides cruelly exposed. As wonderful as Ashley Cole and Wayne Bridge are when it comes to attacking out of the left fullback position, sometimes it appears they leave the defense exposed, particularly in the new formation. The same may go for Neville or Mills. (again, I can't base this on my observations, just from what I've read) So maybe Sven should look into placing someone like Terry in one of the fullback positions. He's capable of playing this position and has proved it with Chelsea.

If the strong pool of center backs could have more than two players on the field at the same time, maybe the English defence would be less exposed on the outsides. Thus allowing them to more effectively utilize their new diamond formation which appears to be more beneficial to their attack. Just a thought.

Cweedchop · Jun 14, 2003

I guess it all depends on what you think is quality..

Out of that bunch of players, I think only Ferdinand and Campbell are any good.. The rest are ordinary at best (international standards) with the lone exception being maybe Upson...

As far as the comparison to the US in that we have the best collection of goalkeepers, if you are suggesting that England has the same luxury at central defence, I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken..

Give me any of the Italian center halves any day of the week....

sinner78 · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by Cweedchop
I guess it all depends on what you think is quality..

Out of that bunch of players, I think only Ferdinand and Campbell are any good.. The rest are ordinary at best (international standards) with the lone exception being maybe Upson...

As far as the comparison to the US in that we have the best collection of goalkeepers, if you are suggesting that England has the same luxury at central defence, I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken..

Give me any of the Italian center halves any day of the week....
Click to expand...

Even on a thread about English central defenders the yanks cant resist bigging up their goalkeepers.
Does anyone get bored of reading about their grossly over-rated goalkeepers??
Cuz I bloody am.
Take away friedel and you've got nothing left basically.

as for the list of defenders..I suggest you actually watch them before you rubbish them.
ever seen Micheal dawson play (for example)???
no of course you havent.

Who is betting that the yanks try to turn this into a thread about friedel???
nothing ceases to amaze me where these yank clowns are concerned.

Beakmon FC · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
Even on a thread about English central defenders the yanks cant resist bigging up their goalkeepers.
Does anyone get bored of reading about their grossly over-rated goalkeepers??
Cuz I bloody am.
Take away friedel and you've got nothing left basically.

as for the list of defenders..I suggest you actually watch them before you rubbish them.
ever seen Micheal dawson play (for example)???
no of course you havent.

Who is betting that the yanks try to turn this into a thread about friedel???
nothing ceases to amaze me where these yank clowns are concerned.
Click to expand...

Nothing after Friedl?

Keller's not to shabby, especially when you consider the crap he has playing in front of him!

Tim Howard
Adin Brown
Joe Cannon
Nick Rimando
Kevin Hartman
Heck...I'd even take Tony Meola over most Brit Keepers.......

sinner78 · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by Beakmon FC

Tim Howard
Adin Brown
Joe Cannon
Nick Rimando
Kevin Hartman
Heck...I'd even take Tony Meola over most Brit Keepers.......
Click to expand...

who???

This is a thread about english central defenders.
Not a yank goalkeeper thread.

Prenn · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by Beakmon FC
Nothing after Friedl?

Keller's not to shabby, especially when you consider the crap he has playing in front of him!

Tim Howard
Adin Brown
Joe Cannon
Nick Rimando
Kevin Hartman
Heck...I'd even take Tony Meola over most Brit Keepers.......
Click to expand...

Tested at the highest level of MLS!!

Give me a break.

Outside Friedel your keepers are no different to ours.

Mobile · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by Prenn
Tested at the highest level of MLS!!

Give me a break.

Outside Friedel your keepers are no different to ours.
Click to expand...

Oh, let them have their goalkeepers. It's all they've got.

rymannryan · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by Cweedchop
I guess it all depends on what you think is quality..

Out of that bunch of players, I think only Ferdinand and Campbell are any good.. The rest are ordinary at best (international standards) with the lone exception being maybe Upson...

As far as the comparison to the US in that we have the best collection of goalkeepers, if you are suggesting that England has the same luxury at central defence, I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken..

Give me any of the Italian center halves any day of the week....
Click to expand...

I did forget Upson, but I never saw him play. He was too busy rotting under Wenger before being sold to Birmingham City. I've seen every other defender on that list play at least twice. Michael Dawson being the one I've only seen twice. And at 19, he was not out of place at all.

Rio and Sol need no explaining really, they are just great defenders. The others, for the most part, have not seen much international time, but in the Premiership they are great defenders (other than Dawson who plays in the first division with Nottingham Forest. It won't be long before he's in the Premiership. Sven called him up for England's get-together last November). You say that Upson is the only one other than Sol and Rio that has international ability, but it speaks volumes that Wenger would sell Upson, and is trying to bring in Terry. Terry is a year younger as well.

I don't think I'm mistaken when I say England has a luxury at center back. Once Sven has given all of them a couple games, he could place any of them on the field and they wouldn't look out of place.

As for Italian center backs, they too are very strong in this position, but I don't think to the same degree as England. Nesta in particular is very good, but I still think England has the upper hand in terms of the number of quality center backs. You honestly think someone like Materazzi is better than any of the defenders I have listed?

Which brings me to my original purpose of this thread, basically speculating that maybe Sven could try to get more of these defenders on the field by putting them in fullback positions.

WatfordFC Fan · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by Beakmon FC
Nothing after Friedl?

Keller's not to shabby, especially when you consider the crap he has playing in front of him!

Tim Howard
Adin Brown
Joe Cannon
Nick Rimando
Kevin Hartman
Heck...I'd even take Tony Meola over most Brit Keepers.......
Click to expand...

You are ridiculous. You actually consider these keepers (apart from Howard) to be anything special? They play in MLS, facing mediocre strikers most weeks. Most of them have never seen pressure in their playing lives (unless you call attempting to qualify for the MLS playoffs a high pressure situation). Try battling against relegation, qualifying for Europe, facing a penalty in a local derby. That's pressure. Face it, these goalkeepers have no credentials playing in MLS. Please don't overhype players no one outside the U.S. has ever heard of.

sinner78 · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by rymannryan
I did forget Upson, but I never saw him play. He was too busy rotting under Wenger before being sold to Birmingham City. I've seen every other defender on that list play at least twice. Michael Dawson being the one I've only seen twice. And at 19, he was not out of place at all.

Rio and Sol need no explaining really, they are just great defenders. The others, for the most part, have not seen much international time, but in the Premiership they are great defenders (other than Dawson who plays in the first division with Nottingham Forest. It won't be long before he's in the Premiership. Sven called him up for England's get-together last November). You say that Upson is the only one other than Sol and Rio that has international ability, but it speaks volumes that Wenger would sell Upson, and is trying to bring in Terry. Terry is a year younger as well.

I don't think I'm mistaken when I say England has a luxury at center back. Once Sven has given all of them a couple games, he could place any of them on the field and they wouldn't look out of place.

As for Italian center backs, they too are very strong in this position, but I don't think to the same degree as England. Nesta in particular is very good, but I still think England has the upper hand in terms of the number of quality center backs. You honestly think someone like Materazzi is better than any of the defenders I have listed?

Which brings me to my original purpose of this thread, basically speculating that maybe Sven could try to get more of these defenders on the field by putting them in fullback positions.
Click to expand...

England had a solid defence at the world cup.
In fact we probably had the best defence and were only undone by seamans blunder against Brazil.

Where was the italian defence in Japan/korea eh??

rymannryan · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
England had a solid defence at the world cup.
In act we probably had the best defence and were only undone by seamans blunder against Brazil.

Click to expand...

Right, but I was basing this on the qualifier from the other night where I heard the defense was not so solid.

superdave · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
Even on a thread about English central defenders the yanks cant resist bigging up their goalkeepers.
Click to expand...

I think you mean "big upping."

And the joke will be on you guys when FIFA starts allowing 2 goalkeepers in a match. Then you'll see!!!!

GoHawks4 · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by rymannryan
Gareth Southgate - 32
Sol Campbell - 28
Rio Ferdinand - 24
Johnathan Woodgate - 23
Wes Brown - 23
John Terry - 22
Matthew Upson - 23 (?)
Michael Dawson - 19

It appears that this is certainly England's loaded position. With the U.S., its goalkeepers. As of now, Sol Campbell and Rio Ferdinand are easily first choice. But at what point do the likes of Terry and Woodgate push the envelope and have a chance to break through? It appears that Sven has more faith in Southgate than Terry and Woodgate when Rio or Sol is injured. So when will the others have their chance to break through and do any of you honestly think that they can beat Rio or Sol out for a spot?

Personally, from what I've seen, they're all excellent defenders, some stronger than others in certain areas. Sol seems the most indespinsable IMO.

So the pecking order goes something like this:
- Sol Campbell - Arsenal (28)
- Rio Ferdinand - Manchester United (24)
- Gareth Southgate - Middlesbrough (32)
- Jonothan Woodgate - Newcastle United (23)
- John Terry - Chelsea (22)
- Wes Brown - Manchester United (23)
- Michael Dawson (19)

This is just my judgement based on what I've seen, not totally sure how accurate it really is, but its still an overwhelming level of talent at a spot that only has two players on the field at the same time. This makes me think that if there was anyway to get more of these defenders into the backline on the field at the same time, then it should be done.

England tried a new diamond formation in the qualifier the other night. (which I must admit I did not see the game) And from what I read, it helped in the middle of the field, but left the outsides cruelly exposed. As wonderful as Ashley Cole and Wayne Bridge are when it comes to attacking out of the left fullback position, sometimes it appears they leave the defense exposed, particularly in the new formation. The same may go for Neville or Mills. (again, I can't base this on my observations, just from what I've read) So maybe Sven should look into placing someone like Terry in one of the fullback positions. He's capable of playing this position and has proved it with Chelsea.

If the strong pool of center backs could have more than two players on the field at the same time, maybe the English defence would be less exposed on the outsides. Thus allowing them to more effectively utilize their new diamond formation which appears to be more beneficial to their attack. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Joleon Lescott has to be on that list too. I saw him play for Wolverhampton this season and he is class.

Clan · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by rymannryan
I don't think I'm mistaken when I say England has a luxury at center back. Once Sven has given all of them a couple games, he could place any of them on the field and they wouldn't look out of place
Click to expand...

Of course you're not mistaken.
He's talking out his arse when he says they're not that good.

Good point also about the level of competition for the keepers.

rymannryan · Jun 15, 2003

Re: Re: England Is Blessed With Central Defenders

Originally posted by GoHawks4
Joleon Lescott has to be on that list too. I saw him play for Wolverhampton this season and he is class.
Click to expand...

You're right. He was very good as well. But honestly, I don't think he's better than any of the defenders I listed. I've only seen him play twice though. He's still very good. Thanks for bringing him up.

GoHawks4 · Jun 15, 2003

I actually think you have Wes Brown a bit over-rated on your list. Otherwise you're pretty much spot on although I have seen very little of Michael Dawson.

rymannryan · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by GoHawks4
I actually think you have Wes Brown a bit over-rated on your list. Otherwise you're pretty much spot on although I have seen very little of Michael Dawson.
Click to expand...

Brown is still near the bottom though. He's only in front of Dawson IMO, and that's solely because of experience. I guess Matthew Upson and Lescott should be placed somewhere on the list as well, but IMO, they're both pretty far down.

I also had a little trouble deciding who I rated higher between Woodgate and Terry. Any suggestions?

Clan · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by rymannryan

I also had a little trouble deciding who I rated higher between Woodgate and Terry. Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

Not much between then really.
Woodgate has a vast amount of expierence over Terry even at his youthfull age.
Terry really has only the one season-this past one-under his belt as a full time starter, which could only happen when Ranieri managed to get gallas to switch to right full when all three where fit.

In reading the game i think Terry is a little better and thus his positioning sence sees him in better stead to ward off aerial attacks.On the ground though his lack of pace puts him firmly behind Woodgate.If a player gets by him he won't catch up.

In aiding the attack i think terry wins hands down as his goals are quite more frequent than Woodgates.

All in all though can't really go wrong with either of 'em.

rymannryan · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by Clanblue
Not much between then really.
Woodgate has a vast amount of expierence over Terry even at his youthfull age.
Terry really has only the one season-this past one-under his belt as a full time starter, which could only happen when Ranieri managed to get gallas to switch to right full when all three where fit.

In reading the game i think Terry is a little better and thus his positioning sence sees him in better stead to ward off aerial attacks.On the ground though his lack of pace puts him firmly behind Woodgate.If a player gets by him he won't catch up.

In aiding the attack i think terry wins hands down as his goals are quite more frequent than Woodgates.

All in all though can't really go wrong with either of 'em.
Click to expand...

Excellent break down Clanblue, but I think that Woodgate is probably about even with Terry when it comes to positioning. However, I didn't realize Terry had such a lack of pace. But I also agree that Terry is much better in the attack, which is why I suggested perhaps he move to a fullback position if it becomes a problem for England. I recall him playing fullback for Chelsea at some point. Did he do well there?

Also, anyone know if Michael Dawson can play the fullback position?

Clan · Jun 15, 2003

Well, saying he has a lack of pace probably doesn't give him the credit he deserves i suppose.
What i really mean is that he isn't the fastest bloke ever to play in the rear and a player with above average pace will skin him most of the time and he-being of average pace-will be left trying to catch up and giving away the inevitable penalty when he tries to tackle from behind in the box.

But, he is a great positional player and being a center-half that is the foremost quality that is neded.Good in the air and hard to muscle off the ball he is turning into quite an adept center back.

Can't for the life of me remember him playing full back though--was that the away game to Stavenger?
Not saying he didn't and being that i don't get to see or even hear all the games on the radio anymore it could very well have been so.

Ranieri has persuaded Gallas to take the full back option precisely because of the pace issue.

rymannryan · Jun 15, 2003

Originally posted by Clanblue
Well, saying he has a lack of pace probably doesn't give him the credit he deserves i suppose.
What i really mean is that he isn't the fastest bloke ever to play in the rear and a player with above average pace will skin him most of the time and he-being of average pace-will be left trying to catch up and giving away the inevitable penalty when he tries to tackle from behind in the box.

But, he is a great positional player and being a center-half that is the foremost quality that is neded.Good in the air and hard to muscle off the ball he is turning into quite an adept center back.

Can't for the life of me remember him playing full back though--was that the away game to Stavenger?
Not saying he didn't and being that i don't get to see or even hear all the games on the radio anymore it could very well have been so.

Ranieri has persuaded Gallas to take the full back option precisely because of the pace issue.
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I could be the wrong one, but for some reason I thought I remembered Gallas and Desailly in the middle together with Terry on the right and Le Saux (sp?) on the left. Again maybe I'm wrong. For some reason I thought he played fullback sometime.

How's his distribution? I honestly don't remember.

GoHawks4 · Jun 15, 2003

You spelled Le Saux's name right.

I personally would take John Terry over Woodgate because of physical presance, but I could see why somebody would take Woodgate because of his better athleticism.

sendorange · Jun 24, 2003

Dawson is a talent, but I'm reserving judgement on him until he's played in the Premiership. It's not that hard to look class in the Nationwide, for every Jermaine Jenas there's an Ade Akinbiyi.

One omission from your list (IMO) is Ledley King of Tottenham, the defence of the team was very poor last season, but he was struggling with form and injury and it wasn't his fault. When he played, he looked as promising as ever.

He's got the physical build, pace and he's got very good technical skill. He needs a strong year (and much better play from his team mates) to build his confidence, but I think he'll definitely be back in or around the England squad again soon.

DaeHaMinGuk · Jun 25, 2003

Tim Howard and Friedel will be the EPL's best two goalies next year.

sendorange · Jun 25, 2003

Eh?

The best goalkeeper in the Premiership is Shay Given, that's widely accepted. Only he could play behind a defence which is one of the weakest in the league and yet still help take the team to two consecutive top 4 finishes.

Friedel was the best shotstopper last season, but that's only one part of the position, there's also organising the defence, crosses and distribution. All of which Friedel is lacking on.

Most talented goalkeeper is Paul Robinson, he's a very good shotstopper and taker of crosses, and his distribution is excellent. He just needs a bit more experience. Moving to Arsenal or Man Utd (as rumoured) would be good for him.