News: Dutch players at home and abroad worthy to be tracked in connection with the Dutch NT - Part 4

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Sep 2, 2012.

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  1. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Well now you mention that, the road ahead is also not ideal IMO. At the one hand we need to fire up some cylinders to close the gap. In this context I have mentioned this solution among others. On the other hand it is a thing that is forced upon us to a certain degree. If you gonne get into a situation where Spain and maybe soon other country's can out pass you generation after generation, despite whatever great individual class one might have, you need to answer. I also still feel from the WC final that football can become a sport of getting the other players off the field. I saw this weekend van Bommel trying it with van Ginkel and Immers is also a player that shows signs of this behavior. I don't like the situation where football becomes an "I got you" sport. So my resistance against it comes from the fear of creating more of a stop and go sport with a lot of whistling, yellow cards, red cards and playacting. What would take this fear away is video referee's and red cards for play acting. I would love to finally see a player send off for scr*wing an opponent. Great joy when I saw Torres in the Chelsea-United match send off. He also flopped at the cost of Anita, creating a penalty.

    Overall a system where referees are tight, will reward the more skillful players.

    I agree.

    ?

    I played many winters indoor football when the field was too bad to train on (now all clubs have artificial pitches) or when it was too cold. Then in the weekend we had a game outside. Not at E level, but at C and B level I remember playing there. Why would indoor football not be oke for lower age groups? And those arena's would be awesome for kids to practice. I know I would use it all the time if I had one back in the days. You can also set up a highest score system and kids from the neighborhood trying to beat the records. Would be a lot of fun.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Indoor football is a nice and indeed beneficial substitute for the time in the year when field football isn't available. But that is indeed not something new, the Vanenburg and Van Basten generation already did this.

    What I meant is that something fundamental is failing and lacking at the very basis, at the period between 4 and 12 years old. Yes, I fully agree that Dortmund their robo-systems can help but that is something for a later age.
    I don't argue against your suggestions, I argue in favor of an analysis of the very basics. Spain for example puts a lot of emphasis on physical (strength, coordination etcetera) development, starting at the age of 3-4 even. Not just because it helps sports but also because it helps to combat obese and other 'welfare disaeses' [welvaartziekten]. Some scientists even argue that the physical conditions for development are determined before the birth of a person.
    I'm afraid though that the liberal society of Holland, which used to be a strength in football, cannot cope with these developments.

    In sum: Dortmund their robo-system is good for improving the final 0.1% but the most important phase takes place between 0 and 12 years old. In that respect, the budget cuts of the last few decades on gymnastics - like the abandoning of swimming at school level - is very bad. It is underrated how important it is to practice multiple sports at an early age before making a specialization, it helps in solving problems and gain a skill advantage in the specialization phase, that is scientifically proven.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    You know, you mentioned Isco and I agree but you can also look at the distant past.

    For example, has any current striker the technique of Kluivert? I don't think so. His superb technique was even visible at PSV when he played in shabby condition but he had really glue on his boots.
    It is not only that others have moved on but also that Holland had degenerated.

     
  4. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    IMO, this is the hardest position in the world to train for. I think some players are just born strikers with the necessary mindset and skills. If you look across all NTs, really good strikers are few and far between. I'm not sure why this is the case but it just is.
     
  5. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I agree with everything except the bold. I think it could be huge. Could easily increase overall football quality with 25%. I think it is that big. I have semi walked with some football ideas myself, this one also. If you enroll let's say 150 or 200 arena's over the country and build separate competition setup with it, with overall leader boards just like in gaming, you get a whole generation of far better skilled passing players. If you tweak that system so that kids are forced to look 360 all the time and build in some extra difficulty in it, like a putting objects in the way of the ball so it jumps up before the first touch of a player and make him do it 1 hour a day, you can expect vast improvements. I remember when I played tennis, I loved going to the wall before and after training and work some things out for myself. Always trying to brake my PM of going on long streaks without making any error. Would have loved it for football. Besides you can build in coordination training in this Arena. You can make feet touch screen panels in the inner circle that send very quick signals the player has to follow with his feet. Error? Then no ball ... or 3 balls. Whatever number you want to use. You can turn it into a reward system easily and kids will love it. The implications and options of this arena can not be overstated enough.

    Absolutely. I am a fan of Clasie, but recently saw a video of all touches of Edgar Davids in the game against Argentina and realized again, how good our past players were. Kluivert is the reason why I hate a player like Huntelaar. I can not accept these box noobs with those kind of players as reference. That having said, people like me underestimate the value of flat track bully's. Going easily past the weak country's is a great quality to have in European qualification towards both WC and Euro.

    One more thing. The cross of Ola John. Don't know many Dutch wingers that could come close to him. I have now seen almost all of Ola's games for Benfica this year, but it's often a thing of beauty. He also takes their corners.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Also for DRB300

    In 1998 we had left-backs who could pass. Seriously!


    Numan gives an assist in first half, replacement Bogarde a pre-assist in second half.

    I hope you understand my point.

    Also agree about Edgar Davids (IMO Cocu was overall even greater as Davids although Davids had higher peak).
     
  7. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    @DRB & Puck - I'm not going to complicate this post by quoting a lot of what has been said in the past 10 or so posts. Here is my perspective on things. A lot of years ago when I was in graduate school pursuing my PhD in chemistry I sat in on James Counsilman's course in biomechanics and kinesiology. Counsilman was one of the best swimming coaches in history and many US Olympic gold medal winning swimmers came from his program at Indiana University. He took a scientific approach to breaking down all of the particular muscle groups and actions and then tailored the program to improve those. As a young graduate student, I was teaching a first year chemistry lab and had three of the swimmers in my lab. I engaged them in a discussion of training methods and was surprised to hear that they spent the first 20 minutes using a kick board and just going back and forth using only their kick as propulsion (breaststrokers would use their kick and butterfliers theirs). Councilman felt from observing swimers that their kick was often underdeveloped and they were not swimming optimally as a result. A good part of the course was focused on the biomechanics of sports with particular emphasis on swimming and track. I found these lectures quite stimulating and I started looking at sports of all kinds with a different eye from that point on.

    From a football perspective the two biggest things a player needs to become excellent are quickness (and associated reflex action) and field awareness. Quickness is mainly genetic and while it can be improved on, if you don't have some high baseline of quickness you aren't going to be helped by exercises (this is primarily why Messi is so great). Field awareness on the other hand can be improved and I like some DRB's ideas about drills that can be used to improve this area of the game. Now some players acquire this naturally (Clasie) but unlike quickness the chances for improvement here are quite good. The idea of introducing this to young players is especially appealing since one can create 'games' that keep their interest while at the same time improving their awareness.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Good post but I think your part about reflex action is not entirely true. I'll give a clear cut and extreme example: it is shown that air pollution has an effect on the chance to be born with autism - areas with high air pollution have a higher share of kids with autism at birth; in these studies they even controlled for intervening variables (i.e. is air pollution the cause or do genetically inferior parents live by definition in polluted areas?). It is known that autists lack those reflex actions in general (extreme opposite examples exist too).
    So, prenatal circumstances do have an effect on reflex action I think.
     
  9. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Do you have a peer reviewed scientific reference for this claim? I think this is just bogus. We know that there isn't a really good definition for autism and there is a whole spectrum of indications which cumulatively lead to different severities. I put this one in the same category as vaccines causing autism.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What do you mean with this?
     
  11. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    My daughter teaches at a school for children with various disabilities and autism among the conditions that some of her students have. They demonstrate a whole variety of different abilities and it's not just a simple case of saying that someone is autistic or they are not. If what you said was really true that we should see enormous numbers of autistic children in China and India where there is large amounts of air pollution. Now maybe there are lots, we just don't know. One of the things we do know is that the definition of autism has expanded in the last 40 years and more children are being labeled as autistic as a result.

    I don't think we are going to get anywhere in relation to the original topic of this thread so we probably should just focus on football. My only point was to try to see what factors are genetic in nature (speed, quickness, etc.) where only marginal improvements can be made and those that are acquired where larger improvements can be made.
     
  12. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Looks like Jeffery Bruma is no longer in favor at Hamburg. He's been sitting on the bench in recent matches only coming on late.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Apparently you are a scientist yourself so it should not be hard to find peer reviewed research. It is easy to find and was also mentioned in newspapers.

    More likely is that you don't believe the outcomes anyway and I understand it. It has huge societal relevance and is a politically sensitive topic. Both some proponents and opponents have huge financial interests in this issue.
    The same is true with the vaccines thing. While that has been debunked as you said (there is no slightest proof at all), it should be noted that the researchers are not seldom paid by the farma companies themselves. Who of course have a financial interest again.

    But this is offtopic indeed. Anyhow, reflex action is also influenced by outside factors.
     
  14. BaritoPutra

    BaritoPutra Member

    Jan 26, 2007
    Where is Sneijder heading next? Hoping that he leaves Inter during January transfer window. PSG have been mentioned as his possible destination, as have Man Utd. I really like the idea of Sneijder at M.U playing behind Rooney and RVP. The two have some chemistry between them, having already played in the Dutch N.T. And, the midfield of M.U really sucks. It surely could use some upgrades, can't stand the old farts Giggy and Scholes.
     
  15. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think Sneijder is a risky transfer target. He's now 28 years old with a recent history of troubling injuries. Internazionale are going to want a lot of money for him and I personally don't think it's worth the investment (and I really like him as a player). He will really get punished physically if he moves to England.
     
  16. TFC Ajax

    TFC Ajax Member+

    Mar 20, 2011
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    with the amount that Inter actually uses him, even when he is fit, and with his wage demands, they should take anything over 15M. I think Man u could use him in central midfield. I also think that Sir Alex could get the most out of him and make him more disciplined in how he acts off the pitch.
     
  17. Mr.S

    Mr.S Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    MU dont want him. They have a very good No.10 in Kagwa who is younger & fitter. They have 2 Sure Shot Starters as ST in Rooney & RVP. Sometimes they are playing a diamond formation and playing Welbeck or Hernandez in addition to this.

    The only place MU has space is the DM/CM slot, someone better than Cleverly, Carrick or Fletcher. A guy like Strootman will do good there. And MU have confirmed that they are no longer interested in him.

    I think Sneijder has to CONSIDERABLY lower his wages to stay at Inter or even go to Milan or he will be sold off to Anzi, PSG type club
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Do you mean by the way that Messi makes the difference in his physical quickness and reflex action? His speed of thinking so to speak?
     
  19. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Exactly, he's not the fastest player in the world in terms of linear speed from point A to point B (I think Afellay might be faster in that regard) but he can see spaces that few other players can and then react to those spaces. A player like this comes along once in a generation.
     
  20. TFC Ajax

    TFC Ajax Member+

    Mar 20, 2011
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Messi might not be the fastest runner, but his acceleration is quite good, and his agility at full speed is nearly unmatched.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What few players also have is strength while running. He is very strong, that is often forgotten by most. Both in standstill position and while running. It is partially balance (which also related to reflex action) but also his muscle power.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    You essentially said that players are born with it right? That it cannot be trained I think. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

    What about that insane agility. Is that also a born attribute or did that require advanced training?
     
  23. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Yes, somewhere over 90% is genetic in nature (we cannot all be as fast as Usain Bolt) and it's the ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch muscle fibers. This ratio can determine whether one is better suited to sports that require quickness versus those that require endurance. One can marginally improve performance through training to a certain limit but there is a boundary. When I was a lot younger and used to run for fitness I was able to get my 800 meter time down to about 2 minutes 20 seconds but no lower, that was my boundary and of even if I had the best coach in the world it's unlikely that I could get this lower. There are other football skills that can be greatly improved through practice such as dribbling, passing, and ball control. Some of this is related to the physical tools that are inherited but not all. Look at a player like Van der Vaart who we would all agree is not particularly quick or fast but is really good with the ball (Cruijff is an example of a player who combined both the physical skills and ball skills).

    What we have also discussed is the mental aspect of the game which is how fast do players process information. There is great room for improvement in this through training and I think some of what DRB has written about in terms of training exercises can really improve this aspect of the game. This is what a team like Barcelona excel at. If we exclude their two most physically gifted players: Messi and Iniesta; the rest are largely ordinary in terms of speed and quickness. However, they can process game information really fast and when you look at their passing it's amazing. A lot of what they do is within very close spaces where there is a small margin for error (opponents intercepting the pass). they very rarely make the wrong pass.

    Now contrast what I said just above with how Ajax play which is evolving to this same model (I pick them as a fan and observer of Eredivisie football who sees them as the closest team to this model). Ajax don't have the quality of player (obviously) but what's more they don't have players at this point in time who can process information quickly enough. I think that this has to be instilled in players during their academy development since there is a lot of repetition needed to reach this point.

    It's been said that one needs to have 10,000 hours of practice to excel at something (playing a violin or other instrument in a symphony orchestra) and I think this translates to football as well. You can do the math and see how much time should be spent to get to the elite level of play.
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    In the past Holland has produced many excellent players. Why is that? Unless I have misunderstood him wrong but DRB300 (and I) think it is related to environmental factors - which are now crumbling.

    By the way, the running example is a good one. Kenyans and Ethiopians are strong in running because of genetics but also because of the environment. In short: the Western nations are basically too lazy while the Africans developed an efficient running style due to environmental factors - which also became imprinted in the genes.
     

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