Duals

Discussion in 'Referee' started by socal lurker, Sep 13, 2021.

  1. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    So, I’m going to take the plunge and do some high school this year, so I’m looking at the rules () book and the description of the dual system. (First whine: they really put dual before diagonal!) I find the drafting makes IFAB look like Hemingway. One should be able to draw a line between the two officials and the ball “at any time”? WTF? The T is supposed to be even with the GK when he’s holding the ball?!?!? Which of course contradicts everything else in the section!?! And I’m still trying to figure out how the trail ref will sometimes have to become the lead and rule on goal line plays on the right? Sigh. Are there any good resources on duals that make sense? (I did dual games 30+ years ago, but we were essentially doing the “two ARs with whistles” version, which is obviously not the way to do it properly.
     
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  2. SA14mars

    SA14mars Member+

    Jan 3, 2005
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    simpler - lead monitors offside by staying even with first attacker, trail takes a more normal position and watches most of play
     
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  3. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    "Right" in this context refers not to the right side of the field but the official's right-hand *END* of the field, i.e. "your" goal line. So this is a wind-bag way of saying, if you are trail and there's a quick counter, get on your horse and get thee to the goal line.

    Once you do a couple duals the language will (might) make more sense. Thanks for doing HS this year!
     
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  4. Barciur

    Barciur Member

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    It's not? :eek:





    :p
     
  5. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    While I understand that in some parts, a dual is "Lead acts like an AR, even with the second last defender/ball, on the field but generally as wide as the widest player; Trail acts like a CR and takes and appropriate position. When possession changes, Switch. You're now grossly out of position, so hustle to get back/up as appropriate."

    Here, we generally keep play boxed between the two refs. Lead is more or less as above. Trail stays farther back, in better position in case of turnover/counter. Lead can push up if play allows, and generally always pushes up on set plays in the attacking third, but does not generally close in to a classic CR position. Angle over distance, as they say.

    In both methods, the trail should call most fouls (since the lead has to pay at least some attention to offside).

    The former gives you better angles, and more credibility since the trail is closer to play. It also means that you can't possibly make a close OS or goal line call on a counter, unless you're a lot faster than the players.

    The latter gives you better coverage on a counter, and means that the refs don't need to run as far or as fast.
     
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  6. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Some other tips I use working duals.
    • I usually stay somewhat even to the last attacker when I'm the trail. I'll deviate from that in certain circumstances, but I find that at least gives me a fighting chance to get back to the offside line when I transition from trail to lead.
    • In normal play, I usually don't come any farther into the field than the football hashmarks. Any closer to the opposite touchline, and I don't have a shot at getting to the sideline. This also gives me a chance to also see some action in what would traditionally be in my quadrant.
    • On a set piece (corner, free kick), the deepest I will usually get is the 25 yard line if I'm on a football field. If it's late in the game, I'll take a more normal CR position
    There is no good dual system - only mechanics to make things less bad. The thing is to recognize what the critical call is most likely to be in a given situation, be in a position to make that call, and accept that you'll be out of position in other circumstances. Good luck!
     
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  7. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member+

    Oct 10, 2011
    Arkansas
    Heresy alert!

    If you are working with a partner you know and trust, refereeing in a dual can be fun.

    No it's not as good as the DSC for all the reasons you've heard, and you shouldn't do it on a USSF game, but it is much more enjoyable than an AR on a lopsided match. Don't be locked in to your end of the field, and do be willing (and able) to sprint when the ball changes direction. As the lead, line up with the forward-most attacker rather than the second-to-last defender to give yourself head start in transition. Don't be locked to your touchline, but resist the urge to get so close to the middle that you lose track of players behind you.

    It's not thaaaat bad. Enjoy.
     
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  8. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  9. Spencedawgmillionaire

    Mar 2, 2017
    Belleville, ILLLLLLLLINOIZE
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    YAY H.S.!

    I've done a mountain of H.S. the past several years, and I love it. But you ain't wrong about that terrible rule book. I just tested to promote to "Certified" in my State for fun and failed by one question. Every single question I missed was either really poorly worded, or caught me out with wording.

    "B1 passes the ball back to A1, the GK, who dribbles into the PA and picks up the ball." Caught me out with the word "pass", B1 didn't PASS it to him, he kicked it at him...etc... Awful rules book, just awful, and the APP is even worse.


    An assessor once told me on a dual; "pinch in as far as you're comfortable, and go as far into the other half as you want, as long as you're not behind the forward most attacker...as long as you feel like you have the horses to keep up on a counter, you're good."

    I'll add that I don't always stay as wide as the widest player, and that's ok. Assessor also told me you can get mixed in with them, just pay attention.

    In my experience in duals (which has been a lot in the past 5 years), nobody has ever been upset about me being in the middle of players and still calling an offside to my right.
     
  10. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    Afterall, they all can see it perfectly from their angle, why not you from yours?
     
  11. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The problem is that the vast majority of referees I know and trust don't do high school anymore, because of having to do too many duals with people who don't know how to ref.
     
  12. voiceoflg

    voiceoflg Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    Be honest. How many of you will NOT go past the midline when you are the trail? Not "can not." "Will not."
     
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  13. swoot

    swoot Member

    Feb 28, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Radios help in the dual system.
     
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  14. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Of course this has a lot to do with how I will approach what I do during the game such as how far to push up or push into the center.

    And practice saying "He had a different angle and saw it differently" when I'm on the team bench side of the field.
     
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  15. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The more I do the dual system this year the more I realize how much I hate it! I had a high school boys game the other day. Early in the second half, a blue player fouls a white player. From my position, I saw the player go down but I couldn’t see how the foul was committed. I did caution the player that committed the foul, and called the white coach on to attend to his injured player. He starts complaining that it should have been a red based on how the foul was committed. I went to talk to my partner but he was blocked by several players on both teams because of his position. The just feel that if it had been in the diagonal system I could have gotten a better look at the foul.

    Sorry for the rant, but I do have a question. If my partner were able to confirm the foul was “red card” quality, how does one signal the change from a yellow to a red card without looking like you are giving a second card to the same player? I know that it would have to be done prior to the restart of play.
     
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  16. MJ91

    MJ91 Member

    United States
    Jan 14, 2019
    i'd say As Seen on TV when a CR changes the card... go to proximity of the player, show the original (YC) with one hand (maybe not as high as when issuing one) while moving the other hand palm down back and forth (like a one-armed incomplete pass signal in American football), then show the corrected on (RC).

    I'm just guessing, haven't dug through the rules book for an official procedure.
     
  17. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I don't think there is an "official" signal to withdraw a card. Holding the card while waving it off like an incomplete pass makes sense. But most importantly, tell the player so he knows (and in HS, tell the coach).

    I just learned that the HS association I just joined is doing only duals, even for varsity, in the immediate term due to lack of officials.
     
  18. Gary V

    Gary V Member+

    Feb 4, 2003
    SE Mich.
    Make the rectangle symbol as if the VAR had ruled. :p:rolleyes:
     
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  19. Thegreatwar

    Thegreatwar Member

    May 28, 2015
    New England
    A few days ago in a boys varsity game I saw a rake on the shin (with studs) go uncalled because at least one, and probably both refs were screened. Having to look across/through so many players (without the freedom to run to where you can see) is a real problem.
     
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  20. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I had a U19G rec game yesterday with one AR who I have worked many games with over the last 20 years. One of the parents commented that this was their first game with a real referee. I would have loved to do a dual with the AR, but not allowed! So I recruited a 13 year old kid to hold a flag and raise it when the ball went over the touchline. The game was still easy, but I didn't feel good with the lack of position on offside calls - I only made one call.
    He did such a good job the first half, I gave him lesson 2: point the direction of the team that didn't touch it last. He did that pretty well, tool. I still would have preferred a dual!
     
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  21. Gary V

    Gary V Member+

    Feb 4, 2003
    SE Mich.
    ^ Did you give him info on where the next ref class would be?
     
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  22. DefRef

    DefRef Member

    Jul 3, 2017
    Storrs CT
    I do tend to pinch in a LOT, but only when there is no one behind my back. And I back peddle like a mad man to keep everyone in front of me. I would say that in 12 HS games so far this season, only twice has a kid gotten behind me.

    I find that if I have to turn, I lose my sense of orientation to the play. And now my partner and I are both facing in the same general direction, which means large section of the field is un watched.

    The flip side of this is the refs who stay glued to the touchline and purposely stay as much as 30-40 yards from the play. Drives me crazy...
     
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  23. Vinnydabody

    Vinnydabody Member

    Jun 10, 2014
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Referee supply has apparently gotten bad enough this fall in these parts that Junior State Cup games are now INTENTIONALLY being assigned dual crews instead of a center and two ARs. I did one yesterday (11U 9v9); it worked OK, but I still felt kind of dirty about it.
     
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  24. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't know anything about the next ref class, but I told him that 12 year old refs get paid for doing u-little games. He and mom sounded interested.
     
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  25. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    This just in from PA West: you gotta be 14, not just in order to ref, but at the time you sign up for a class.
     
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