Dynamo Academy Sucks

Discussion in 'Houston Dynamo' started by Soccergodlss, Jan 20, 2017.

  1. Brian Gilchriest

    Eintracht Frankfurt
    United States
    Oct 3, 2020
    Good thing about Training Compensation is even if he goes elsewhere and signs a pro contract, we are eligible for a cut.
     
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  2. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    words, schmurds. most athletes start out self motivated and self critical and don't need the supposed motivation conservatives want to read into the process politically. you put them on the B team they will set out to show you you were wrong, for a period of time. the way to cement motivation is to reward some. the process works. the way to lose motivation is to not promote enough. they will doubt the opportunity actually exists.

    there is at least one player -- rios -- who simply doesn't belong on the senior team. can't even crack the B team. the pretense that most of the B team aren't better than him is laughable. now, in reality it's one slot. but that's one more reserve you could call if you cut rios. further confirming we will reward strong Bs.

    beyond that, i don't buy a chunk of backups and reserves on HD1 are inherently above HD2. HD2 over time -- through the fall into next year -- need to think they get a fair shake competing with valentin, palomino, junqua, etc. you shouldn't have to "message" that competition. they should already feel like they are competing for potential promotion at any time they earn it.

    i think a lot of our HD1 bench is either unimpactful or poor and they shouldn't be comfortable in their jobs or protected from competition. as long as we sit below the red line they should feel intense pressure that we will make all the changes it takes. even if in practical terms the kids don't get it done. just to signal we don't tolerate this and will give the kids a chance to help fix it.
     
  3. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #428 juvechelsea, Jul 22, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2022
    leave it to you to think this would be a good thing. we advertise our player without a first team deal and don't get a team member for the trouble. amateur hour.
     
  4. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #429 juvechelsea, Jul 22, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2022
    it was not bright to run him out preseason and neither sign him first nor be generous about any offer we made. we made him one big highlight reel.

    related point, some of the twits on here who want to talk down raines and act like the kids should be on like 3-5 year succession plans do not understand how leading prospects work. raines and gitau probably want to be in europe in their late teens or early 20s. if you want to bring them along slow behind 32 year olds you are either not going to get them signed at all or watch them want to transfer 2 years from now. like i said a few months ago, SKC got about a season of starting busio between sub duty and him transferring out. use it or lose it otherwise they will just be financial assets.

    same thing on sebas, if we don't turn this into a winner he will want out. if you tell big ticket players you are serious about contesting the league they will take you at your word. boniek stayed a while because 2 finals told him we were sincere. elis and manotas stayed 4-5 years.

    related point i don't think the fanboys are factoring into their incremental slow rebuild "framing" either the age of the older players or this potential for transfer that shredded what was left of the 2017 team. it is one key reason rebuilds need to be rapid. you cannot take 3 years to get there if the signings and new kids want back out in 3 years. the 2017 team the old players were done by 2018 and the good ones wanted transfers by 2020.

    my impression is we want to superficially compete now -- placate the fans with a minimal playoff qualification -- while building around younger players for later, but i don't think we have adequately considered the potential attrition, either old or young, in that plan. there is a reason i keep asking who the 5-year horizon foundational players are. they aren't the 30+ brigade. it could be the kids and younger signings but they need to feel more like boniek and less like elis. you need to make this a winner faster, make them core players, and compensate them well.
     
  5. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    there's kind of a fake framing going on. the kids aren't competing with HH and sebas initially. at this stage it's rios valentin valdez steres memo baird palomino nelson valdez juqua thiago dorsey ceren castilla bartlow beto coco fafa vs n'doye maples raines and a few others. back end of our team -- including their fellow HD2 loaners -- vs the front end of theirs.

    you frame it that way it is not so obvious who should be where and we should be aiming to reward the performers.
     
  6. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All 20 players called in are also age-eligible for the USMNT U-20’s, which just qualified for the 2023 FIFA U-20 World Cup in Indonesia earlier this summer. and the 2024. 20 of the 23 players are currently part of an MLS franchise.

    Here is a closer look at the training camp roster:

    GOALKEEPERS: Gavin Beavers (Real Salt Lake), Charles DeMarco (BW Gotschee), Dominic Pereira (Orlando City SC).

    DEFENDERS: Tyler Bindon (LAFC), Anthony Gonzalez (Austin FC), Drew Murray (San Jose Earthquakes), Nolan Norris (FC Dallas), Mateo Pinilla (Houston Dynamo FC), Justin Reynolds (Chicago Fire FC), Santiago Suarez (Sacramento Republic FC).

    MIDFIELDERS: Esmir Bajraktarevic (New England Revolution), Noel Buck (New England Revolution), Juan Castilla (Houston Dynamo FC), Benjamin Cremaschi (Inter Miami CF), Bryan Moyado (LAFC), Jack Panayotou (New England Revolution), Brooklyn Raines (Houston Dynamo FC).

    FORWARDS: Reed Baker-Whiting (Seattle Sounders FC), Luke Brennan (Atlanta United FC), Favian Loyola (Orlando City SC), Sergio Oregel Jr. (Chicago Fire FC), Ethan Subachan (Orlando City SC), Marcos Zambrano (Philadelphia Union).
     
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  7. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    U19 is a big deal for select but for YNT it's an awkward age. YNT is more focused on U17 or U20. i think with them 17 it's more they are being looked at for 2025 U20. raines might have an outside shot at 2023 if he immediately played next year.

    i see our problem in the current YNT era as the pool has professionalized -- few college kids at U20 up -- and kids don't start or play much here. so kids here make teams through U17 as select or reserve level players but this is where the bridge problem shows up. they then rot as senior players and don't get picked U20 or U23. HD2 will help this a little in that they will show minutes and production someplace vs no reserve team 2021 or RGV favoring veterans too before that. but the senior team and most fans continue to prefer subbing in safe unimpactful veterans -- even while securing poor results -- to taking risks.

    i've said my raines piece -- i think he's the future 6 here and the haters just don't want to agree with anything i say -- and i see castilla as a technical and direct central player. i am surprised castilla hasn't gotten dressed and to play more because we have so few attacking bench options. most of the bench lately is keepers, backs, and DMs.
     
  8. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
  9. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The young man of ours will take the field in an MLS ASG before he has ever taken the field for his own club.
     
  10. DonJuego

    DonJuego Member+

    Aug 19, 2005
    Austin, TX
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Copied off Dynamo website. We all need some good news. I consider this a possible indication of improved performance by the Dynamo academy.

    Three Houston Dynamo Academy players were named to the U-17 U.S. Youth National Team roster for a seven-day camp, U.S. Soccer announced today. The three players invited by the federation are Nolan Anderson, Andre Gitau and Ezekiel Soto.

    This is the first call up for Anderson who joined the Dynamo Academy earlier this year. The goalkeeper previously played for Murrieta Soccer Academy in California. Anderson is in his first season with the Dynamo Academy who open MLS NEXT play in September.

    Gitau recently represented the Club at the 2022 MLS NEXT All-Star Game in Minnesota. Gitau was the youngest player on the All-Star roster and earned the start for the West. The talented attacker was named to the Rising XI prior to the 2022 Generation adidas Cup and his performance at the MLS NEXT Cup in June earned him a spot on the “Best Of” game at the U-16 category. The 15-year-old regularly trains with Houston Dynamo 2 and has been a regular member of the U-17 U.S. Youth National Team.

    Soto is entering his second season with the Dynamo Academy and recently began training with Dynamo 2. This is the fourth USYNT appearance for Soto who was the youngest player named to the U-17 roster in May. Both Gitau and Soto represented the Dynamo Academy at the international level in a pair of friendlies in Argentina in March and a UEFA Development Tournament in Portugal earlier this year.
     
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  11. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    ages, lineup
    26 24 26
    26 32 23
    28 29 31 23
    36

    subs
    31 34 32 25 28

    castilla, 18, 2 league games in 2 years.
    rios, 19, barely any appearances for either team, ever
    palomino, 21, 3 league appearances in 3 years

    what message does this send to an 18 year old academician considering signing here?


    + andre gitau

    and the first team sucks but the message they radiate is playing the young'ins is quitting even if the old farts finish last on their own steam.
     
  12. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For sure.
    Look, we all knew that years back our Academy had issues finding local talent and even if forming solid youth teams that won games in youth tournaments, there was only a Memito to brag about.
    It now appears our Academy issue is not finding local GHA talent and grooming local youth talent through the Dynamo pipeline but actually is giving our talented U-19 and U-17 guys a decent amount of playing time for our first team that is in bad need of new spirit, aggression and talent. One just can't make this riddle up!
     
  13. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #439 juvechelsea, Aug 22, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2022
    for some reason no one wants to address the cappis/servania/richards elephants in the room.

    it's not just is there talent in houston -- duh -- although we seem to get less of it to MLS than before. how are there fewer pros from here than when i was a kid and HD didn't even exist. it's not just do we have a functioning academy -- and there was a time mid 2010s or so when we had ibeagha and pina and palomino and some others coming up -- this is not the first boomlet ever, and we didn't exactly cash that one in. it's them believing this is the place to stay. it's actually cashing in the chips with some chunk of the roster space. it's getting it through the finish line. part of the finish line is believing i will ever play. is us actually signing and playing HGP and HD2. and not just one dude who plays 30' in 2 games then disappears.

    the message on beto is we'll be interested about age 21 or so if you produce in a second division or reserve league. a USMNT prospect isn't going to want to wait around on that. that might be when a busio -- who is still just 20 -- plans on being in europe. if you don't plan on using the kids til age 21 why not just sign straight to europe.

    to be fair, raines is the counter example but raines strictly speaking isn't ours, which sends a mixed message. i doubt the kids resent him at all. but that particular gambit is more like signing these south american kids, or thor being drafted from college then playing -- it's not an academy sales pitch. it's you can dedicate 8 years to us then we might sign someone from RSL/el paso and fast track them instead.

    and to be real, raines is the best kid i have seen come up in years. but what i don't believe is we are better off carrying rios or subbing on ceren or a back over castilla or palomino.

    i feel like in about 20 ways this year started seemingly fresh but then became previous years fast. when the pressure choices arrive they have the same f*cking mentality and make the same f*cking mistakes. the third rate coaches have more trust in veteran players to try to save their jobs. the same veterans who have them on the chopping block. for a team at this point obviously not going to win this year, it's obnoxiously short term to play for tonight instead of tomorrow. makes no sense. we keep selling this is a project then act in praxis like we are slapping together a TORSO team to win games now.

    which, if we are trying to win now, do not sign quinones and thiago and whatnot, sign me one darned wing or 10 who can contribute 10 assists today.

    OR

    sign more raines and gitau and such and clear the overage bullsh*t out of their flight path, like they do in dallas.

    you cannot do both. the kids water down the payroll and roster space and slots to win now. the 30 year olds steal the minutes from the kids. you have to pick one.

    we remind me of my college coach who could really recruit but never got us above mid-conference because he was a jerk and couldn't juggle the abundance he managed to get. in part due to seniority type preferences. in part due to no sense of how to keep a team happy. he sounds like some of y'all. recruit 30 then play your 15 favorites. the other 15 then want to transfer or quit. you then lose 5 to graduation and need 20 new players. you recruit well again but repeat. recipe for mid-table.

    like i said, they had a bridge with RGV too, the deal is making good enough players BUT ALSO walking them other side of the bridge and bringing them in. ok, i see the bridge, but more importantly, i see people walking the bridge. i trust it holds and doesn't fall in the river. i trust if i work hard and perform you walk me across.

    the tactical mentality changed then reverted. the youth movement seems like mostly talk this year. the idea of signing an aged name brand might even be regression from the elis-era no-names who could actually play. to make this win the decision making needs to change and get smarter. part of that, to me, is carve out somewhere between a modest chunk of a veteran team, or the whole team like dallas, and sell that the academy leads someplace. put a castilla or palomino or gitau in the rotation, get them on the field as a sub, and show there is some payoff, ever, for going down our road.

    but from my POV, you don't even have to believe me. i simply think they should be in the best 18 dressing every week too. i don't think the talent is appropriately evaluated. or that when a gitau pops up they are made a priority in terms of payroll and fast tracking.
     
  14. ElNaranja

    ElNaranja Member+

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Jul 16, 2017
    This conversation reminded me of an axiom our dearly departed (RIP...we all miss you) once told me, and it's so true: when they're Academy players, you only and always praise them and their achievements. Once they move past, they're critiqued like anyone else.

    Talent has never been the issue here. Lack of playing time and trust. Lack of a system to bring them along. Lack of talent evaluation. Those are the issues.
     
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  15. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    personally the thing i noticed is the other usual suspects aren't producing many pros either, eg, texans. richards made a brief pit stop there then on to FCD. i think they had some guy on orlando a couple years back. but it's not the level of the 90s or holdens/ shea. like the houston area used to have a good one or two every few years plus a steady stream of minor leaguers and journeymen. what happened? talent couldn't have just dried up.

    few things came to mind, 1, i was concerned that "everyone has an academy" would result in MLS organizations taking over development when they weren't really ready and hadn't earned that right. so the texans who were producing kids start losing some of them to HD -- because direct pipeline to MLS -- who doesn't know what the heck they are doing. that means both are screwed.

    2, texans merged with RISE a few years back. the old herd of english coaches are long since retired. the bakers aren't involved. to me it comes down to people. same for the dynamo.

    3, i then agree if you do produce players you have to accurately evaluate and integrate them or you risk them going to college and getting regular jobs, or heading off to mexico or europe. or staying here but never getting used or never panning out. i get some of you don't want a U23 team but most days no one under 21 dresses and usually maybe one player under 23 plays. and to me at a point that will start to break the players involved. the whole process seems set up to convey lack of confidence in the young player. ok, what do you expect back?

    4, tactics to me has become fashion and often dutch fashion, to me houston used to produce well because you grew up playing physical and organized soccer and were ready for rugged higher level stuff. what is our competitive advantage now? and HD just follows the herd on how to play.

    re the dynamo, first, god knows what clarkson's impact was. my harda$$ college coach ran off whole classes of recruits from our team. you might want reasonable feedback and discipline. all due respect to conservatives but kids don't want to play for teams where they get yelled at all day. there is a balance between getting something out of it, or behaving right, vs being an a$$hole.

    second, they haven't really seemed to react appropriately to their struggles. to me table struggles and the inability to produce great players are a hint you're going about stuff wrong. there has not been a course correction on tactics or the sort of player we seem to develop in abundance. (HD seems to produce fleets of 5' 7" slow but hardworking professionalized passing robots. ie future USL players. Gitau is exceptional.)
     
  16. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    re the training compensation post, if you have a player in your organization for years, run them out in preseason in the shirt and they produce, and you don't get a signed first team player out of it, or a transfer fee -- but instead, a training compensation sop -- that is utter failure. you are spinning so hard to make it positive your top just fell off the table.

    you had the dude in orange in a preseason game playing well. be honest. what do you think the next step was? do you really believe ma and pa gitau sent their kid to arizona for a week during school because their first priority was, what, college?
     
  17. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In the very first years of MLS clubs starting up their Academy programs and with Clarkson, our boys won the U-17 Dallas Cup right off the bat. So he immediately was able to get a team together from around our GHA and then get them to be winners at the most prestigious youth tournament in our entire Hemisphere. So that dog don't hunt on what Clarkson did or did not do as some dickhead head coach Juve. I've known that man since the HFA days in the late 90's.

    This.
    This is where the rubber meets the road years later from where our club started under Clarkson and the big task of finding the talent, to now where the Academy path in 2022 is have said talent, play him in preseason and then put the call on hold for months. I mean the kid is selected to be at the MLS Youth All Star game and he played for his club in preseason then overseas with the National Team camps. He might be a priority as this season has gone from bad to worse once again!
     
  18. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #444 juvechelsea, Aug 26, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2022
    re clarkson, gathering a team year 1 is a cherry picking exercise. i played on a select superteam with people from alief to conroe. the texans even had people from out of town who flew in. the initial phase of that, akin to college recruiting, is selling belief. you didn't train them from U5 to U16. they are HS juniors. they are halfway cooked. you just convinced them to join the cause. like i said, my college coach would get great recruiting classes, and it dawned on me years back, if everyone would have stayed, it would have been a conference champ, accumulated. but we'd have to refill half of every recruiting class.

    that and, personal experience, a clueless HS coach handed the right pile of talent can make it to the regional final and have actually made it worse. i thought we should have won state. we did in club....

    so, that by itself doesn't say he's any good, or beloved by his players who wouldn't think of going elsewhere. the pattern we saw was after the initial dixon/deric texans cherry pick we couldn't make anyone worth a crap on our own steam. and then a whole set of kids starting running around the academy to someplace else.

    maybe that's just how the endgame has been handled. the bridge problem.

    but i find it hard to believe someone the women think is a jerk wasn't a jerk to the boys, that that had no effect. or that the prospect kids thought we were doing a good job developing, over time. back then, they weren't even "pulling a gitau," they were avoiding us.

    but, i don't have any inside knowledge. i am just reading into it why a team that the academy is decent initially, couple dibs players, off a team we didn't train up, then falls off, what that screams to me. doesn't scream he could make his own U10s. what always jumped out to me was in that middle period before he got fired, the texans were ahead of them in the development league standings. once the "pipeline" sales pitch didn't play out, and they had to identify and make their own, not so good.

    to be fair, i am sure our pattern of signing is a factor. our club, or the texans, people were going pro, D1, etc. the next class up doesn't have to imagine what the club can deliver.

    but to me if a team with even a theoretical pipeline to MLS that can't make first team ready subs from U10 seeds is messing up someplace. impression i get is we don't seem to be concerned enough with athletes, or, if this is going a skill direction, to take it far enough in a barca direction where it matters at senior level. but then i am still trying to figure out what we are chasing with the first team, either.
     
  19. DonJuego

    DonJuego Member+

    Aug 19, 2005
    Austin, TX
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Another, what I at first blush consider positive, bit of news:

    Soccer America reports today the USMYNT U-15 talent identification camp invitees announced. Three Dynamo kiddoes in the 20 Central region invitees. In our region that is second only to Orlando who has four.

    These kids are all out in California together until next Tuesday.

    Dynamo academy players: Gianmarco Alvarez (gk), Micah Harris (d), Jorge Estrada Jr.(m).

    Congrats kids! Go Orange! Don't hold anything down -- or back!

    Interesting note: The report says no one from Philly Union is on the list for the East region because the Union kids are currently touring Europe where they just put a 0-6 beat down on Bayern Munich kids. Philly academy is nuts successful. Why are we not copying them exactly!

    If you think I am reading too much into this one report -- that would be correct if I was. I consider these things to be the best leading indicator of academy performance available, but that only consistent observations over years is meaningful. For instance: while the Dynamo claimed academy improvement over the last 8 years the consistent absence of dynamo academy players in USYNT camps told us otherwise. Now, we are starting to see real indications that it COULD be actually happening. Time will tell.
     
  20. ElNaranja

    ElNaranja Member+

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Jul 16, 2017
    It is a good sign. The score in the Union game doesn't hold much water for me, especially at that age group where scores can be all over the place because of developmental issues (and I don't mean skill wise). But absolutely, being recognized by your national team is a good thing. But it is merely one data point amongst many where ultimately 1st team success is the final one and for that we are grade a F.

    So far.
     
  21. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #447 CeltTexan, Sep 2, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2022
    I was able to meet our Academy Director Paul Holocher at one of my school's Varsity game two years back and he specifically mentioned that the our youth players around the U-15 and U-12 teams would be something to make our club shine, that they had some real potential. Years on and here we witness that being true. Good on him and our boys!

    If my high school boys travel just across Houston, up North to Klien and hang 6 goals on that quality program, that's always something.
    So for Philly, their staff and players to travel across the Pond and go lock horns with a club like Bayern Munich and put 6 past their goalie, on their patch, sheet, that is not a luck game but a terrific feather in the cap for Philly's Academy.
     
  22. quiznatodd_bidness

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Apr 14, 2020
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  23. quiznatodd_bidness

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Apr 14, 2020
     
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  24. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    brutal.

    the fanboys like hearing about YNT callups, and they give this team some press clipping to tout -- but the players involved have been in ODP/regional/YNT for years, they want to see players crossing the bridge and getting first team integrated. what is my payoff.

    we had some flowering this year and for the most part stomped it out with the hoe like weeds. we'd rather play HH off the bench in the garbage time of the season. people made fun of my "go young" theory, but we finished sh*tty anyway, and in the process didn't send any positive message that we're getting younger or rewarding HD2/academy success. even when they talk about the future onstad is talking HH etc. and not brooklyn raines. the impression i am getting is nothing much changed. we will see this winter, but if you have a choice where to start your career, this franchise makes kinnear look like a daring youth movement coach by comparison.

    my guess would be either "diego luna" (turn pro, straight-to-USL) or commonwealth-to-UK-academy, as their transfermarkt says they are kenyan.
     

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