Dying Christopher Hitchens, still no need for God, or prayer

Discussion in 'Spirituality & Religion' started by minerva, Sep 20, 2010.

  1. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    all religion or most religion or some specific religion?

    i need to justify asking for the reason you hold a particular view?
     
  2. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

    Sep 4, 2010
    LA, California
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    There are some very peaceful religions that I can respect, that are totally against war. So I think all. I'm thinking mostly the Judeo-Christian ones, and Islam.

    And can I ask you ask the question conversely?
     
  3. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i know this isn't a perfect analogy, but if i see you walking across the street and i see a car coming and call out to you, i'm trying to prevent something bad happening to you. if you owe me $10, that's one thing, but if you owe me $1000, i might be accused of only trying to protect my pocketbook.

    i have very little to gain personally if Christopher Hitchens decides that God loves him and he wants to be part of God's family. i guess i would get to talk to Hitchens in heaven, and that would be a rare treat, but any attitude i hold about him -- the fact that he is obdurately anti-God, for example -- is tempered with the awareness i have that he is likely to suffer more outside "the heavenly gates" (if you believe in that sort of thing) than inside them.

    it's no feather in my cap if Christopher Hitchens changes his mind. on the other hand, if there is a God and all that is said about him (the positive stuff) is true, Hitchens' conversion would tend to make God look good, but i can't see how it would serve any personal aim i have, except aims i have that are aligned with God's aims, and in those cases, i've subjugated mine to his.
     
  4. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    sure.

    but maybe you would answer my question first instead of avoiding it?
     
  5. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

    Sep 4, 2010
    LA, California
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Terrible analogy I think. So converting someone to your religion is a perfect way to prevent something bad happening? Oh so being atheist is a bad thing like getting hit by a car? That's an awful analogy, and one you should never use again.

    Wow, that's vindictive. And as far as I'm concerned, you can't prove any sort of it. "God's family?" Just like those people who say i should give up my "life of sin" and should "repent". Right. I've heard that a thousand times before. And on a serious note, he knows there is nothing after so he's trying to make the most of his life before he's worm food. Glad to see the man likes his booze.

    Then keep those aims to yourself. Atheists can be good people.
     
  6. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

    Sep 4, 2010
    LA, California
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    I've answered it.

    I love it how when I answer a question that I've been asked by a religious person... I get accused of avoiding it.

    That's just weak.
     
  7. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    nah! you said that there would be less war and conflict. that's an opinion unsupported by fact. if you can't present any facts, just say so. it's OK to have completely unsupported opinions. you're in good company.
     
  8. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

    Sep 4, 2010
    LA, California
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Oh boy, this reeks of a bit of inconsistency. As if your opinions are supported by facts. It's fact that religion does fuel conflict particularly in the middle east. Also Bush said he was on a mission from god when launching the war in Iraq. And my opinions are not unsupported. I'm atheist and I believe in facts. Something that is unknown to you. :mad:
     
  9. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Bible is Fact! why? Because the Bible said so!.

    So does the Koran, so I guess both of the books are facts :rolleyes:

    BTW, Stilton , is cool you all want to pray for Christopher if you want. But to increase the odds, also pray to Zeus, Arom-Ra and others, It is better to hedge your bets IMO!
     
  10. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    It's not self serving. Based on their beliefs, the people who are praying for him are doing him a kindness. And if you don't believe as they do, you can politely acknowledge the kindness, or at worst ignore it.

    And btw I don't think anybody is praying for him to go to hell. That is Hitchens grandstanding when he says that. They think as an atheist he's going to hell already, so why would they pray for that?
     
  11. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

    Sep 4, 2010
    LA, California
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Um many are praying in the hope that he changes to their side... that's self serving in my view.

    At worst ignore it? Or perhaps criticize it?
     
  12. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    They are not praying for him to switch sides. They are praying for his soul to be delivered from eternal torment and into eternal bliss. I don't think you understand the premises behind the traditional Christian doctrine.

    Criticize their beliefs, if it makes you feel good. But it doesn't change the fact that when they take the time to pray for him, based on their belief, it is an act of kindness.
     
  13. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

    Sep 4, 2010
    LA, California
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Um, not from what I saw in the article. And for one, I've studied the bible before, and I come from a Catholic family... so I think I do understand behind it. It's a baseless doctrine.

    It's not an act of kindness. Sometimes it's done out of scorn and personal gain. Look, I'm not claiming all are like that. But no doubt some do pray for others out of other reasons other than kindness. Like when they say they will pray for me and tell me that I should living a "life of sin"... I don't view those as acts of kindness.
     
  14. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I get how you view it. I just don't think you understand how they view it.

    Look, I don't believe in hell. I think if we as beings survive past the death of our physical body -and I think it's likely- it's not based on how we live. It's not because of somebody judging how we behaved, and it's not based on what we believe. Either we all survive because it is our nature as human beings to exist beyond our physical body, or else we don't because it is not. That is what I believe.

    But I've heard of people praying for me. Friends, loved ones, family. I know my grandma -RIP- prayed for me every day.

    When I hear that somebody is praying for me to go to heaven and to be saved from hell, I am thankful to that person, the prayer uplifts me, because I realize that based on their own belief, they are thinking of me and doing me a kindness.
     
  15. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

    Sep 4, 2010
    LA, California
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    But I do understand the motives, and often they are not what you think they are.

    Look I understand that. And I am not trying to discredit those. But there are people who use prayer as for selfish reasons.

    There was a study a few years ago that actually concluded that prayer was not effective, and in fact could be harmful..

    http://www.secularism.org.uk/prayernoteffectiveandcouldevenbe.html

    It was targeted for patients after heart surgery...

    Prayer also is of declining importance amongst younger people found in that study.
     
  16. minerva

    minerva Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    you cannot deny that the biggest, most out-spoken atheist of modern times suddenly finding religon on his death bed would not just be a benefit to his own soul (so they believe), but would also be a tremendous coup for christianity. so while not knowing their motives entirely, it is tough not to be a bit cynical about it.
     
  17. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    Bah, the same thing happened here when a high-profile atheist found God near the end of his life. It didn't discredit anything. Are you saying that only believers are allowed to have a change of heart?
     
  18. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

    Nov 16, 2003
    no need for God, or prayer

    I'm not surprised, as many people find religion in jail. One judge I know used to frequently state, "I know where to find Jesus. He's in the county jail, because so many defendants tell me they found him there!" :D
    Weren't the godless Nazis & the Communists responsible for more 20th century deaths than any religion or faith?
     
  19. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: no need for God, or prayer

    I will take the communist but not the 3rd Reich!

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsNVxW2ufPw"]YouTube - Christoper Hitchens view on Catholic Hilter[/ame]
     
  20. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: no need for God, or prayer

    Nor the Irish.
     
  21. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

    Sep 4, 2010
    LA, California
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Re: no need for God, or prayer

    Hitler certainly said he was a Christian... but that's a different explosive topic.
     
  22. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    I find it funny that Christians would view that as a major coup. Whatever keeps the circle-jerk going, I guess. :rolleyes:

    But it's like thinking what Diego Maradona does in his last days outweighs what he did in his twenties.
     
  23. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

    Nov 16, 2003
  24. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Re: no need for God, or prayer

    I watched the Berlinski Hitchens debate that the above clip is taken from:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-mS5nr-dU8"]YouTube - Debate: Does Atheism Poison Everything? Christopher Hitchens vs David Berlinski pt.1[/ame]

    Berlinski argues from ignorance and the god of the gaps as well as making the argument from morality. The funny thing though is that he admits that nothing compels him to be moral (after all he doesn't personally believe in God) but he thinks it's a key argument. Basically it was a debate between an intellectual snob who says "I don't believe in God but you had better, or else your world will go to hell" and an intellectual snob (and I mean that as a compliment to Hitchens) who says think for yourself.
     
  25. CyphaPSU

    CyphaPSU Member+

    Mar 16, 2003
    Not Far
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've asked others on this board the same question before, but could you please respond and define the term "fact" in your own words? I am quite interested. Thank you, sir.
     

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