Review: Dutch Moroccan and Dutch Turkish players who choose country of heritage over the Dutch NT. Analyses.

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Mar 14, 2015.

  1. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Yes, thanks I was aware of that option, but it does not cover all bases for my intention with this thread.
  2. And again you implie you know what I've done or think and make me the scapegoat of your tendency for gross generalization, while you know shit of me. It has been my job to spot fraud for decades and I was damn good at it, not only in numbers and accounts, but also in documents and paper trails. No matter how elaborated the efforts were to hide in sheer numbers of paper the fraud, I would spot the inconsistency. In that resect your spawn of words is amateuristic and hardly a challenge to me to put the finger on where you are wrong. I know more about religion than you do, simply because of my age and the age at which I started to get interested in what people look for in religion. I was raised in a Christian family from the Bible belt of the Dutch province Zeeland and from the Dutch reformed church (Ned. Hervormd). So from the very strict parts of Chrisianity. At the age of ten I accidentally loaned a book in the library that wasnot ment for my age, about ancient Egypt and its religion. That was the start of my journy into the believes of people, from the Incas and Aztecs into the Vedas to Buddism. So of course I ventured into the other Abrahamistic religions and the history of Christianity itself. I did that before the search for knowledge deteriorated in looking for sticks to hit the other one. I kept out of the debate about the believes in this thread as the level of knowledge displayed was typical of the internet age, googled and you get alot of shit without any real understanding or verification of the value it has. But where I reacted on was the pattern of blaming with a single mold for a whole diverse pattern of people all over the world and turning a blind eye for the same things in the other two camps. As I said in one of my first posts, donot judge people on who they are or what religion they have, but on what their actions are.
    BaritoPutra and Orange14 repped this.
  3. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Part 1

    So it turns out we needed you with this whole Greece mess. Or wait a minute, you were not taking part in any fraud checking process of Greek books before we let them be part of the Euro using group, where you? Now it all starts to make sense to me. :p

    Seriously though, I read your posts on this forum in past years and you are a regressive SJW to me. In this very post I see the the wrong nobility perpetrated again. You have been white knighting from the start and this is an essential part of the problem. It is all related. Laurent posted at the start of this thread a video of Dutch Moroccan kids acting like they own the street and saying despicable stuff. He wondered what has gone wrong in the Netherlands. He should take a long hard look at people like you. The noble knights creating this double standard, giving them the feeling they can say and do what they want. Younger generations now have to clean up this mess and still the noble men think they are in a position to judge how that is done.

    And what they get back from it right? Religions are also potent sources to derive values from. Or are you one one of those that think people only read into religion what they want to? That the text gives nothing back? Also keep in mind, Islam is not only a religion, it has a very political dimension as well. We will get to that later, but it is good to make this clear from the start.

    Just one remark I wanted to make in this thread, but now use this opportunity for as it popped up with me now you tell this story, many people assume that the spectrum in all 3 religions is the same. That extreme Christianity or conservative Christianity is the same as conservative Islam. This is not the case if we look at extremism and then the support for extremism. Simple example is the Al Jazeera (main stream media) poll where 81% of the people voted for support of ISIS in Iraq and Syria. So when you say strict part of Christianity, that does not mean it overlaps with the strict parts of Islam. A moderate Christian does not have to equal a moderate Muslim.


    Let's continue.

    You are tolerant for the intolerant, I am intolerant for the intolerant. No even stronger, you protect the rapist, I protect the rape victims. That will be the theme running through this whole debate. Every time it will be the same theme. You protect the intolerant minority in this country and in Europe: the Muslims. That appeals to your nobility and that is your job. I on the other hand protect the minorities in these minorities and the minorities in Muslim majority countries .

    You see, that is what my nobility urges me to go. I don’t do superficial nonsense. I don’t get rozy when I get to see some apologist crap in the form of videos or books. I look at the facts on the ground, especially when that group has a majority. We can see how a group is when it has power. I am not so interested in how a small minority is not all militant and eager to grab the power, controlling a country. They are not stupid. They wait. So, let me see how they treat minorities in the areas they do control.

    I read and post on a forum for ex muslim already for over 2 years now I think. I have talked to hundreds of them, living in these different Muslim countries. By PM or by conversations like we do here. Some ask for money as they are kicked out of their houses in Pakistan for example, when their families find out. Some fear for their whole future as they are gay and I try to calm them down. I don’t have time to deal with this nonsense that Muslims are the oppressed in the world. They are not and also not here in the West when being in the minority, certainly not to their own standards with which they treat minorities themselves. I will just share some stories I typically get to hear:

    Story 1: Urging people to be cautious (open)

    I'm a lurker here, and decided to make this post to the mods & users of this sub because I am concerned about potential security risks some members are taking by posting on this sub in a strict Islamic nation (i.e: S.A)

    It is widely known that internet traffic in these countries are monitored by governments to help monitor, manage and suppress the spreading of ideas that could undermine their legitimacy, such as any ideologies that are mutually exclusive with fundamentalist beliefs of the nations.

    While I only know of cases of public bloggers facing such trials, it's not a stretch to think they would keep a profile on in-closet exm's just for the sake of keeping track of it; as similar things happened before in many communist countries in history.

    While it's impossible to make yourself completely safe from this threat, learning how to make use TOR browser; a privacy enhancing browser would go a long way in providing you with decent level of protection & privacy from prying eyes.[1] check the sidebar to get started.

    Stay safe.

    Arab getting depressed from Western SJW (open)
    As an Atheist Arab living in the Middle East, posts like yours greatly depress me as well as all liberals, free thinkers and atheists in the Middle East who would love to have someone speak for them like Richard Dawkins. Especially women who are constantly under severe Islamic patriarchal oppression.

    We are at the moment through Islamic hell, while you do mention that your media is trying to paint the middle east in horror stories, and that these stories are just "Part of the picture" that is true, but not the way that you think. What you see in your media is only very few atrocities that people commit in the name of Islam, It is even much worse outside the western media, your media focuses too much on how Westerners are affected by them. You probably have not heard of ISIS before they beheaded a western journalist, that is because your media didn't start to care until westerners got affected. You also probably wouldn't be talking about Tunisia very much if the dead people were not Westerners.

    Islamic sectarian wars have been happening since 1400 years ago, between the Shiites and the Sunnis. and Muslims are not going to stop doing it any time soon. In Iraq alone more than 30 people die every single day from this religious war. This isn't "Western Imperialism" or anything that your Muslim friends tell you about, this is Islamic Imperialism, in other words Persian Imperialism vs Arab Imperialism, Arabs the Sunnis, Persians the Shiites. And the whole Middle East is the playground for their sick games.

    What your country does is supply this war with weapons, supply and demand. the Sunni Allies demand weapons and you supply them, simple as that. Sunnis hate you but they hate Shiites more than you. And you hate Shiites and Russians hate you and the Sunnis so they supply the Shiites with weapons, no the cold war never ended because people like yourself keep denying that there are actual problems in the "Muslim world" and that there is actual problems with Muslims themselves.

    You did mention that there are feminist movements in the "Muslim World" and that it was here for centuries, funny. because you have heard it and I never did. See how much it is negligible? Dawkins is right, there needs to be a feminist revolution. We're actually becoming more and more anti-women by the day, we're going backwards not forward in this issue. Yes. we do need a feminist revolution, and yes we do need more Dawkins than we do people who see issue in race, sex and social stature. People who are very short sighted by their anti-White male hatred that they do not allow the world to live and let live. Just because you and your Muslim friends are living a free, privileged, civilized and war free life does not mean that most women live the same way as you are. because most Muslim women and especially those living in the middle east don't even have the luxury to use the internet without their husband's permission. Most Western Muslims are going to simply deny this because they do not want their countries to turn on them (hence why they use Islamophobia as an excuse), but the real world; the real "Muslim World" it is simply not the case, and we need more people like Dawkins and Hirsi Ali than people like you and Reza Aslan

    Fear of a certain apostate in case of coming out (open)
    Probably will be beaten/stoned publicly to death if I tell publicly why I left islam.

    More frustration about how the SJW in the West sell them out (open)
    ******** Islam from an Arab ex-muslim. We ex-muslim in the middle east hide our true identity and beliefs and force ourselves to go to the mosque five times a day and practise Islam just to stay alive. Meanwhile, white liberal progressives who claim to be against bigotry oppose freedom of speech and choice in the west and support the most bigoted religion on earth. I don't understand that, is it because they are not the ones who suffer because of it? Is it just pure self hatred of their own race/countries that make them only see what's wrong with people from the same race? Or is it because they're ignorant of what Islam really is? I wish all of them were born here.

    Why it is not just the government (open)
    Ex Muslims biggest threat are their own family. What other religious people would murder their own family members for leaving the faith?

    I also saw this quick exchange. BD in this story is Bangladesh. They are scared to death and understandably as just this week another atheist blogger there has been hacked to death.


    Muslim societies are bigoted societies (open)
    I understand the limitations of living in a bigoted society like Egypt but this is too far. An Egyptian netizen that I've heard of has just been turned into police custody awaiting a trial. His crime is starting a facebook page called "Egyptian Atheists" is an ex-copt turned atheist and it infuriates me that people in Egypt protest violently when other factions criticize their faith and yet they still persecute anyone who differs in beliefs with them. They continuously ostracize Egyptian citizens who work, pay taxes and are overall pleasant people for the petty fact that they don't believe in Islam. I honestly don't know what to do and I would appreciate any help Thanks again

    I have a million more for you, but you get the picture.

    You see, the time you picked up information from apologists or kuumbaja writers, I am in daily contact with people around the world suffering from Muslim oppression. Moreover, I see how they get treated by Muslims on the different forums as well. I am in direct contact with these people.

    This information to hit other ones as you call it, is fueled and made out of the tears and blood of its victims. Why should I be tolerant for the intolerant? Who says, you are not the one to be judged here for the position you take as one of these Arab posters put so well. This one bit is for you:

    Read FSF
    Meanwhile, white liberal progressives who claim to be against bigotry oppose freedom of speech and choice in the west and support the most bigoted religion on earth. I don't understand that, is it because they are not the ones who suffer because of it?

    That is what I am wondering myself. Are you comfi in that chair of yours? Feeling all fuzzy over how noble you are, taking the easy routes? Your kind is making my work harder. I don’t have the luxury you do seem to have and as I said, the new generations will have to clean up a gigantic mess you guys leave behind, not to mention all the suffering you close your eyes for. This nonsense to create this double standard for Islam is unbearable.
  4. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    #154 DRB300, Aug 13, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
    Part 2:

    It depends what sources one uses. Internet can be a gold mine if you look right. Muslims are really good at bullshitting you with apologist stuff and if you read their apologist books, then you brainwash yourself without looking at the reality. Actually, it is the internet that allows people to do lots of verification. There has been no time other than now that people from all around the world can communicate with each other. In the past the autocracies and treatment of minorities would not end up in this part of the world, but now it does. This is bad news for the ones wanting to paint rosy pictures. This is also bad news for the noble people who just want to put their head in the sand and continue with their Kumbajaa mindset.

    I am not oke with how Muslim countries treat my atheist brothers. Let’s look at something fresh, just coming in this week:

    Saudi Arabia taking things to a new level:

    Article (open)
    The Penal Law for Crimes of Terrorism and its Financing criminalizes as “terrorism” all free expression on a vast range of topics, including advocacy of “atheist thought”, criticism of Islam as it is understood by the state, and any expression deemed to “insult the reputation of the state”.

    Saudia Arabia is a current and recently-elected member of the United Nations Human Rights Council.

    Details of the law

    Article 1 of the “terrorism” law prohibits “Calling for atheist thought in any form, or calling into question the fundamentals of the Islamic religion on which this country is based.” The law was introduced by royal decree without judicial oversight.

    Domestic “terrorism” is defined in the decree as “any act” (expressly including non-violent acts) which among other things is intended to “insult the reputation of the state,” “harm public order,” or “shake the security of society”. The terms are very broad, and and could be used to prosecute any criticism of the state, its king or officials, or the state conception of Islam.

    The provisions of the “terrorism” law define and outlaw numerous acts and forms of expression as “terrorism”, including:

    1. “Calling for atheist thought in any form”
    2. any disloyalty “to the country’s rulers”, or anyone “who swears allegiance to any party, organization, current [of thought], group, or individual inside or outside [the kingdom]”
    3. anyone who aids, affiliates, or holds “sympathy” with any “terrorist” organization as defined by the act, which “includes participation in audio, written, or visual media; social media in its audio, written, or visual forms; internet websites; or circulating their contents in any form”;
    4. contact with groups or individuals who are “hostile to the kingdom”
    5. and the article on “Seeking to shake the social fabric or national cohesion” prohibits all protest, without qualification as to its message or intent, by outlawing “calling, participating, promoting, or inciting sit-ins, protests, meetings, or group statements in any form”.

    What many Euros don't get is that there is another imperialism going on and that is the Arabic/Saudi one. Over a Billion people bow every day to Mekka and this is the stuff that very important religious country is going for. You get that? It is not just a country, it is the country they all pray to and hope to travel to one day. They carry weight and they would love it if all of Europe would bow towards them.

    Anyway, sickening what they do legislatively and what if I told you that there are 13 countries in the world where atheists can receive the death penalty? Guess how many Muslim…. All of them. Now you go cuddle with the Muslims not having a problem with this, my loyalty is with people being at the receiving end of this injustice. Where is the outrage about this compared to the outrage about Palestine?

    There is also something else to consider when I talk about all this. Something new is happening maybe, also due to the internet and new generations. While you can still sympathize with religion, I can not. I don’t understand why people can get a free pass, putting their signature under a philosophy that is full of bigotry and hate. You see, you defending people's right to do so, is you defending bigotry and hate to me. For example this stuff:

    Why would anybody have the right to freely subscribe to these notions, without having to pay a social price for it and having to defend it at all time? Because there is something divine about these ancient retard texts? No. Nobody gets a free pass and religion can not be used as being exempted from having to defend that sh*t. You believe that stuff, you own it and you defend it. Everybody has to back up his own claims and beliefs. People defending this, like you do now, also have to defend the bigotry it contains. This all comes back to my principle of equality. I am not going to create one set of people that can be called bigot as they oppose the believes the others hold, that are actually hateful and bigoted, but then so called protected due to religion. No. The religious texts are full of bigotry and people adhering that religion own it.

    Concerning the value it has, I am very pissed off about the mental mess it creates concerning the concept of "faith", that goes hand in hand with religion. Religions are fairy tails, but the concept of faith is a cancer that needs to be wiped off the planet. Why? Because it makes a virtue out of faulty reasoning and keeps us from progressing as a species. " Faith" is considered a good thing these days. Faith, the most stupid concept ever invented to shove unsubstantiated claims through peoples throat. This is where one of my heros comes in:

    With the spread of religion that can have value, also comes the spread of faith and that virus. The faith virus makes really smart people deny really obvious and proven things. Take for example the whole Adam and Eve story. Both many Christians and Muslims believe that crap, even if they get the proof that it is nonsense:

    Adam & Eve = Bullshit (open)

    "But science has completely falsified the idea of a historical Adam and Eve, and on two grounds. First,our species wasn’t poofed into being by a sudden act of creation. We know beyond reasonable doubt that we evolved from a common ancestor with modern chimps, an ancestor living around six million years ago. Modern human traits—which include our brain and genetically determined behaviors—evolved gradually. Further, there were many species of proto-humans (all called “hominins”) that branched off and died before the ancestors of our own species remained as the last branch. As many as four or five species of human like primates may have lived at the same time! Some of these extinct groups, like the Neanderthals, had culture and big brains, and were “modern” humans in all but name. Theologians, then,are forced to square the sudden incursion of sin with the gradual evolution of humans from earlier primates.

    * What is evolution clips:
    * Why it is solid:
    * The scientists that are against it: ,

    More important, evolutionary geneticists now know that the human population could never have been as small as only two individuals—much less the eight who rode out the flood on Noah’s Ark. Since sequencing of human genomes became possible on a large scale, we can back-calculate from the observed genetic diversity in our species to find out roughly when different forms of human genes diverged from one another, and how many forms of a given gene existed at a given time. Because each human has two copies of each gene, this gives us a minimum estimate of how many humans existed at a given time.We’ve also been able to use genes to trace the path of ancient human populations as they spread from Africa throughout the world.

    The genetic evidence tells us several things. First, the genes in all modern humans diverged from one another a long time ago—long before the 6,000 to 10,000 years estimated from scripture. We can, for example, trace all the Y chromosomes of existing males back to a single man who lived between 120,000 and 340,000 years ago. This individual is often called “Y-chromosome Adam.” But that’s a bit misleading, for although all the Y chromosomes of modern humans descend from this one individual, therest of our genome descends from a multitude of different ancestors who lived at various times ranging from 10,000 to about 4 million years ago. Our genome testifies to literally hundreds of “Adams and Eves” who lived at different times—a result of the fact that different parts of our DNA were inherited differently based on the vagaries of reproduction and the random division of genes when sperm and eggs are formed. The observations that different parts of our genomes have different ages, some going back millions of years, and that they come from different ancestors, completely dispel the biblical date of human origins and the idea that all of our DNA was bequeathed by a Primal Couple.

    * Francalacci et al. 2013:
    * Poznik et al. 2013:
    * Mendez et al. 2013:
    * Garrigan and Hamer 2006:

    But the evidence is even stronger, for we can also back-calculate from DNA sequences the size of human populations at different times in the past. And we know that when our ancestors left Africa between 100,000 and 60,000 years ago to colonize the world, the size of the migrating group dropped to a minimum of 2,250 individuals—and that’s an underestimate. The population that remained in Africa stayed larger: a minimum of about 10,000 people. The total number of ancestors of modern humans, then, was not two but over 12,000 individuals. This is a very strong scientific refutation of the Adam and Eve scenario.

    * Henn, Cavalli-Sforza, and Feldman 2012:
    * Li and Durbin 2011:
    * Sheehan, Harris, and Song 2013:

    And it puts Christians in a tight spot. If there were no Adam and Eve, then whence the original sin? And if there was no original sin transmitted to Adam’s descendants, then Jesus’s Crucifixion and Resurrection expiated nothing: it was a solution without a problem. In other words, Jesus died for a metaphor.

    More religion, gets us more faith crap, gets us a country investing in faulty reasoning. No sorry, I am not in favor of that. Faith. Believe without evidence. It’s just dumb and it needs to go. So, value? I don’t think so. It makes whole countries partially ignorant and keeps us from progressing in general.

    To connect here with the purpose of the thread, many Dutch people are actually non religious, if not atheist. Netherlands one of the least religious countries in the world and this is very important when considering the thread we are in. It is not only religion that we have to focus on here. This phenomena of a group that are almost exclusively Muslim, pretty damn conservative (Erdogan got 60% of the Dutch Turkish vote), while operating in a pretty atheist country that thinks pretty low of religion in general, causes a dynamic on its own. For example Muslims feel better in the USA as that is a religious country. Maybe they would feel more eager to represent USA than a country like the Netherlands. This is a point to consider in this thread, however only a ball I throw up in the air.

    1. This is about Dutch Moroccan and Turkish players, what are they? Jewish?

    2. Every year more people get killed by Islamic terror than in 350 years of inquisitions.

    3. The broad brush argument does not hold for several reasons:




    For example 60% of the Dutch Turks voted for Erdogan. Much higher than one would think and that guy is a creep. However we can judge a group better when they have power and see what they do with their minorities:


    Do they reach a level of freedom? No, from Morocco to Indonesia, it is pretty damn horrible:

    How do they treat people leaving the religion:

    How are their religious laws set up (Muslim vs Kuffaar):

    So the pattern is the same almost everywhere. Freedom, equality, the treatment of minorities get worse and that does say something about Muslims as a whole. Country after country there is gross discrimination to all non Muslims. No I am not letting that slide and no I am not settling for an apology from the Muslim community. I want that fixed and only after that, trust can heal. Where is the backlash from the Muslim community for all this injustice? They were angry when a Muslim women did not receive a closed can of coke in an airplane, but they do not care for all of this. So egotistical. So gross. Such an eye opener. It is called in group out group thinking and there is no group in the world that has this more than Muslims at this point in time. It is robotic behavior, rooted in their religion that causes this and this sh*t needs to be called out. I am not having this.

    Alright let’s test this. You would not judge anybody for who they are. What if you would see this:


    You would hire this guy if he was good at accounting? That is what your motto means. This guy is just a Nazi, he is not going on the street killing Jews. Just a Nazi. Alright, if he is good at his job, you would have no reason to not hire him. That is what you say and what you should own. Yes or no?

    Furthermore, in hindsight, your idea of not judging people for who they are has no way of stopping an intolerant group getting bigger or really taking actions against them becoming bigger. If a group says and proofs elsewhere to treat minorities like sh*t and get bigger and bigger, your motto offers nothing to prevent what the Nazis did to us and the rest of Europe or one of those versions. An intolerant group that the weak Weimar Republic just not pushed back effectively as they had no good idea as to what to do with an intolerant group. We see this Nazi crap happening at the hands of ISIS as we speak, who have wiped out the Yazidis and many more. Cleansing is back and thousands of European boys (and girls) have joined in. Oh how proud I feel.

    At this point in time it is criminal to act like there is nothing special going on here. No it is not noble of you to to jump on the fence for Islam or any Muslim subscribing to the intolerant parts it contains, it is even criminal. You are part of the problem then. Just because it calls itself a religion, just because it is part of the 3 Abraham religions, does not mean there are not many differences, that it has developed its own way or that it automatically will progress like the other 2 do. It already starts with the fact that Mo is totally different from a guy like Jesus. Did Jesus kill as many people as Mo? Did Jesus kill his enemies? All the way to how more than 25 Muslim countries are 90-100% Muslim:


    Oh yeah, that does not look suspect. Not suspect at all :laugh:

    What do people think? That I am blind? That my friends, is a big red flag of a dominating mindset living among us.

    If on all levels from scripture, to their cocoon neighborhoods in the west, to their majority societies, to their laws, to their terrorism, there seems to be a gross, intolerant, suppressing theme going on, then I am coming out and speak my mind. No, I am going to declare that I am intolerant for the intolerant. Who says that they are tolerant for the intolerant have some explaining to do. Actually, a lot. Start with what you think of how Muslim nations, especially many rich ones, treat their minorities. I like to have your take on that one.

    Or this:


    Newsflash: Beliefs can be translated into legislation, going at the cost of minorities.
  5. Well, you prove with these posts you are incapable of learning from your errors. Again in these last posts you implie opinions, attitudes and actions with me that are absent in my posts. There was only one subject I ever gave a strong opinion about and got attacked by miss neeskens for being a racist, and that subject was the matter of starting players in the Orange team, that were naturalized and not gone through our youth education. So nevertheless you claim I am a sjw or whatever the acronym from my years of posting here. Well, I think you are the only one who has spotted that, because no one ever has brought that against me. But as is with certain people that you talk with, whatever the subject, they always manage to come out at sex. I already posted that you probably suffer from the psycological disorder known as "confirmation bias", which seems to mean that you leave from a starting point/believe and look for "evidence", that supports it.
    That is totally in contrast with my attitude (also born from my profession), which is to look at the total picture and deduce from it what is the matter. In the subject that drives yo to spawn enormous amounts of text (which I only skimm since about the second page of this thread) that means listening to scholars from universities in the States, UK, France, etc. (not the same as the fanatics you refer to) about the real text and the additions made by people with an agenda. (the same thing goes and was done by me for the two other Abrahamistic believes by the way). The political and historic dimension and the economical side of this all.
    It isnot your fault you trail behind in knowledge, but it is your fault when you take a one dimensional approach and call everyone else that doesnot follow you in that vision a sjw. And it is your flaw when you pick up wrong doings an then generalize it to the total group of people. In the whole of what I read from you it screams generalization as you did with looking at my age and generalize the blame for a by you perceived problem to all people from about my age. How stupid can you be.
    And about Greece, it didnot take my kind of knowledge in 2000 to know it was a fraud. It was common knowledge, but politicians with a certain agenda pushed it through, as they did with the Euro. I was dead against it from an economical and socio-economical point of view. But it wasnot an economical project, but a political one. That's fine, but then they steared away from the necessities that accompany such a project. About 2 or 2.5 years ago in a discussion with people about the development we could expect from the markets I hoped the situation with the Greek would end in a totall collapse of Greece. The remark was made that that would be very bad for the Eurozone costing billions. My point of view was that we wouldnot have to pump in hundreds of billions in support outweighing the loss we at that time would make. But it was a political decision and again not an economical one to keep on going, resulting in the second coming of the Greek crisis. Had Greece exploded the first time the humanitarian aid to Greece would have been a fraction of the cost now. But also in a case like this it is what matters to you that makes a decision right or wrong. I look at it from an economical and social point of view and others take a geopolitical view. I can understand their stance, though I'm not agreeing with it. You would burn the people with the opposite view to the ground. That's the difference between you and me.
  6. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    It is actually more meant as a warning. You can not extract that much intention from a small minority in Europe and we have many great examples of Muslim majority countries out there. We can look at scripture, we can look at opinion stats, we can look at these Muslim neighborhoods in England for example, we can look at the minorities and how they are treated by their own family, even here in the west, we can look at how minorities are treated in Muslim majority countries, we can look at the laws in Muslim majority countries, we can look at sharia and how that is an inspiration to draw from and which is something that also happens. Now notice I have not mentioned terrorism even yet.

    I tried to look at all these layers and all layers look bad. It is just bad. However, you are concerned about the " broad brush" thing. As I said, I have spoken with many, many ex Muslims that live in fear and I side with them as the other minorities, both here and there. I don't have time for this sensitivity and let it get in the way of going after intolerance and reform. Have some sensitivity for the people that really get stamped on. Try to read their stories.

    The opposite view in this regard puts so much at stake that of course I will come out hard. It is about our countries core values and the human rights around the world. Why would I not be protective about that? This is more than just money.
  7. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    #157 Laurent75, Aug 13, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
    DRB witout any disrespect I still think that you follow blindly some statistics.

    This is so fake to me. What do they exactly consider to be muslims ? They asked everybody ? First let's take Iran. I talked with so many iranians who are against Islam. Iran was a zoroastrian country before the revolution and Islam came in 1979, and many people reject Islam in general, even if the sharia is applied there. 99 % of muslims is a joke. They have a significant christian armenian community as well (about 500 000), it's obviously not 99%.

    Then all the ex soviet republics (Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kygzystan), the same. big joke. They don't even wear the classic veil there, and everyone drinks alcohol.

    If you consider a muslim to be a muslim just because he lives in a traditionnal muslim country , then you have >80% of christians in almost every european country as well.

    You have to know that the daily prayer is an obliged act in Islam , it belongs to the 5 pillars of faith, if you don't do that regularly, you can't really consider yourself muslim. It's as simple as that. So when they put Morocco at 99,9%...Not more than 50% of people pray there.

    Useless statistics to be honest. Don't know how they got them, they probably just checked how many foreigners live in those countries and considered all the rest to be muslims.

    This isn't true. First it obviously wanna prove that muslims chased jews but they put Ethiopia in the package, it's a christian country, and they have an ethiopian jewish commauty (called beta), they are approximativly 4000 in Ethiopia (and about 150 000 in Israel...) but the state doesn't wanna recognize them, the number of 100 is definitly false, or it reprezents only the white jews living there.
  8. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:

    This is what a discussion should look like. About the evidence and claims. Good to have you back on board.

    That being said.... :D;)

    You shoot some little holes in the data, but then go overboard with the conclusion. Like, I can disprove some of this, so it is all wrong. The article can also be read as measures to not let Islam spin out of control again. Bit if Ataturk measures to keep things contained as apparently something needs to be contained.

    Pew is actually quite a reputable:
    You can also ask Orange14, I think he might confirm that these are not jokers. Gallup is also a good one IIRC.

    I like you bring to my attention a test to see how Muslim people are, to use something as prayer. However are we allowed to say they are not Muslim? People must have answered with yes when asked. I have also helped an atheist from Morocco, who after coming out on Facebook got death threats and wanted to leave the country as it got serious. That is indicative for me. I am sure that I as a western atheist could walk free and say a lot, I am just saying that this Moroccan atheist could not and I am willing to go through my posts in the past to see if I can find it, if you like such a thing.

    However this 50% stat of yours is personal observation? Is it based on a rapport? A fact that shocked me concerning Germany, France and Netherlands is that 60% of the Turks voted for Erdogan.

    Regarding the Jew thing, well, there was even a problem in Belgium or here in the Netherlands that a Jewish school could not get a insurance company as they were not prepared to take the risk IIRC. That is Europe 2015. Quite frankly, I would not want to be a Jew in a Muslim country. I have heard your story about Jews in Morocco, but generally speaking, I would leave too. Indonesia this week did not allow a Jewish badminton player into the country.

    The problem is not that all Muslims are against Jews, it is that there are crazies in society and it only takes a few. In many Muslim countries there are more than a few Muslim crazies.

    Just out of interest (small side step here), do you accept the evolution theory?

    I will maybe touch on this post more tomorrow and I maybe have more stats.
  9. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Yes, Pew are reputable; I have several friends who work there but not on this project.

    One can be Muslim, Jewish, or Christian and not follow all of the religious laws! The Catholic church is against birth control but in the US, 70% (maybe more) of Catholic women use some form of birth control.

    I have commented in the past about divergence within the Jewish religion (I'm Jewish but don't believe in God). I also sang in a Church of England boys choir when I was young because I had a good friend who belonged to the church and invited me. My mother said it would be fine but when they pass around the crackers, don't take one. Do all Muslims follow every single precept in the Koran? Of course not.

    One of my former neighbors worked for the World Bank and traveled a lot in Muslim countries on missions. Iran was also one of his mission countries before he retired (he worked in Iran from 1995-2000) and he told me interesting stories of how most of the people disliked the mullahs and wanted western culture. There are lots of satellite TV dishes that pirate western television feeds!!!

    My take on the key issue is that there are a lot of crazy fundamentalists in every religion. Some are innocent and others are killers (maybe the 72 Virgin prophecy is just too powerful; but what is the promise to female terrorists?).
  10. Well, mister Geertje Koekepeertje also speaks about our core values from the Christian Judaic tradition....I say about that: Ja, de Joden kunnen er over meepraten, maar sinds het concilie van Nicea around 300 AD hebben 10miljoen Joden het niet kunnen navertellen (= : Yes the Jews can have a talk about that too, but since Nicea 300 AD, 10million Jews were silenced).
    In that respect your target has a lot catching up to do....

    With people with the opposite view I ment those, who donot share your tendency to generalize a perceived fanatical way of thinking and acting to the world wide community.
    I donot defend those psychopats thoughts and acts and donot think they have the liberty to do so. But that goes too for their companions in evil in the other Abrahamistic believes like the burning of a child and the Pentecost followers that said to me that God in the Bilble condemned the Filistines to be exterminated, so it is alright what happens to them as it is Gods will. You posted about the difference in person of the main figures in the two believes, where you put Jesus as the benign figure head against the evil one. Well, if you would take the time to listen to the Scholars that studied the life and the sources about this evil one, you would get a totally different picture from the one depicted by the hatred clerics and the like who use lies for their purposes of hate.
    But as I said before, it matters what people themselves do, not what other people say their figurehead orders them to do.
    Buddah is a benign person, with a peaceful message, but it is of no importance what Buddah was as a person and what his message is to measure deeds of followers. Not so long ago I saw those monks beat people from a muslim minority in Birma to death with a hatred that matches that of those you attack. But it would be wrong if I followed your way of thinking and condemn the whole Buddist following for the hatred interpretation of those monks.

    Oh, and to show how creative believers can get to bend the rules:
    some time ago there was a programm on the BBC about a cook that travelled the Mediterranean countries to experience their cooking and tasts. One country he visited was Turkey and after a while he visited a mountainous region. He got invited by locals to come with them to hunt. So they went into the mountains and at the camp fire he asked them what they were going to hunt. The answer baffled him, swines. But you are Muslims, arenot you? he said. Yes they said. But isnot it forbidden for you to eat pigs? Yes, they answered. But swines are pigs, he said. Nooo, the hunters reacted, swines arenot pigs, that are totally different animals.
  11. A few years ago on Dutch television was a prgramm about a Dutch musical group with those instruments they use for instance in tango, we call them accordeon. This group of musicians were on a road trip to see how far they could get making music. So they went through Europe, the Balkan, Turkey and entered Iran. They had a lot of fun overthere and played their music for those people. At a given moment they had a camp fire and many locals jioned them and at a given moment they began to play songs like Hava nagila hava etcetera and those locals had great fun singing along those Jiddisch songs. The mullahs would have gotten a heart attack f they were there.
  12. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    #162 Laurent75, Aug 13, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
    If they post something saying that 1,1billion of muslims wants sharia to rule while they didn't even ask me or asked my family, I can only believe they are jokers :D
    How do they ask people ? By e-mail, on the street ? How do they know who is muslim and who isn't ? Any statistic about something as complicated as religion is uninteresting for me. It's not like asking people if they prefer apple pie or meat (I know your answer), it's asking them about their belonging to a group where there are rules, different structures etc.
    You can have the faith to be muslim or jewish but does it mean that you are one ? If yes, according to whom ? Talking religion is just a big waste of time.

    As I said, I was raised in the muslim tradition but I stopped believing after. I still have many muslim friends, cousins around me and they know about it. I talk openly about it, we argue, debate etc. no one wants to kill me or attack me though. I even debated about it in Morocco without having any problem. People can find it strange of course, you would have to be careful with the words you use, but no one will kill attack you for that. Of course speaking about it too openly like on facebook would make you problems, it was the same in the western societies like 50 years ago, wasn't it ? We all know that muslim countries have less religious freedom than western ones, nothing new.
    It doesn't make everything to be as dark and bad as your statistics want to show.

    Just a personnal estimation, most of people from north africa don't pray and aren't that pious in general. The subsaharian african and arabs from the middle east are more.

    Most of muslim countries don't allow israelian citizens on their territory, not jews in general. There are obvious tensions between muslims and jews now because of the israelien conflict, so yes, better not to live in a muslim country for a jew.

    The thing you posted above wasn't meaningful though, there were more jews who left europe after 1950 than jews who left muslim countries. About 2,2 million left europe, and about 700 000 left muslim countries. And most of them left to accomplish their aliyah, there were some persecutions against them in muslim countries indeed, but seriously, what was it next to what happened to them in europe ? How can someone post such a thing to prove that it's impossible for jews to live in muslim countries while europeans killed millions of them a few decades earlier ?

    It's what disturbs me a bit about you my friend, you would jump on the opportunity to show us that an individual used the Islam to do something bad, but why wouldn't you talk about the opposite ? Bush went to bomb Iraq in the name of Jesus, isn't it 100000 times more meaningful than Mohamed Merah killing 5 jews using the name of Allah ? The president of the most powerful nation on this planet against a poor street thug...
    If you look through the History, christians still have a laaaaarge advance on muslims when it comes to using religion to justify some horrible actions. Colonization, slavery, crusades...
    Of course the Christianity and the view on freedom of religion has evolved more in the Western world than in muslim countries, and that came at the time where westerners discovered material prosperity. The most a country is prosperous, rich and educated, the less people believe/practice religion.
    I posted something few months ago saying that I don't believe Islam will expand in the next century, I see many countries where it can disappear.

    Now the only thing to do is to wait for that, without reading the anti Islam propaganda and orientated statistics that you can find everywhere on the web and which just creates hatred.
  13. DSC05

    DSC05 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Detroit, MI
    I do think this thread has run it's course, religion isn't a topic a lot of people feel comfortable talking about and I am one of those. I've left this open because I thought I was just being overly sensitive, but now I am not so sure. I'll let everyone make their last few points, then it's curtains.
  14. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Well, I can't work with that. I am not going to put a lot of energy into a thread where I have to circumvent talking about a dimension that is at the core of this issue. I will take this discussion to a forum where I can discuss everything I want. Laurent (I might PM you, to address some points you made) and Orange14 kept me interested to invest in this thread.
  15. bunbohue

    bunbohue Member

    Apr 5, 2005
    Sorry, I couldn't help to ask. Why is there this thread? If there is, I cannot see any football discussion. In my humble opinion, the players can choose whatever country they want to represent. Who are the players that is worth to talk about in this thread? There are many players doing this in the history of football. However, the country so far receives the big impact/benefits is France who is lucky to have Zidane, Trezeguet, Djorkaeff, Makelele, Cisse, Pires, Evra, Desailly, Viera. If you count Suriname then Netherlands is right up there with Gullit, Rijkaard, Seedorf, Davids, Kluivert, Winter, Vanenberg, Hasselbaink, Reizinger, Borgarde, van Hoojdonk, Nigel De Jong (I'm going to skip Elia, Babel, Urby, Drenthe and others). Unless we have a game changer with another heritage (Messi, Ronaldo, Robben type) I do not think the impact will be worth to discuss. At the end, this is a soccer forum, isn't it? Religious is a very sensitive topic. I respect religions but many times I wonder if the world is a better place without religion like John Lennon imagined.
  16. Keko

    Keko Member

    Jul 17, 2014
    It's official now. Ziyech is going to represent Morocco NT . I wouldn't blame this guy because he has been clearly overlooked by KNVB, and I'm not talking just about these past few months, actually the first time he wore an oranje jersey was to play for U23. If I'm not mistaken he had never been selected to play any oranje game between U15-U19.

    Anyway, at this point you can very well say that working for the Moroccan FA must be one of the easiest and simple jobs there are. The guys over there don't need to do a thing other than "fishing at somebody else's pools".
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    I hope this leeching traitor and his family parasites fail big time. He doesn't deserve success.
    Maybe they should sign a legally binding contract at the age of 10 or so. That prevents senseless investments.
  18. gabriel_guilarte

    Aug 16, 2014
    AFC Ajax
    yes, but I believe is mainly KNVB mistake to let Ziyech go, We should have played him sooner. Its really a shame, he is very creative and a good player I think, he is better than his "competitors" Klaassen, Wijnaldum, etc.
  19. It speaks volumes about the capabilities of those that choose Klaassen and Wijnaldum over him.
  20. Keko

    Keko Member

    Jul 17, 2014
    ‘Onze bond heeft inmiddels ook alle voetballers in Nederland op de radar’

    This is getting ridiculous. At this rate the Moroccan FA is going to take place in Dutch soil.
  21. thatkid

    thatkid Member

    Jun 21, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    They already have a good network France and Belgium.. I expect them to become more aggressive in Holland as well in the future. They'll make war for Nouri and Ould Chikh once they start showing their potential as well.. As long as FIFA let's this happen they'll get stronger and no one co do anything about it. I doubt they will do anything about it, this creates drama and FIFA loves drama. Also, this is mostly a European problem and we already know what the old man at FIFA thinks of European FAs.

    Btw, I doubt Zyech can go to Morocco next month, he'll need to the paper work first, that will take some time... Fifa HAS made things a little harder, I appreciate that.
    Keko repped this.
  22. Simmer

    Simmer Member

    Oct 23, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    I don't mind we missed out on Ziyech.

    I want players who will choose 100% for the Orange shirt.
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
  24. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    Tighadouini is doing well with Malaga, another dutch/moroccan that Holland could have but let to go.

    It's funny how the dutch FA isn't even making any effort anymore to convince those bi national players, in France you have Sofian Bouffal who is a talent at Lille, he is french/moroccan and received an invitation from the moroccan federation but he said he would need time to think about it.

    Amrabat, Tighadouini, Ziyech and even Labyad ...4 players born in Holland that could be NT material.
  25. Rinus127

    Rinus127 Member

    Sep 8, 2015
    AFC Ajax
    The guys who work at the KNVB are stupid and incompetent. We need someone like Oliver Bierhoff . Spaniards and Germans have no scrupuler to call a player to prevent him from joining another selection . Karim Bellarabi and Mounir El Haddadi are recent examples.
    I do not understand , to cite one case, why Cheikh Touré is not selected in the U17 team while with Chong and Vente , he is one of the best players of his class at Feyenoord .
    I saw an interview with Ziyech published by the Moroccan Football Federation . The kid speaks neither Arabic nor French . He spoke in English. If he opted for Morocco, it is because the national selectors underestimated him .

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