Elecciones ANFP 2010/2011

i'm not talking about honesty or hard work or any of that, I think Bielsa and HMN both demonstrated that they're honest hardworking people...

I'm talking about an ability to be graceful losers.

- When Bielsa figured HMN was going to lose the election he tried to interfere which many people thought was inappropriate.

- then when he resigned he attacked a bunch of people, many justly, and specifically blamed the 3 big clubs for his departure:

- but Colo Colo and UC had never had any disputes with Bielsa or any problem lending players, they signed statements they would not interfere with the copa america, and they were always helpful with the NT......UdeChile had some problems with Bielsa and his medical staff, but they voted for the non-playoff tournament that he wanted ------> so what's the big deal, why blame them?

- Basically their crime, I think, is that they orchestrated the opposition to HMN ...

- HMN then goes on in his interview and blasts Jadue and Segovia, which is fine for a lot of reasons pertinent to what was going on. But to blame Pinera for what in the end amounted to a statement he made to him before he sold his shares in colo colo seems ridiculous....


- like I said, it just seems that they're very resentful to the fact that there was an opposition, and then further that they lost.

- whatever you want to say about the guys that were chosen or the reasons is something else, but here you have two classy people in Bielsa and HMN that to me stooped to the level of the other two idiots.....

- i found it classless, bitter, and below them

 

yeah, that's what i said. Colo Colo and Catolica voted for playoffs but signed the statement 'de compromiso' for the copa america...

UdeChile didn't sign that paper, but was the only team to vote for no playoffs -- for Bielsa..


I guess my point is that the only reason i can see for blaming the big 3 for his departure is that Bielsa blames them for posing a opposition list to HMN ....and at that point, though you may not like it, it was a fair and democratic process....sounds overly bitter and a bit classless

 

Yes they orchestrated the opposition agains HMN because of the CDF money, nothing else. They thought for themselves, not for the national team. I agree with Bielsa, even though those as......holes will never recognize it.

 

- but is there a direct connection between the CDF situation and the national team? Aside from philosophical perspectives on what is preferable, is there really a reason for Bielsa to be so intricately invested in that debate?

- It seems that in one way or another the three 'big' clubs dealt with that issue in a way that disassociated it from the NT completely. They were, and should have been, two different things

 

I think there's absolutely no doubt about that.

as for what the intentions were of the smaller clubs that 'sold out'...we don't know...

and wether or not its in the long term interests of the club they're obligated to look out for....we'll see in time

 

You seem to not understand a thing about the interest of the 3 big teams in regards to HMN and Bielsa.

If HMN would have continued, there wouldn`t have been a play off championship, and HMN would have invested in anything that could give a stronger potential to the NT (this directly hits Bielsa, btw).

Through the CDF, actually, 3 out of 4 games, include one of the big 3 teams, reason that was argued when they demanded the ANFP through the Civil courts, that they were entitled of having a bigger share on the benefits that the CDF produces, over the rest of the teams. Reason why the judiciary system, stated in their favour, the share that they behold now. Today, the 3 big teams are entitled the share of 25 % of all the utilities, while the rest is split among the 29 other teams and the Federation, which uses this money to invest in the NT (again it affects directly Bielsa`s job).

If HMN would have continued, also he was willing to buy completely the 20 % remaining of the property of the CDF, so he, as ANFP, could have complete dominion on the administration of the chanel, and would have shown trough transmissions, the double or triple of the amounts of the games that are now being transmitted, which would affect directly the share to which the 3 big teams are currently entitled of the CDF, as they would not be the actors of 3 out of 4 games, but about, 2 out of 10 games, which would mean that the 25 % they hold today would also come in the same share entitled to all the teams in our Federation. Maybe they would get a proportional amount of the share, but it would mean at least half of what they are entitled today.

In other words the 3 big teams would have been the greatest losers if HMN would have got elected and the shares of their teams would cost lots lower than what they cost today, and of course as the actual share holders would lose money, or not win as much as they are winning now, they had to do everything in their reach to out-vote, HMN.

As a side commentary, there is no mistery today, that many politicians (in all sides of the political spectrum), are share holders of the "big 3", among them, Mr. "Serrasalminae", although he as an honourable man, sold his shares to his father in law (a very close relative), so it is very likely that once he leaves his current position he`ll be able to buy them back again, or if not, maybe his wife can, unless her father, is cut with the same scissors as her husband is, and decides to F**ks them both up, reasons why it is possible that the business man her husband is, doubted if to sell them or not, in the first place .

 

Whoa ho ho just read this......

http://www.eyeonvina.com/2011/02/mayne-nicholls-pinera-conspired-against-me/

Its a revolt?

 

I'm trying to figure out the connection between Bielsa (the NT) and the CDF situation ---> other than it resulted in HMN oust.

- i thought it was the 'consejo' that decided the tournament system, not the president... Either way it doesn't matter, because at the moment that the teams agree to sign the letter of 'compromiso' with the NT, it doesn't affect Copa America preparation in the least

- i don't get the connection you're drawing here. How does the CDF situation impact the NT situation?? The only part that seems like it might would be what you said about the 'federation' getting profits from it, but there was never an indication that the change would result in a pay decreases, investment decreases, less friendlies etc........

- it would have been great, i agree.....but i don't see what it has to do with the NT and its preparation going into the Copa America and the WCQ

- this is clear... but all i'm getting from this is that Bielsa's compromiso was with HMN and not with either the NT or with Chile.



- the CDF situation, as i see it, had nothing to do with the NT and Bielsa. So, despite me liking the guy, it irks me that he got involved in it so intimately

 

i think they're right in indicating that it seems like an attempt to harm Pinera's popularity......

I find it classless on HMN part for a few reasons
- its all based on hearsay and a complete lack of proof
- if there are people responsible for Bielsa's departure, Pinera wouldn't be in the top 10....26 club presidents voted against HMN, how are you going to blame this on a dude who used to be shareholder of a club?
- even if it were true and you had all the proof in the world, the teams that voted against him were in all their right to do so, democratically, economically, and the majority of club owners agree

 

As in all points you keep on circling around this same issue, I`ll only tell you that the Federation or ANFP isn`t a money building factory, but it needs to make good business management in order to have more money to accomplish every project it has, otherwise no projects can be done. The NT is a project as any other one, and so in order to be able to invest more money in it, the money must come from somewhere. During the HMN administration, great part of it came out of the profits of the CDF.
So it`s simply a math issue here :
1+1 = achievements or better conditions for future improvement.

If it not were due to the money HMN got from the CDF, Juan Pinto Duran, would still be the old pitch, with half of it, being dirt, with the inadequate conditions it had in the past. And now due to HMN and Bielsa`s work (and also his self sacrifice, where many times he had to reach to his own pocket, when the Federation didn`t have the money), through it, it is a model field, with propper instalations that can ensure a good preparation environment for every future NT.

 

Incorrect.
Opposition were 26 votes, not club presidents, where first divission teams had two votes each, and second divission had only one vote each.

The winning list were basicly made out of 10 first divission teams (included among them the big 3, Union Española (whose president was Segovia, head of the list), Wanderers, and of teams that were about to be relegated that year (Everton), and also by 6 other teams whose presidents were sold out for positions within the future head staff of the directory. Mr. Etcheverry (La Serena, actual vice-president), as president of his team voted against the wills of his teams associates and against the will of their main sponsor which is the city where the team is, and gives the team its name.

Very strange it was when the same day as the elections were held, Mr. Piranha, president of Chile, made his great announcement that the stadiums of Valparaiso (Wanderers) and Viña del mar (Everton), were going to get a 1 thousand million for remodelations.

 

- ok, i get it. you're saying that the change in the CDF situation had the potential to negatively affect the economic situation of the NT and for that reason Bielsa was so tied to HMN re-election.

is this right?

 

This topic is not about Bielsa, but HMN and the past elections.
However, Bielsa left for his own reasons, as he did give the new elected officials a chance, but he said it very clearly in the press conference : Jadue gave him all the elements in order that he must not trust on the new elected officials ever, and therefore he will not be able to do his job right, as he expects always to do.

 

- Its clear that Bielsa took a stand in support of HMN prior to the elections. He also blamed the big 3 for his departure, among other things.

- i questioned why he would blame the big 3 for his departure (given that they weren't going to obstruct the Copa America preparation)

- the answer given has to do with the CDF situation and HMN's election loss...Thus emerged my question: what is the connection between the CDF situation (HMN election defeat) and the National Team? Why would Bielsa be so tied up in that particular issue to such an extent that he would blame it, as a primary reason, for his departure?

- your answer, as i understand it, has to do with the idea that the CDF situation would result in lost 'recursos' for the NT and impact his ability to work

- to me it doesn't seem a satisfactory answer, but i do think it's really the only one that can be made on this point.

 

He took a stand, becaus HMN is person he can trust, and he has worked with. A person, which he knew can never be a problem to work with. He blamed the big 3 not for his departure, but for the change in ANFP. And the change has brought people, who he can not trust, who have shown him are not people he can work with.

To make sth against someone doesnt mean to do it public. I mean the fact they werent going to obstruct the CA preparation doesnt mean anything. Even if they give Bielsa everything he want, they are changing the presindent of ANFP, and the new one is a person Bielsa can not work with! Bielsas problem was not the preparation for CA or sth like that. Isnt it that clear. Actually the big teams have made it very smart. It seems there are people like you, who still believe they were correct, have not made anything wrong, have supported Bielsa etc. Thats not the fact. Thats what they wanted to be hidden. But its so clear. Im sure if Bielsa have continued, the new rulers of ANFP and the big 3 would have made his life a nightmare! Thats the reson he left the country!!!

You are repeating the same thing, my friend, I dont know if you belive in what you are writing, or you are just trying to be a contra. CDF is the main reason why HMN is not a president of ANFP now. The big 3 are the people, who were aginst the views of Harold for the money from CDF. Respectively CDF and the big 3 are the reason for the change of the rulers in ANFP. And they itself are the reason why Bielsa can not continue, because he can not work with them, because they are people, who he can not trust. So CDF and CC, UC and UdC are the biggest reasons, why he left the country!!!

I hope my answers are satisfactory. I have the feeling you are one of the presidents either of anfp or the big 3 teams. They all wanted to keep Bielsa. They all have done everything to keep him, to make him happy etc. They all blah blah blah. Theyve done nothing to keep him. To be unable to keep someone, who wants to be kept is a sign that either your are unable to do anything in this life, or you simply dont want to do it!!!

 

- yes. this is as i see it too, his 'beef' with the big 3 has to do with their opposition to HMN. Its not about the CDF per say, as was being argued prior [it was suggested that it had something to do with less money coming in to the NT etc...]

- I guess it depends on what you view as the obligations of the clubs.

- I find it hard to believe that they have the obligation to keep in the presidency if they were against his policies just because the DT loves him
(this aside from what those policies might be...I agreed with HMN, but i have no doubt that the clubs had the right to form an opposition)

- to suggest that the big 3 would have made his life a nightmare is misguided and unfounded......its not there job to keep in the president he wants.....

- there job is to free up their players, provide him with seating when he wants to watch games, give him info on their players and their youth squads, maybe allow him to use their stadiums etc.....

- with the possible exception of la U, this wouldn't have been an issue...... as it never was prior

- it seems then that Bielsa's compromiso was with HMN and not the ANFP...

I wish

- look, my issue isn't with Bielsa leaving. He can say I don't like Segovia or Jadue and i can't work with them...to me this is fine

- i have a problem with him specifically singling out the big 3 for his departure simply for setting up an opposition to HMN....

- at the end of the day the majority of clubs, for whatever reason, voted for Jadue...you, me, Bielsa can disagree with the issues but we have to respect it.

- to me, by blaming the big 3 Bielsa for what is essentially nothing more than establishing an opposition to HMN that would not affect Bielsa's work in any way........its bitter and contrary to the class he had demonstrated throughout his term

 

Why is it so dificult for you to understand ?

Bielsa`s was hired by the ANFP, who by then had HMN as president.

All their comitment, ANFP and NT staff, when they signed to work together was to a project, which was to raise the level of our NT, and all it implies. Not only one good result, but many, even projecting it, till 2015 or more. Till now they partially achieved what they planed for, with the classification and performance in the recent WC and with the development of an adequate training facility, as how Juan Pinto Duran, looks like today in comparisson to what it was before, which will sure help the work of the next generations to come, but with the change in management, this issue now has become doubtful for the future, as these facilities aren`t inexpensive to sustain by themselves. Also keep in mind that Bielsa supported Vaccia as the coach of the younger teams. Maybe part of how they performed in the recent under20 Championship, was due to the fact that Vaccia tried to play in the style that Bielsa had asked him to do (keep in mind that the goal of the project is for a medium timeline period, not for inmediate present), so now as Bielsa has resigned, we will never know if this had something to do with it.

Bielsa saw in the new officials a lack of comprehension of the goals of the project and a lack of the required support to it, which was the only bond they had, so he resigned to it, as well.

Btw, the original elections in past November, was a perfect draw among both lists, 16 teams of the total 32, voted for each of the lists, and what gave Segovia the lead was the fact that his list had more votes from first divission teams (1ªA). Anyhow, despite all the lies HMN`s opposition has said about him, HMN accepted the final results and also from that day, he said he will no longer insist or even present himself as a candidate, if the issues that involved Segovia, came through against their list. Till now, he has fulfilled his promise, and in the elections when Jadue won, he wasn`t among the representatives of the official list, as he said he will not be.
You can see how each of the teams voted in that ocassion, in this link from wikipedia :

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elecci%C3%B3n_presidencial_de_la_ANFP_de_2010

 

you're right Rickdog, this shouldn't be difficult to understand.

Let me spell it out for you. Here is what i'm saying:


- Bielsa had all the right in the world to leave for whatever reasons he wanted....

- the main reasons why he left seem to have to do primarily with issues of distrust of the new leadership

- I have a problem with the fact he blamed the big 3 for his departure....Why?


Because what they did boils down to nothing more than establishing an opposition to HMN and defeating him...

What they did was 100% legal, 100% democratic, supported by the majority of clubs (26-22 i believe)....

meanwhile, the clubs (especially UC and Colo Colo) have been open to helping the NT to their own detriment....

To extend that further and suggest that they can't even hold an opposition to the leadership would be too much power given to the dt.


You can agree or disagree, but this is what its about...not about whether you or I would have supported HMN or not

Its like the famous saying: I disagree with what you said but i'll die for your right to say it.

in this case it seems Bielsa disagrees with the new leadership, and further undermines their right to even engage in the democratic practice by blaming them for his exit

 

Well you are entitled to think about the issue as you wish. I only suggest you to read this article, for a better comprehenssion about what you think, and about those who think diferent than you, like me for instance.

Here is the link :http://ciperchile.cl/2010/11/25/las-platas-de-la-roja-el-botin-detras-de-la-guerra-del-futbol/
(also take a close look at who made this report, specially where it says "Acerca de CIPER").

I also suggest you to see the link I posted before about how the votes went on in the elections of past November, before you continue arguing that most of the teams gave the opposition their votes. It was a 16 -16 perfect draw, only that 1ªA teams held two votes in regards to 1ªB teams. So if democracy is your argument (The choice of the majority), you`ll understand that your argument is wrong.

 

- this is actually a good article, one of the best i've read on the subject

- it indicates the arguments relatively fairly...its clear that both HMN and the opposition had fair points, and its easy to see why the smaller clubs would choose to go with the opposition for financial reasons.

- for fans like us (with the exception of the Garra Blanca thugs) its pretty clear that HMN position was the most favorable....but i understand the position of the majority of the clubs

- to say that my argument is wrong is.....wrong

- this is primarily because the issue as i've discussed it isn't about who won or who lost, or by how much etc....

The democratic exercise here was with the fact that they formed an opposition and contested the leadership (win, lose or draw)........

- I've said that my problem with Bielsa's problem is that while he has the right to disagree with the decision, he has to respect it as democratic.....by singling them out, and blaming them he failed to do that.

- then to that you add the fact that they won by ANFP rules in both elections, once as a result of the fact that apertura clubs votes count for more, and then the second time (i believe) in an overall vote tally)

- i don't think anyone on HMN side has argued that the process was undemocratic or unlawful

 

Yes, and I`ve told you many times that HMN accepted his defeat, and made a step backwards in not presenting himself again, if the elections were declared null, if Segovia wasn`t given the right to asume, cause as how the rules for elections in the ANFP were established, he knew that he had lost no matter what.

Bielsa did respect them, as he still gave the new elected staff in the second elections, time, in order to prove him that they were worthy of working with, in which they failed, as he said that to him there was no visible leadership as Jadue, who is suposed to be president, failed in every promise he made, telling as an excuse that he couldn`t do anything without the aproval of others. As Bielsa said, he showed Bielsa that he couldn`t be trusted on anything, reasons why he resigned.

About Bielsa`s decission to point out those who were to guilt, he said it clearly in his last press conference. Once he had explained the reasons of his resignation, he simply pointed out that he would say some of his own opinions about everything that had happened, which weren`t the reasons of his resignation, and there, through his opinions, he guilted the 3 big teams (it`s his opinion and nothing more than that, you can think whatever you want about them. In my case I believe he is right as I am convinced this was all about money, and who gets the chance to keep it : or the Federation (which involves all clubs, players, the NT and also in a certain degree the fans), or the associates which are the share holders that give them ownership of the clubs, and no one else.
In time, as Bielsa said, the rich guys (not their clubs), here will get richer, while all the rest of us will have to accept it....

 

ok....


on a slightly different topic, Bielsa was never going to work with Segovia, but would he have had more success negotiating with potential candidates for the dt position than Jadue?

 

Al parecer, Segovia vuelve al cuadrilatero :

http://www.cooperativa.cl/jorge-segovia-si-me-piden-ayuda-en-la-anfp-voy-a-volver/prontus_nots/2011-02-16/130345.html
;