Under Bob Bradley, the US moved the ball by and large up the flanks for the cross for our guys in the box. It would go, one of our sixes, to a striker or wing player to our overlapping defender in for a cross, dempsey or altidore or ching or casey in the box. It took time for Bob to realize that Dempsey finishing was probably better than Dempsey sitting back. JK, on the other hand wants to play a 4-2-3-1 but what ends up happening is our most clinical finishers are trying to assist players who can't rattle the cage. It is ponderous to watch the US have 7 or 8 men upfield and have no idea how to break down a defense. With Bob you rarely had more than 5 but they knew what they were about: finish the chance or retreat to fight another day. So it begs the question, do we use Dempsey to play the ball down the middle for Edu/Bradley/Williams/Shea to fumble away or do we use a combination of FJ, Dolo, Donovan to whip the ball in to the box for Dempsey and Altidore to finish? When we crowd the midfield with the 3 or 4 CM/DM imposters AND try to move the RB and LB up to overlap it leaves us entirely vulnerable to the counter and yet the RB/LB cross has proven to be very effective. My conclusion is that unless Torres/Feilhaber/Edu/Bradely learn to play the ball to the feet of Dempsey/Donovan/Altidore and create the chance, we are not taking full advantage of our strengths. The Beglium friendly is one of the most frustrating USMNT matches I have ever seen because we did so many good things and so many stupid things simultaneously that you got the feeling there was one really, really smart guy pulling the strings one way and another out to lunch. The spacing on offense was idiotic, but the defending and central passing was good. This is a long way to get to the point: Do we use Dempsey to set up players as CM or do we use him to finish the very few chances our other players provide him?
Thing is Fabian prefers playing centrally, and when watching him it seems his natural instinct is to cut inside rather than stay wide and send in crosses, and I'd even say one of his strengths are setting guys up through the center of the pitch, where his creativity is on display, whereas I'd say one of his weaknesses is sending in crosses. If Brek gets over his turf toe and gets back to his form of a year ago(which I think he was starting to up until the injury, and getting his energy back, but is somewhat hidden given the shit he's playing with at FCD), imo he's our best crosser from the left, prefers playing wide, and was responsible for most of our scoring opportunities through JK's first 7 games in large part because of that. But he can't really cut inside, doesn't have much of a right foot and isn't creative centrally, so I think if you play Brek at LW you're sacrificing creativity centrally, while if we play Fabian at LW, we have improved creativity and the ability to set others up centrally, but lose out on crossing from the left and spreading the pitch. You bring up Torres/Feilhaber/Edu/Bradely needing to play the ball to the feet of Jozy/Clint, and without that we're not maximizing our talent, which I agree on, but I also think Fabian can excel at just that, and definitely moreso than Torres/Benny/Edu. I don't want Edu on the pitch, and Torres/Benny are too soft going the other way for my liking. I'd like JK to sit Beckermans ass for a little while, and try MB at the 6 with Fabian at the 8. I'm leaning towards Clint at the 10 as he's somewhat excelled there under JK, and if he had Fabian just behind and connecting with him, instead of Edu, he'd also be on the receiving end of better thru balls in threatening areas. But it's guess work right now, and well know much more in a couple weeks about JK's formations. I wouldn't say he's committed to a 4-2-3-1 at this point as he changes it up every few games. For all we know he comes out with 2 strikers given the WCQ games mean something. We also don't know what he'll do with LD. Then the Chandler situation kills us. If Castillo replaces him, we're F'd. We better be hearing Lichaj's name this weekend in the 2nd wave of additions. Now Lichaj can overlap and send in crosses, so that helps. I tend to think if for some reason JK decides to go with Castillo at LB, Fabian is the better option on the wing, whereas if Lichaj is the LB, I'd be more comfortable with Brek playing wide and take advantage of Fabian centrally. At this point I don't even know if JK will come out with a diamond. Kind of rambling here, as they're so many questions and we don't have anything recent to really go on. Only good news is we'll have some answers in near future.
Fabian as an 8? Interesting, but unlikely considering Jones/Bradley. He's most likely the LB, but LW is certainly a position up for grabs. I'm still hopeful about Adu becoming the LW. If Lichaj or Castillo becomes a quality LB (big IF), that could push Fabian up to LW, but his performances at LB against Italy and for Hoffenheim suggest he could be the LB for 2 world cups, with hopefully Adu or Shea progressing into a decent LW.
He's saying with all likelihood Klinsie will run out 3 dmids, behind Donovan, Dempsey and Altidore then we definitely need the backs to push up. France did this during their run under Zidane and it made for some really boring matches until the final 5 minutes where they seemed to win them all. It also means if we get the early goal, unlike with Bob where it was the early goal against, we might be able to posses the ball and not give up the lead. I find it pretty entertaining that Klinsie 'the attacker' is taking the most conservative elements of French and Italian soccer and incorporating them. I wish we would learn to pressure the ball better on the wings and our coaches would unlearn the application of the high defensive line since we have no foot speed at CB. To those that say no Edu, you really need to review the tapes. We just dont give up goals when he is on the pitch. He was the 'better' CM in the first half against Italy, for example. He has not gotten better in 4 years though, which is worrying. 4321 Lichaj---------somedude------boca--------FJ----- ------WIlliams----------Edu-----------Bradley -----------Donovan-------------Dempsey--------- ------------------------Altidore When we go 4-4-2, we give up goals, so we darn well better have our scoring boots on.
Dolo--------Goodson-----Boca-----Lichaj-- -----------Bradley---Edu----Fabian--------- -----------Dono------Jozy----Dempsey------ Lichaj and Fabian would have to learn to play together because one of them would be acting RW. I agree about Edu. He is very good as the "3rd" CB. The only problem is that often the deepest DM (Edu) is the one player who gets space to run up the middle because the others are marked first. Can Edu do that and deliver the ball where it should go at the appropriate time when the field moves and then track back quickly? If his pass is errant, suddenly there is no deep mid and somebody picks up a yellow card, like Boca had to do when Becks lost the ball up field (against Belgium? Slovenia?). If we put Bradley in the central position, we lose some of his offense but we could do it.
Ok If the question is attack down the flanks or up the middle my answer is both. The 4-3-2-1 is most conducive to that goal and our personnel. I'd play Johnson at LCM, as the most advanced of the three, and then Jones at RCM and Bradley at DCM (but they will switch roles depending on where space is and the shape of play). Johnson would shuttle between a LCM role and a LM role, he will make runs through the space Dempsey (and Donovan) opens up with his left to right runs. Our two AMs will have freedom to float all over the field with Landon tending to operate, naturally, a little more in the wider channels where there is space, and Dempsey dropping inside to pick up the ball and getting into the box behind Jozy. Look at the Italy goal, Jozy gets the ball in the center of the box, Dempsey makes a left to right run in behind him.
I think FJ is pretty much locked down the LB spot. If we're going to play one dedicated DM, I guess I have to go with Jones, though I wish he'd take it easy on the yellow cards. -----------------------Jones--------------------- ------Edu-----------------------------Bradely----------- -----------Donovan------------Dempsey-------- ---------------------Altidore-------------------
Ok I guess my problem is relying on three DM's to provide creativity in the middle of the field. Yes it makes us hard to beat or break down defensively, but their is a definite tradeoff offensively. In this scheme the ball is going to be shuttled out to the wings by Bradley. That's not a bad idea, but it essentially leaves us with only 3 attacking players and relies on those 3 to produce the goals. Maybe Jones gets forward and makes runs into the box, but I wouldn't label Jones a goalscorer. I could be wrong. I didn't get to watch the Bundesliga very much this season. I'd like to see a 4th player with creativity on the field to make those runs forward. That means dropping Edu for somebody who plies their trade as more of a runner than a defensive midfielder. I am concerned about Klinsmann's reliance on three defensive midfielders. I'd rather have us playing more like the Germans than the Italians.
I would be curious to see the X-mas tree, with both Donovan and Dempsey playing under Altidore. It might maximize the best roles for those two, while also giving JK his "passion" for using 3 DMs/CMs. Plus, we have a roster that is stocked with CMs but may end up low on classic wingers, once again. And, for those who like Corona and Adu, the X-mas tree provides both a logical sub role. Having said that, I still prefer the 4-4-1-1, using Donovan at RM and Dempsey under Altidore. But the X-mas tree is an interesting alternative.
I think Castillo was selected not primarily as a LB but as someone who will be given the opportuntiy to seize the LW position. It would not suprise me to see JK experimenting with both of them on at the same time. Castillo is not without attacking skill. Johnson is the better defender, even though he's only average at best. Lichaj needs to be called in because he can play RB as well.
Without Johnson (or Holden or Torres or a Feilhaber type) in the CM this formation is only as dynamic as its front 3. The thing is our front 3 is pretty damn dynamic. The 3 CMs behind them allow them to be as free to attack and float as possible. Johnson is playing a hybrid role between a wide-midfielder and a two-way mid so he becomes the forth attacker, Dolo is 5th, then two of Bradley/Jones/LB are 6th and 7th. Against a weaker team it would look like a 4-2-3-1 with Johnson spending a lot of time in the final third. The reason why I'd want Bradley and Jones trading off their roles (between two-way and defensive) is that Mike is so great at making runs into the box but he's also a bit more temperamentally disciplined to accept playing more often as the DM. The only major tactical change between my 4-2-3-1 and the 4-4-2 diamond we saw in the win against Slovenia would be to replace Buddle with Donovan and push Clint a tiny bit higher.
I'm not clear if this a knock against the 4-2-3-1 or a knock against the way JK plays it. In any case it is not true. Dempsey has been receiving the chances. He has not been creating any for others. The way this is stated your preference is clear, unfortunately it is just another strawman. The majority of chances created during the JK tenure have come from the wide players with Shea, Chandler, and Dolo leading in that category. JK kas stated that the attack is supposed to come from the wide AMs, at speed. This time around more chances comes from the left side likely due in large part to the absence of LD for 6 of the 8 A team matches. In the BB era the chances were created from the right with LD and Dolo leading that stat. Dempsey did not create many chances or even many crosses during his time at LM for BB. Dempsey is a poor crosser of the ball. His strenght is second ball finishing. He does not create many chances for others in his #10 role. He is still primarily a deadly second ball finisher.
What about a Napoli type 3-4-3? ---------------------Altidore--------------------- --------Dempsey----------------Donovan------- Johnson-----------------------------Chandler'Dolo ----------------Bradley------Jones------------------ ----Bocanegra-------Onyewu---------Williams---- In this system, you don't need an #8. With Holden, you can play a formation that demands an #8. As things stand, however, one could find something that fits the talent on hand. Otherwise, wingbacks can advance it up the flanks and the top US scorers can convert their dribbles and crosses while being situated closer to the goal. PS. Bradley isn't an #8 but one could play him in Bob's 4-4-2 as a "6 1/2" against teams like Brazil.
Agreed. The point is that we were not gwtting many crosses in from the left side from Dempsey or the LB de jour.
Dempsey isn't particularly creative. Dempsey gets on the end of things like only a few players in the world can. Let Donovan provide the final ball, Bradley and Jones and the fullbacks the build-up.
He can be creative but ... it's not his best attribute on the whole. As Darke and McMananananananananananaman pointed out in a recent Fulham telecast, he is a great lurker. Let him lurk. BTW, of my 3-4-3, I might even move Donovan to a wingback position instead of Dolo and play Herc as an inside right forward. In terms of scoring, Gomez, Dempsey and Altidore are 1-2-3 on this squad. Donovan isn't. Let him serve cake.
When Dempsey is surrounded by football players, he delivers field splitting assist. His drop offs to AJ, Duff, Ruiz and Dembele have been sometimes incredible. His problem when playing the US and this happened at a maddening rate against Honduras and Belgium: ---X------x-----x----x-----x Shea----Jozy----Edu---Rogers Dempsey Dempsey would hold the ball...and wait. And Wait. And Wait. No one made a run. This happened over and over again in these two matches. Reverse that situation and put Feilhaber or Adu on the ball and replace Edu or Rogers with Dempsey and they will chip or try the feet because Dempsey will make that smart attacking run for them. This is what I mean, if we make dempsey the Zidane and drop him under the strikers, a winger, and an overlapping fullback then they have to make the correct run for him. Donovan CAN make that run, but if he isnt in the right frame of mind, he will tip-toe along sometimes. Personally I think Donovan is due some incredible moments as he has been recovering and resting. And my point with up the flanks was not to put Dempsey on the wing, he never played that for the US, he cut in and went wide to the fullback for the cross, but if we want to play possession ball we are going to have to learn how to attack right down the middle.
It's tough not to like this formation, my only two worries are that Bradley and Jones dont get back on defense fast enough to take out the cutback cross which will definitely come if our wings are exposed and the long ball on the ground that puts Onyewu/bocanegra in a footrace with Ibrahimovitch or gervinho or really and B to A level striker. The Dolo position is tailor made for Frankie in his day.
Really great discussion in here guys - I'd like to keep it up after we see the formations that Jurgen actually trots out. Kudos to the posters in here.