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Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Mar 14, 2015.
Labyad is garbage
We selected worse players than him recently
Ziyech was called up by Blind, but then he got an injury. His interview was really a new level of stupidity. Not knowing that his decision would be final and then still with that new knowledge that he should have had in the first place not reconsidering. I think it is great to let a talent make the own decision. Phases out people who are not truly committed. Yes there are moments I want a more active policy, but no we should not. It creates a culture where maybe somebody might get an earlier call than the other. Dishonesty. It creates a cheap environment. We must only work with people who really want to be there.
But some people tend to exagerate about the bi national players. You can love two countries or even more as long as you belong to them. Ziyech chose for Morocco, it doesn't mean that he wouldn't have been professionnal/playing with his heart under the oranje shirt. He feels moroccan for certain reasons and dutch for other ones.
When you can chose between many nationalities, you just chose the one that offers you the best possibilites. Ziyech wouldn' have chosen for Morocco as early a couple of years ago. He saw that the dutch federation isn't doing much to get him, that Holland is going through dark years, and what's the plan to change this actually ? Nothing.
The phrase used all the time is head and heart. The Dutch NT is the calculated choice, The Moroccan or other NT is what they love. I am less focused on loving countries (I actually prefer skeptical critical citizens, that do count their blessings and want to improve what is), more thinking about the NT as an institution and having an history to respect and be proud of. I am collecting this series:
It's a 15 part series discussing every game from the NT and telling all kinds of stories. I don't like to buy them all at ones, but taking it more slow. I don't like players treating the NT as if it is just a good career choice. It is much more.
Look and this is what I do not like. He did not deserve it a few years ago. I have looked up the stats and he was a turn over black hole giving the ball away all the time. Yes he was creative, but a lot of people should have cleaned up his mess. Besides the NT became third without him. I am not sure we would have done better with him, maybe due to his turnover danger even worse. 2014 was all about being compact, disciplined and defensive. Even Sneijder was a worker. Blind did invite him and he got injured. He got his invitation, some bad luck spoiled that, he choose for the NT by playing for U21 and he changed his mind. That U21 acceptation carries more weight these days as FIFA has made it a bit harder to change after that. This has been all him.
Assaidi also had this crazy impatient stance. Pot did not call him up, so Morocco. No, maybe he should have looked at why. Pick up the feedback and look to improve. If we let this hyper way of thinking creep in, we corrupt the selection process. Not only that, more importantly the mental hardening that comes from pushing for selection. Being rejected is also a good thing. Yes the weaklings will sulk and scream unfair. The good material will double their efforts and just push harder. That is very important to keep intact.
When did that become a thing? Get him? That is exactly the mentality I do not want to let creep in. You select yourself. You make yourself a talking point and force selection. You make them select you. That attitude is the lifeblood of top athletes and top sport. It is not quantifiable but is so important.
Another great way to phase out the committed. No, life is not always roses and sugar and we can see the properly motivated by looking who wants to be there despite going through a bad period. No indeed, if this is a point for him, then I am again glad he choose for Morocco. This period in that sense has an upside.
That's where you're wrong in my opinion. At least for Ziyech's case. He isn't morrocan culturally. Doesn't even speak the language at all. He didn't look that happy during the interviews for Morocco, always a bit doubftul. You could almost feel some disappointement in his tone.
The caculated choice nowadays is actually to play for Morocco. He knew that Blind would call him sooner or later but he analyzed the situation of the NT and chosed for Morocco with his head. He heard that Mastour has chosen for Morocco as well and wanted to jump on the bandwagon.
Football is a sport where we're talking about money. People should stop to be blind and think that the players who chose for other national teams are cowards. Otherwise what to say about Sneijder, Van Persie and all the other old dutch players who prefer to play for turkish clubs rather than for dutch ones just in order to get more money and better conditions ? Are they also cowards for not helping dutch football ? You can make the analogy.
Playing for Morocco doesn't offer more money than playing for Holland but in the current situation it's more interesting, even for the clubs I guess. Dutch players have a bad label now. It's a dark time. Even Depay who made the buzz struggles to find his place and it will be harder and harder for the dutch young players to make big transfers the next years. Does Ziyech want to be called "the next Afellay" by the english newspapers because he is also a dutch/moroccan attacking midfielder ? It's not the most flattering nickname when you know that Afellay is sitting on the bench at Stoke. At least with chosing for Morocco people will forget about its dutch side. They'll just say he is a moroccan player.
You can't say that we should chose for Holland no matter what the situation is. Would you be angry at your workers if they leave for another company that offers better conditions ? You have to offer better things .Football is a work, players have a carreer and a CV, they make the best choices they can do for their life and family. It's calculated yeah, but you're wrong if you think he chose Morocco for the love, I guess it's the contrary in this case, he calculated, he would never have chosen as quick 5/10 years years ago when Holland was shining.
It is a direct quote from an El Ghazi and many players in the past. So there is not right or wrong there, just saying what they say themselves. Ziyech said the same:
See, so even this case we see the same. It has become this standard phrase and I don't like it. So I am happy he choose for Morocco.
Cowards? Who calls them cowards?
Money, yes (also thanks to the immoral tax system), conditions only partly. Look for axample at average attandance in Turkey:
Once you play out of Istanboel, it sucks. There is also a lot of bribery going on, poverty, bad infrastructure, lack of freedom of speech and a language that you can neither speak or understand. A player is worshiped more there and an Istanboel is a nice city. It's more of a mixed bag.
I don't think the analogy is correct and again, cowards is not the word in this discussion. Club football and country football are two different things.
Which you identified earlier on as a prime parameter in decision making
That is a claim. What club has suggested such a thing? What player has suggested this?
In the era of Scout7 programs and what not, individual assessment trumps any reputation of nationality and what not. Also even if that parameter would go a long way and would have a dominant weighing in taking or not taking players, Dutch players come out better than many other nationalities in the world. Your tag "bad label" suggests a black and white spectrum, while it consists out of multiple degrees. Yes it is lower than in the past and Spanish, German and some other NT's, but your stamp of "bad label" is running away with it too much. It is not realistic either. It is going overboard to the other side. We have people at the one hand still living in lalaland of the seventeenths, however to act like having a Dutch background is now working against you is also going overboard. Such things are claims and claims need to be backed up. I can imagine there being data on things like this. Like NT reputation for companies to know who to spend on? Scout opinions (want to see multiple and from reputable ones) would also help to back your claim up. I think it is wrong, but I am open minded and only proper evidence will convince me.
On a side note, I am not sure having any background holds players back. Top football is close to a meritocracy. Not fully, but more than in the past and more than almost any other dimension in the world. How was Dwight Yorke prevented from playing for United coming from Trinidad and Tobago? He was not, because he could play football. Selection based on background and reputation of nationality is an excuse of countries that generally do not do that well and so they tell themselves lies. We have no top players or we don't have a top NT as we have this or that background. Excuses to not face reality. It is not fun to admit to yourself that it is just not good enough. That is why I keep on saying that Dutch players are not good enough currently. Improvement starts with honesty.
By the way, I do think having coaches in the field that know you helps. Like Koeman getting van Dijk and Clasie. Van Gaal getting a Memphis and Blind. However they still have to perform though. At the end there must be quality.
Long before he was even connected to United I said on this forum that he looked like an amateur at times. The way he controls the ball. He is currently failing because he is not good enough. In terms of control, composure and what not, he is bad. That is the problem.
I don't know. We should ask him. You like Afellay, otherwise you would not have defended him often.
And Moroccan players have accomplished what in the world? How many Ballon d'Ors have they won? How many CL titles? How many high notations in WC's? How many fans of European top clubs get a fuzzy feeling from remembering the time a Moroccan player won them titles? Milan fans? Barca fans? United fans? Bayern fans? Even fans from a club like Arsenal do no shut up about Bergkamp and he has been long gone.
No, Dutch Moroccan players have not succeeded somewhere spectacular, the French Moroccans do maybe better, but the Moroccan Moroccan players have no reputation at all. Afellay at least got to play for a club like Barca, working together with a Messi and gave that all important assist in the semi final (?) of the CL. Besides, let's not forget that Afellay got injured. His peek has been robbed from him. Yeah, riding the bench at Stoke is not good. Pieters is a regular there though
I am saying that this choosing is a good way to phase out the ones that belong there and the ones that don't. I think that players that have been brought up in the Dutch system (coaching, infrastructure, competition setup, being helped by Dutch volunteers, experiencing the adventures of the Dutch NT when at an end tournament with streets colored all Orange, being part of a system that would have been there in case life would have dealt the person the worse cards in life etc) would be more prudent to feel honored playing for the Dutch NT, but if we get these stories of head is for Oranje, heart for x,y or z NT, then please let them be. No special treatment to lure them in. It corrupts the selection process for me. It would be another step, maybe multiple steps down and we need to go up again. One can not mess with the top sport mental mindset. If you build in escapes like "oke if you do not select me now, I go for that NT" then that attacks the proper mental mindset to react with determination towards a feeling of rejection. Rejection reveals sulkers or fighters. We need the last ones for the NT. This whole impatient mindset that would be forced on us is plain wrong.
Well his words are that he choose with his heart and who are we to question his own words? We are no mind readers. His words are his words and based on that he did it out of love for the NT/Morocco. So I wish him well.
As you say it's a standard phrase now but it doesn't mean much for Ziyech to me. I would believe it for Amrabat cause he is a bit a street guy and speaks arabic, belongs to the mentality "I don't wanna sing the dutch anthem" but Ziyech isn't that type. He doesn't speak arabic at all and look integrated to me. He just said it to please moroccan fans I think.
Some people did. For both sides actually. When Chadli chose for Belgium moroccans were also calling him coward, and when Fekir chosed for France the right wings nationalistic websites talked about it in order to discuss the born french immigrants who chose for other countries.
Yes I like him, but he has a bad label now. The flop one. And the french north african players can identify to Zidane or Benzema, the dutch moroccans have no one to identify to, except Afellay.
They haven't accomplished anything but they're having a good generation. I don't think that the best dutch eleven would beat the moroccan one now. For sure Morocco has a better squad than Iceland and Czech Republic. If they qualify for 2018, then it would give a good reputation to players, look at Algeria last world cup, almost beat Germany and then players like Brahimi signed to Porto, Ghoulam to Napoli, Bentaleb earned a starting spot with Tottenham...The NT you play for and the performances you have there can definitly have an impact on your club career and I don't see any advantage to play for Holland rather than for Morocco now. The NT is having terrible results and the dutch players don't play in better clubs than the moroccan ones in europe. It's the main reason why Ziyech chosed for Morocco I think. He just thought he had nothing to lose.
It's always going to be a calculated choice. Players won't get rich playing for an NT; they will get recognition and self-satisfaction of playing in the highest level tournaments. An NT is limited to 24 players plus some alternates in case of injury or loss of form on the part of others. There is also the replacement issue when players retire. Even small countries such as Portugal and The Netherlands will always have a surplus of good players who can be considered for the NT. I agree with DRB300 that requires a certain mentality to play for an NT and succeed.
I don't want to continually bring up the US NT and all of our German players but when you look at all these selections they have much less connection with the US than do the Dutch-Moroccans.
In the hypothetical case some rule had made him play for the Netherlands or in this case Morocco, like him having no choice, then I can understand your suspicion. Yes I can understand in such a case that somebody all while not believing his own words, could play up to the fans and get a good feeling going. However Ziyech was selected by Blind (got injured, but he was selected), was selected for U21, but simply changed his mind. He was set for a career for the Dutch NT as a 10, but he changed his mind and choose for Morocco, according to himself with his heart. Those are his words and he was free to say whatever he wanted, as he was not bound by any NT before making this choice.
I think the choice of words is weird. I do not see any connection. Even if bravery or cowardice is part of the equation, then how is choosing for Belgium (who are currently nr 1) being a coward? It is bloody hard to get in the starting 11. It is actually quite ambitious. Same for Fekir. France is better, certainly the next years, than any African country. Quite ambitious again. However I think ambition is a better word than bravery or cowardice.
They can identify with Cruyff. With van Basten. With Bergkamp. With Rensenbrink. With Gullit, with anybody they like. I recently heard that Ould-Chikh identified with Robben. Excellent. Do all blond haired people have to identify with blond haired players and gingers with gingers and black haired with black haired? Yeah, alright it goes much deeper with Dutch Moroccans, but to say they can not identify with people that were born in the same cities or villages as they do, same schools, friends, same language, same street parties to cheer Oranje etc. is just wrong IMO. Ould-Chick with his quote is prove of that. Maybe past generations needed that, but we are now entering what? The fourth generation? It becomes time.
The reason football is popular, or even most popular in the world, is because of the chance that the so called strong teams (on paper) can lose from the weak teams (on paper). They calculated that and there was far more insecurity concerning football than a bunch of other sports. A win or a loss is just 1 data point and yes that can happen. In our current form we can even win from Germany. Will not happen, but it can happen. So basing opinions on that does not tell me so much.
Equating the Dutch NT to their last results to say things over a whole period in the future is not right either to me. What would be a more accurate thing to do is taking 1 cut off for the Blind era. Blind has not been able to let us play compact. That is an essential thing to do for a coach. Neither do we defend as a team. That is another factor a coach must do and implement. The guy is incompetent. That is separate from player quality. Netherlands has still more player quality than Iceland, however they were better organised. 2014 WC actually is also prove of this. Many of the same players, but compact team organisation. Coaches matter. So a Blind cut off for future projections in time is a good one. When he is kicked out and we get a good coach, we can already improve quite a bit. Not reach top level, not a threat to any top team, but we could for example win from Sweden and aim for second place qualification for the WC. After that maybe even win in the play off, if it is not Portugal.
However coming back to Moroccan Moroccan players, that current generation is maybe better due to the influx of players being raised and nurtured somewhere else. If they enjoy a good reputation, it is because they have gone through the French or Italian system. Name me 1 Moroccan Moroccan player, truly nurtured there, that is underway to the absolute top?
You suggested that carrying the Dutch nationality somehow would hamper a career. That is a claim and we can probably look at data if this is correct. Personal sponsor contracts for example. When Maher choose for the Dutch NT, he got a Tweet from vd Vaart days later not to welcome him to the NT, but to the Nike family . So to substantiate this, I would need to see the relative difference between personal sponsor contracts. I would need to see if the Moroccan NT gets better sponsor deals. Netherlands gets paid I think by NT's to play against. That is why we had those stupid games in China and Indonesia. To grab some millions and it even lead to us getting a a tough group (on paper) for 2014. I am not sure Moroccan NT has this. Damaging for what then? Landing a club? To the contrary. Read this from another forum:
All expressions of love. I have seen same things from Barca fans, even Bayern fans, Milan fans and what not. Scouts? Well currently maybe. I still have to see 1 quote from any scout that would dare to say something you suggest though. That he would not take a Dutch player for reasons of nationality. Never heard that, but feel free to drop a source. Again, football is too professional for such petty sentiments. A scout needs to deliver or he loses his job. He needs to look at pure quality and what background a player has is less important. I actually think only a few countries have an slight advantage (others are treated the same) and maybe Netherlands is even in that elite group. Where a scout would go Dutch if he thinks all things are equal looking at the data. I mean how can Gladbach pay so much money for a young Luuk de Jong? Why did Afellay even get a chance at Barca? I mean this was elite Barca with Xavi still kicking all gears in midfield. Also if we look at the coaches. Why did Frank Rijkaard after relegating with Sparta still land such a prestigious job? Why was van Gaal the first real foreigner (oke Irish people will not like this remark) to lead United? Quite an honor. We even had 3 coaches in the EPL (van Gaal, Koeman, Advocaat), now 2. It might actually be the other way around. That was also why in 2010 there was so much outrage after the WC. People have certain expectations and felt even betrayed.
And somebody like me who follows quite some football does not know those names. Bentaleb I know. It's because Algeria did play a good game, but they lost in the end. Maybe somebody with more focus on that region notices, but I am not focussed and will only start to get really interested if they do something remarkable. Like getting in a final or winning it. Or getting in a semi final. Like that Turkey achievement in 2002.
However to get a transfer I am sure you are right. It will be good for their career. I still think playing according the European agenda is better all things equal. I also think those players are just good. That is my point. Memphis can not control a ball. He is just not good (has some other qualities). I think that if the Netherlands starts producing quality again, that the good name that past generations have build will even help them a bit. Not so much, football is a meritocracy, but a little push. Especially if Dutch coaches play a role in key positions. That is a thing that counts. Dutch coaches.
...European agenda, Orange shirt, relative good organisation. Even the Moroccan FA has a Dutch guy calling some shots there. Forgot his name. That guy really helped stepping up the game to get these better talents to choose for Morocco. Not sure he is the main force, but certainly helped.
In terms of status, the Moroccan NT has one to build. It might well be that they are on the verge of something great, but first they have to prove it.
And where is Morocco in such a list then? How do you measure things with such claims? I don't see the proof. Pointing to the future is something I can do as well. U17 teams have been in 5 Euro finals over the past 10 years and won 2 of them. Many of them are now getting closer to the age of making their debut for their professional team. Maybe we have something great in some years from now. Who knows. I don't know. How do you know that Mastour will become this big player that can do more than juggling with a ball? It is quite something to use anticipating results to justify some of your claims. Even Belgium some years ago had players winning personal honors and they were not this willing to bank on the future. Vertonghen was best in Eredivisie. That Everton player in Greece. Hazard in France. Probably a good player in Belgium itself. If Moroccan players become the best in multiple leagues, then that is an interesting indication (beside the actual results) for what is to come.
It is possible, I just think it is not right to already bank on it. A country that has never reached elite vs a country that has and is at third place over now almost 50 years according to the Elo ranking .... So if Morocco does not reach the WC for 2018 and Netherlands manages to get there, everything is different again? It is too hyper for me. This is not solid ground for reasonable prediction to me.
Not according to his own words, but even if we follow your reasoning then you still have to deal with a flaw in the logic. He could have gone to Feyenoord, but went to FC Twente as he had better chances to play. He did not want the hardest competition, he wanted to play. So if we follow your logic, Morocco has or will have more talent density and that would lead to more competition. Maybe even especially on his spot (don't know this, but I think I heard somewhere that there are more 10's for the Moroccan NT that are interesting). His choice for Morocco is then in conflict with the result of the past weighing process before club choice. Another arrow that points to what he actually says is how it is.
There aren't of course, everyone knows the infrastructures and formation are better in europe.
Right, the system, the coach and the players determination are a big factor, but it has limits as well. Don't forget Holland had Robben, a bit of Van Persie, Nigel and Sneijder in 2014...Otherwise even with Van Gaal's system and a good organisation, I really doubt Holland would have gone so far. As you say, it can still be enough to qualify for the WC. Maybe even get the 2nd round. But more ? No. So what's the difference with Morocco actually ? Same level for me.
You know that the problem is very deep. It's not a question of periods. France had awful results from 2007 to 2012 but with top quality players. You had two Henry, two Gallas, two Sagna etc. the club ones and the NT ones. Sometimes it could be very striking, Henry could play a wonderful game with his club on saturday and the most shitty game ever with France four days later. The problem was obviously intern in the team. Organisation, coordination between players, determination,coachs...
Now we all know Holland has a problem at the roots of its football. It's obvious at every level. Clubs, NT, playing style...Everything has been set up to hide it. Playing a back possession football, calling crack after three games every player like Sarpong or Castillon that would make the senior Ajax team...The signs were already clear in 2010/2012, now we just reached the point of no return.
The difference is that I don't see anything changing for Holland. 80 % of the young dutch players are potentially bi national now, aren't they ? Holland doesn't have any diaspora neither. How do you want things to change ?
Morocco has a big diaspora, in Spain, France, Italy, Belgium, Holland...Even in scandinavian countries. Just look at Norway, there are only 20 000 moroccans living there and yet the norvegian NT has 5 moroccan players now. It's crazy.
So to take Holland as example, as you said it yourself many times the turkish diaspora goes for Turkey. They're very nationalistic. The moroccan ones are starting to go for Morocco. Holland has some recent african waves also, especially from Ghana and Cap Verde. Ghana is a strong african squad and Cap Verde has improved a lot, players can chose for these selections.
So you're left with the surinamian and antillan players that will probably chose for Holland as long as their countries don't do anything significant in the north american zone. That's all. It's not as if the white kids were going to play football again, is it ?
The only solution is to wait for the FIFA to change the rules cause Holland is probably the country that will suffer the most from the bi national players.
Tell that Greece 2004 and I say that as the flip side from having adapted the van Gaal lemmings philosophy is that we should have some proper robots to select for the NT. Every disadvantage has an advantage.
The difference is that even with a mediocre squad Netherlands becomes third of the world, which is better than any result an African side has ever achieved in all their history. Not just Morocco, but all countries on that continent. That is the difference. You make claims that are impossible to make IMO since you and I don't know the response. Football is a response business. We are kicked out of the Euro, analyses that something is wrong is becoming mainstream and then we get to see who says "this is not us, we need to do better". I still trust on the response. You don't see it, but that is also not easily to see as change does not only happen in KNVB. Also clubs from the bottom up can bring change. Like the introduction of the Twin game system. To only use KNVB as an indication for change would be a mistake IMO. Also input from the outside helps our case. We are jammed between 2 countries that are top of the world now. Belgium in the south and Germany to the east. Nr 1 on the FIFA ranking and WC winner. That matters. From early on we measure is also by looking how we compare to our neighbors. I mean Belgium did this all the time with Netherlands and probably also France. Yeah they have been gone for quite some time, but look at them now. How can such a small country become nr 1 on the FIFA ranking? Without wanting to take away anything away from their own achievement, a factor that plays a role is having France in the south, Netherlands in the north and Germany to their east. Far bigger countries like Japan and Mexico have tried hard to become elite, countries with 100 million people as a population, yet here we look at Belgium. Yes, they probably reap the fruits of change, better planning, better a lot of things, but inspiration from close proximity of world elite played a role to come to that response. I am sure of that and as long North Western Europe is this strong, it will have a very positive influence on us and will trigger s to respond.
This is where we disagree. Like how you say on "all levels". A German poster the other day dropped this post in another thread:
The U15, U16, U17, U18, U19, PT And Young Orange Team - Thread
And indeed I went to the game report of the DFB and the U17 coach of Germany really singled Netherlands out. So it is too much to say "all levels" and concerning clubs, well a Wim Jonk is not a Frank de Boer. I have seen good games from the A1 of Ajax, it is Frank who has adapted a philosophy that is damaging.
From the bottom up and hoping that immense pressure will build up to have change from the top as well.
But also explainable. Will we also see a sudden rise in Moroccan Nobel prize winners? Maybe, but I don't think so. I think they express more by sport and especially football. That is the doorway for many Moroccans to to climb the social ladder. They are the ones playing till late on the street, honing that skill so that they look more technical. However Norweigh also have produced that big talent, now playing for Real Madrid youth.
Not El Ghazi. Ould-Chikh? Nouri?
Why not? There are many "white kids" that are on a good track currently and who are the best in Belgium? de Bruyne, Hazard. Germany? Well Ozil is damn sweet, but there is also Gotze, Max Meijer, Mueller and a whole range of players that are damn good footballers. Mind you, the strongest generation Netherlands produced is till the seventeenths and what was the configuration back then? You can say that they now all play football on their xbox or playstation or whatever, but the Belgian kids as well and the German ones as well. If there is a difference, we need to find it and fix it. I see no problem for a proper response and since when is a diaspora needed or on the table for anything? How do you know it is this blessing? You look only then at player quality, what about homogeneity? How about also really feeling a collective? Very important in a team sport as football. There has been a huge difference between results and player quality concerning Morocco. Not even getting out of the group last African Cup or the one before, never mind going to a WC. How do you know that is not a monster for them to continually to battle with players from all these cultures?
Concerning Netherlands/Dutch NT, I actually think that one layer of the solution is to not really think in division in the first place. Yes there is a group that can choose for 2 NT's, but apart from that, BMI, Wijnaldum, Robben, El Ghazi are all Dutch and playing for the Dutch NT. This problem has intensified since those FA's (both Turkey and Morocco, now even Suriname or they wanted to) have professionalized their lure activities to grab what they can to push for a better NT, while doing nothing to develop them. They benefit from division or thinking lines of division, so the best thing is not play into their hands. I see 11 Dutch people on the field.
I don't think FIFA will do anything and I don't think the dependency on bi national players is that big. Even now we would have hoped for a Strootman to recover. Not a bi national player.
It wasn't a mediocre dutch team. It was a mediocre one compared to the previous ones, ok, but still it was better on the paper than any african team. Only Ivory Coast could give a challenge on the paper. Holland found a good system AND had Robben. Plus some little magic from Sneijder and Van Persie like that goal against Spain.
Who were the two best dutch players during the world cup ? Vlaar and Robben. Born in 85 and 84.
Now my point is that without those players, Holland would be an average team and it would never reach a WC 3rd place, even with a good system and coach. And it's not a claim anymore, it's a fact now. We played against Czech, Iceland and Turkey, 6 games, with two different coachs, sometimes with Robben, sometimes not, and we couldn't win any of them. We can't call that an accident. The same Eredivisie players that were on the pitch against those teams are also mediocre when they play against the same players with their clubs. Feyenoord lost to Sparta Prague a couple of years ago, dutch clubs don't beat the turkish ones. Why would we beat their NT's ?
We had great results in 2008-2014 cause we had a majority of players playing in good leagues/top clubs.
We had 5 players with Real in 2009, even if most of them failed, still they were there. Only our defenders were playing in sub english/eredivisie clubs, now we reached the level where even the midfielders and strikers are.
I don't see any dutch player able to sign with a big club this summer. The situation will stay like this until the next generations.
Well I've seen the pictures of the german and belgian youth teams and they seem to have more white players than Holland. Don't really know why.
I agree for the part about Morocco, there is a big problem to build an homogene group because of the different languages, clans etc.
What a character is Ziyech:
"Stiekem hoopt Ziyech op een toekomstige ontmoeting tussen Nederland en Marokko. Een doelpunt tégen zijn geboorteland is zijn droom. "Ik heb geen borstkas of spieren, nee. Maar het shirt gaat uit. Net als Mario Balotelli (op het EK van 2012, red.)." (voetbalprimeur.nl)
Not only he refused to play for the country who gave him everything, now his "dream" is to score against that country...
Btw, Tannane decided to play for Morocco this week. The Morocco FA doesn't have to do anything other than send scouts to Europe and sweet-talk talents developed in other countries. Is that fair competition?. Shouldn't FIFA do something about this kind of NT whose players (almost all of them) were born and formed in other countries?.
Been spoken about quite abit on this forum, but its as simple as the players themselves get to decide(cant really change this), and the FA's of eligible countries are to sweettalk them, only critisism there should be is on our own FA in that regard.
Boufal from Lille just chosed for Morocco as well. Could be material for the french NT since he'll probably move to a bigger club next summer.
Morocco is building a serious good team for 2018 :
----Hakimi (R.Madrid youth)-------Benatia (Bayern)---------Da Costa (Olympiakos)-------------Lazaar(Palermo)
--------------------------------------El Ahmadi (Feyenoord)------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------El Kaddouri (Napoli)---------------------------------------
----Mastour ( Milan AC )-----------------------Ziyech (Twente)-------------------------------------------Boufal(Lille)
Just needs a real keeper, a better DM than El Ahmadi (maybe Ayoub ?), and a real ST.
How many of those players were born and trained in Marocco?.
your still missing Mehdi Carcela, Tonnane, Taarabt, Didar, Boussoufa, Belhanda, Koudouri, El Arabi, Labyad, El Kabir, Checahoui
Bench players, except for Belhanda who can challenge for a starting spot.
Not much just like for any other african nation. I don't really understand why people hate this though cause even if a talented kid is born in Africa, european scouts will do everything to bring him to europe sometimes even before he reaches his puberty, so the real question is rather : Can a good african player get a formation in Africa ?