El Carnicero - The Lisandro Martínez Thread

How shit are the other 80? - AWB Thread

 

and


Varane stats : https://fbref.com/en/players/9f8e9423/all_comps/Raphael-Varane-Stats---All-Competitions

vs

Maguire Stats: https://fbref.com/en/players/d8931174/Harry-Maguire#all_stats_possession

 

@benni... just FYI, the ‘progressive passing’ in those visualisations is not progressive passing as we’d understand it. It means what proportion of the passes the player makes is progressive. Martinez played 87 passes per 90 for Ajax, hence his proportion will seem low, but his volume per 90 is 99th percentile.

It’s stupid naming of the metric, because it makes Lisandro Martinez look like he isn’t progressive, when that’s 100% what he is.

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

I posted those stats because Johno said he expected Maguire to start because of his contributions on offense.

Whatever they are.

 

Also from FBREF:

Progressive Distance per 90
Maguire: 320+
Varane: 292+

Progressive Carries per 90 distance:
Maguire:180
Varane: 120

so that's almost 110 yards more progressive per 90 if you consider passing and carrying.

Lindelof might be one of the better long passers we have but he's less progressive than Maguire (comfortably) and also less progressive than Varane (generally).

Lindelof's progression tends to stick in the memmory though because it will often lead to a chance. In the main though, he struggles to progress the ball against pressure, so he'll get his progression in big chunks. Teams leave space for him to carry or for him to get his head up and if Rashy is in space, then boom, big chunk. He does that once, teams pressure him or drop off Rashford and then he's done as a weapon.

To my original point, Maguire is our 2nd best CB on the ball. I value Varane slightly more in games where we'll be under intense pressure because of Varane's two footedness (he's by FAR the most two footed player we have) and his ability to play w/ 1 touch.

I hate to be defending Maguire because he was dogshit last year and I despise a CB who always wants to mark space and rarely picks up attackers in space but he really is exceptional as a progressor.

I agree with the general consensus that he doesn't 'ping' as many balls. We might see a little more of that with him playing RCB which will open up more angles for a right footer. I expect that he will carry the ball forward with less success on the right though. It is about angles and how defenders will use their cover shadow against him when closing down. On the left, he could open his body up to pass to the right and if defenders closed that, he could run straight ahead or slightly to the left and still have progressive passing options on his right foot. On the right, if he opens his body up and they close him down, he'll have to put the ball on his left foot. I don't trust him to be as effective in those situations.

 

His biggest weakness on the ball is when he’s pressed high. He might be better as a RCB as it makes him face up the pitch, where being a LCB makes him naturally face his own goal - which is when he’s a genuine problem.

Lisandro’s debut will be all it takes for people to really see the gulf in class on the ball.

 

This is how Harry Maguire allegedly progresses the ball via dribbling



https://youtube.com/shorts/FCL8ufjtY-c?feature=share

I dont see it. Im sorry. I think Varane can do anything Maguire can do. I dont see how with the high line and his lack of decisiveness near the halfway line, he's the partner for Martinez.

 

How many teams spend less than 15 minutes in a game...NOT high pressing us?

I may be wrong, but almost every team will try and press us out of a goalkick. Its been like that. I remember even Watford and Burnley were pressing us from goalkicks.

 

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a CB with the range of output that Bailly has in his locker. He has the ability to be truly world class at his peak and but also the ability to give away multiple goals in a game when he’s not. Plus he’s made of glass. Shame he could have been so damn good.

 

Well last season especially, teams targeted us because we were so readily giving the ball away close to our own goal. We were actually ok at it in 20/21 as far as I recall, but we seemed to regress horribly last year. Part of it is down to the players, eg Maguire getting isolated so easily - but the system was a big part of that too.

Ten Hag will fix the system, looks like he already has - but I can imagine him being pretty uneasy with Maguire when he gets forced onto his left foot facing his own goal.

 

Im not one to make excuses for Maguire, because he was truly awful last season, but when it comes to being high pressed our CMs did our back line no favors. McT hides from passes and Fred has such poor control at times that he’s a walking turnover. Getting someone like FDJ should help the issue a lot.

 

I still cannot fathom how a Brazilian player like Fred who has good skills has such a terrible first touch.

 

Well, whether you see it or not, the numbers prove that Maguire is significantly more progressive than Varane.

I'd be happy for either Maguire or Varane to partner Martinez, truth be told, but Maguire's passing range >>> and the Maguire vs Varane debate is academic. Varane will be injured for 10+ games if he's a regular starter.

 

I'd rather see Varane.

 

Will just have to see how things shake out. Maguire has to improve if he wants a future at United. He's lucky to have another crack at it and former center-back like ten Hag as a coach.

 

If he brings that energy, rivals will hate him. He'll be our new Herrera.

 

Herrera was a pest. Martinez actually has some bite.