How is it that Dortmund could be in so much debt when they regularly draw 70,000+ to all their matches (according to fox sports world report)? Maybe they need to charge a little more? what is their admission price anyway?
That's a great question. One of the conclusions that I've come to in regards to Leeds was that the bulk of the problem had nothing to do with transfers. It was a bit player wages but much more just corporate bloat. I wouldn't be suprised to see something similar happening at Dortmund. Although shelling out 15 million for Amoruso and then letting him go 2 years later (do I have these details right?) doesn't help.
BVB was on a risky way since years (in fact since 1992 when they signed Reuter from Juventus Turin). Till 1997 when we won the Champions League everything went fine but from that moment on stupid transfers and BIG wages lead to debts. Even the IPO in 2000 wasn't enough to get rid of the debts as the fresh money was "invested" into players (signings in summer 2001: Rosicky 14,5 Mio euro, Koller 10,5 Mio euro, Amoroso 21 Mio euro -> BVB's misfortune was that they bought when the transfer fees were on a high, shortly after the prices dropped next to zero). With missing out on the Champions League last summer the officials had to pull the emergency break. Since then several players with no chance of getting playtime but with big wages left the club (Reina, Fernandez etc.) plus some retired (Reuter, Herrlich). I guess the club will reduce its wage bill (players and officials) by 15 Mio euros next season. Regarding the ticket prices in Dortmund and Germany in general we have moderate prices. In Dortmund's Westfalenstadion there are 25.000 terrace places (in Bundesliga matches) which are sold at about 10 euros per ticket. The remaining 58.000 seats go out for 20-45 euros per ticket (corporate, vip, hospitality tickets are much more expensive of course). Seating plan: http://www.kartenvorverkauf-rupprecht.de/plan.html Comparing this to EPL prices they have average prices of about 45 euro at Highbury (I guess something about 20 euros in Dortmund). So Arsenal makes with half the capacity the same money like Dortmund. Some interesting articles: - http://football.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,4284,1101747,00.html - http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,1563,1076173,00.html
Awesome article by (BVB supporter ;-) Uli Hesse-Lichtenberger: "Cloak and dagger Dortmund": http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=313501&cc=5901
Keith's Response: Here are some of the BONEHEADED TRANSFER MOVES Manoj mentioned. I may not have all of my figures right on the players I'm going to name, but I'm close and no one can dispute this is huge part of the problem. And this isn't even the whole list. Just some names. Thomas Haessler: BVB brought him in on a free transfer. He didn't get along with then coach Michael Skibbe and BVB simply "released" him although he was still under contract and worth at least a three million German Mark (It was before the Euro) transfer fee. BVB essentially "gave" Haessler to 1860 Munich free of charge. Haessler then proceded to outplay most of our midfielders for the next three seasons. Sergej Barbarez: Almost the same deal as Haessler. Barbarez didn't get along with Skibbe and then was treated HORRIBLY by club management. Midway though our horrible 1999-2000 season, when we were nearly relegated, BVB management told Barbarez if he could find a club that would pay 3.5 million German Marks for him at the end of the season, he could go. The problem? Barbarez was worth more than double that amount. At the end of the season, new coach Sammer practically begged Barbarez to stay. Barbarez considered it, but decided dealing with club management wasn't worth it. Big player and money loss. Victor Ikpeba: When BVB bought Victor Ikpeba for over 12 million marks, some of us wondered if they were crazy. Not only had Ikpeba not done squat for over two years in France (He lost his spot at Monaco to some kid named Thierry Henry), he was also dealing with a dying young wife, who was suffering from cancer. The only logical explanation anyone had for that purchase was that BVB General Manager Michael Meier was a huge fan and obviously lost touch with Ikpeba after he won African Player of the Year. Ikpeba scored something like two or three league goals for BVB. When he left the club, BVB got nothing for him. Fredi Bobic: BVB bought him from Stuttgart for close to to 12 million German Marks (Buyout Clause). That was way more than he was worth to begin with. However, Bobic came to Dortmund, worked his a$$ off and became the club's top goal-scoring threat. However, after two seasons, Matthias Sammer and Michael Meier decided to GROSSLY OVERPAY Anderlecht for Jan Koller. Koller is the best player we have now, but that doesn't mean BVB didn't overpay for him. Anyhow, Sammer fell in love with Koller and Marcio Amoroso, and threw Bobic to the scrap heap. Didn't even give Fredi a chance to fight for his job. Sure, we made a bit of money loaning Bobic to Bolton, but when Fredi came back, he still wasn't given a real shot at making the BVB team. Bolton wanted to buy him outright, but BVB said what Bolton were offering (An estimated offer of between two and four million Euros) wasn't enough. BVB wound up selling Bobic to Hannover 96 for HALF A MILLION (500,000) Euros. HOW F'IN STUPID WAS THAT??!!! Christian Nerlinger: Sure, we got him for nothing, but when he left, BVB got an estimated five million Euros for him. Rangers were prepared to pay ten and they said so after they completed the sale. Fans knew it before the deal was done. Somehow BVB management didn't know it. Marcio Amoroso: This is one of the things that basically shook the club's financial foundations. WE WAY OVER PAID FOR HIM!! Good gamble at the time, but many of us then wondered if we didn't pay too much. Not only 40 million Euros, but we also had to hand over the transfer rights to Evanilson, which we've apparently spent close to or just over another 15 million Euros to re-obtain for the useless wingback. We got one good season out of Amoroso, he suffered injuries, didn't get along with Sammer and left for nothing. You do the math on how much we lost on this one. Not completely management's fault, but it does go back around to their absolute STUPIDITY when it comes to the world-wide transfer market. Sunday Oliseh: Before this year, we spent 12 million Euros to bring him back from Juventus. Not a stupid move at all at the time. Yes, it was a bit much, but we needed the player Oliseh HAS THE POTENTIAL to be. We haven't seen that guy yet. My problem was in loaning him to a freakin' local rival for two seasons, where Oliseh DID PLAY like that guy for the most part! My point? Not really one. You just don't spend 12 million on a guy just to loan him to a local rival right afterwards. And the most recent one that burns me up the most.......... Jens Lehmann: Arsenal only ponied up 1.5 million pounds for him. I had GOOD SOURCES who said Arsenal would pay over double (4 million pounds) and still consider it a good deal. Somehow BVB never figured that out. Every little bit counts. However, I think the BIGGEST PROBLEM besides management never planning for "bad times" remains......... THE STADIUM RENOVATIONS!!! My opinion is that Westfalenstadion DID NOT NEED TO BE RENOVATED this quickly. I call it "Arena Envy". Scheisse 05 built their nice, new "Arena auf Scheisse" and BVB management went mad. No matter if Scheisse's stadium is "more modern" or not, it'll never be the "Temple of Football" that Westfalenstadion is!! Scheisse's stadium is an updated version of Texas Stadium outside of Dallas and the Amsterdam Arena. Nothing more. Same lazy architects did all three! It has all the football atmosphere of a freakin plastic bag. But BVB management HAD to renovate Westfalenstadion. They just HAD to outdo Scheisse! It's like Helmut Kohl moving too quickly to re-unify Germany. Had it been done over time, Germany's economy would be in much better shape today. But Kohl overestimated the strength of the West German economy and never prepared for the bad times. Just as BVB management never did. All they knew is they had to have the top stadium in the area. No way could they just let Gelsenkirchen have a World Cup Semi-Final. And if things don't go right, we could have the biggest, best stadium in the 2. Liga or Regionalliga Nord........ Keith
Wow, I knew the ticket prices were high in England but that's outrageous. How could the supporters let this happen? I'd rather have a high capacity with people from all social circles.
Wasn't 60% share of ownership of the stadium sold ? and now they looked to loan to buy it back, again more debt . Shows how stupid their team managers are http://soccer.news.designerz.com/dortmund-considering-loan-to-buy-back-westfalen-stadium.html
Dortmund need to sell the likes of Dede and Rosicky, and perhaps Koller. These guys will have value in the transfer market (there have been inquiries). Then Dortmund need to stop trying to buy so many foreign players, who tend to be over-priced and under performing, and replace them with a solid youth system, which produces players who tend to be under-priced and over performing, and later possibly demand big fees in the transfer market. I'm not suggesting that Dortmund become a total farm club that sells off it's young talent, but I'm saying that they need a better balance between wise buys on the foreign market and a prodigious youth system. In the long run this will lead to better financial health as well as more consistent quality performances on the field. But alas, most Bundesliga teams need to do this. It's just that Dortmund is perhaps one of the worse cases for what's wrong with German soccer right now: Too much spending on mediocre foreign talent, and too little build up of the youth systems.
Like I've said previously, if you're (our wonderful management) bent on selling off your blue chips for the sole intent of saving money, why wait in some of these cases? It's not that I'm against pawning off the players I've come to love, we are where we are and desperate times call for desperate measures. Alas, the timing is what blows my mind. What did Dr. Niebaum say was the reason we sold Torsten after Zorc said he was as important to us as Makaay to BUYern? ". . .they offered us a damned lot of money." Fine. I can live with that. #8 was my favorite Borussen, but again, we are where we are, and I don't care if Rosický and Torsten didn't get along in the mittefeld. Why, oh why didn't we ship Rosický either on the cusp or the heels of Euro 2004?! If what you're after is saving ". . .a damned lot of money," why not maximize that potential? Little Mozart played tremendously in Portugal (opinions differ, admittedly) and has done very, very little thus far this season. He has yet to assist a strike in two and a half years. Look at Koller's alleged going price post-Euro 2004/pre-Bundesliga when Marseilles were after him. Now "striker-short" Liverpool rumors place transfer fees anywhere from 2 to 3 million. I don't understand it. Don't get me wrong, I love Rosický, I'm a big fan of DeDe and I don't want to see the Goal Monster go, even if he hasn't exactly effaced the propensity to finish consistently this season. If I'm Gerd in the middle of Euro 2004, take the 9 for Frings, take the big money for Rosický, keep DeDe and Koller and roll the dice. Kringe has stepped in beautifully and would we be that worse off sans #10?!
Rosicky has under acheived. He has tremendous ability, but goes missing in too many matches. But because of his tremendous ability and high profile, many clubs are interested in him, so he can fetch a hefty transfer fee. Koller's stock is pretty good as well, and again, he's not exactly lighting things up for Borussia. Dede is a tremendous talent, but he too would fetch a huge transfer fee. Bayern have been interested in him (and they need a reliable left back), and Bayern has the bank to do it easily. Real could be another bidder. If BVB can sell these three guys, they would not lose to awful much on the pitch (none of them are having good seasons), and they could clear a bunch of their debt. Now that I'm aboard a damaged ship (see the thread I started about being a new Dortmund fan), I'm anxious to see BVB right their ways. Selling these three players (and bringing up youth players or signing lower profile players from 2. BL or other BL clubs) would be the first major step towards going in the right direction.
I don't think DeDe's had a bad season, and Koller's a big reason why we have the few victories we do. I haven't heard BUYern had an interest in DeDe, just Scheisse and Stuttgart (and yes, I think a couple Spanish clubs).
Why do we need a LB ?? Next year Philip Lahm is back, so no reason to buy any more LB. We have 3 or 4 players can fill in that position. Bayern might need to buy another central defender as Linke and Kovac are likely to leave at the end of this season, and also Scholl wanted to quit as early as this christmas, so an attacking midfield like Rosicky would suit our need.
Not true, Dede was an option last year but because he chose or attempted to play for Qatar, the Bayern board immediately put an end to the speculation by saying they don't need players like that.
he and Torsten don't really like playing together Damn I forgot about Lahm going back to the Pride of Northern Italy, he might be the best young left back in Europe right now
BVB today published their major recapitalisation scheme (named "KON:TER -> counter-attack;-). Till the end of 2005/06 BVB want to present a balanced sheet and from 2006/07 on they want to make profits. BVB's investor relations site has a .pdf-file that shows the overall planing: http://www.borussia-aktie.de/pdf/konter.pdf (German :-/ ) The new programm was mostly set-up by consulting company "Metrum" that is specialised on sports and cultural institutions. Just another dimension of business knowledge compared to Michael Meier and Dr Gerd Niebaum. Absolute professionals. Just some points: - raising revenues (not ticket prices but the overall money that fans spend in and around stadium. While a average day at a EPL stadium costs a fan about 50 EURO, it is only half that money at Bundesliga and BVB) - buying back the stadium with investors that rent it to BVB, thus decreasing the leasing rates of 15 Mio Euro/year that BVB has to pay right now. - talking with banks (debt relief), city of Dortmund (investments needed to meet WC206 standards), sponsors (more money), players (salary cuts) etc. to check whether there are possibilities to decrease debts and increase revenues - Season budget will be based on revenues without European football - decreasing salaries massively - strengthening the scouting and youth department - a new philosophy of topstars and talents (means some top players that contribute to the brand BVB, which is No.2 in Germany and among top10 in Europe IIRC, and many home-grown talents) - Mostly Bosman players that cost no transfer money will be bought - Selling businesses that are not directly connected to the core business (football) like a hotel that BVB own, a software company, a travel agency, 50% of a medical centre, sports equipment company "goool" My opinion: Finally they installed professionals. Had they done so 7 or even 4 years ago, we could have been one of the richest clubs in Europe! Niebaum and Meier wasted just sooooo much money.
Forgot one point: - Dr Niebaum passes on his salary from January to June 2005. Saving us about 550.000 Euro.
I was going to post this myself. It sounds like Borussia is getting it's act together on the business end. Debt restructering, stadium money from outside investors, decreasing costs, decreasing player salaries, sticking to free transfers (good players can be obtained in the free transfer market), and building up the youth system, are all the right things any soccer club needs to do. This is awesome news. I think that my emotional investment of becoming a full Dortmund fan is going to pay off in the long run.
Keith's Response: I thought the same thing. But, it might not make a difference if the team doesn't get it's s#!t together on the pitch!!!
They've got plenty of talent. Worns, Bergdolmo, Kehl, Rosicky, Ricken, Dede, Koller, Ewerton are all top quality players that many teams would love to have. Plus guys like Kringe and Rammel are showing promise. They just need to play like a team, and play to the best of their abilities on a consistent basis. I'm guessing that van Marwijk might be the next BL manager casualty by the winter break if things don't turn around quickly.
Keith's Response: Dude, I hate to be the one to tell you, but Bergdolmo and Ricken are FAR from "QUALITY PLAYERS". Ricken hasn't been a "quality player" since the late '90s. It's the major reason BVB went after Rosicky when we did. Kehl is really just getting his stuff together and another major reason for our failures is that most games Ewerthon and Koller couldn't hit the ocean if they fell off a freakin boat in the middle of it!! This season alone, we've lost AT LEAST seven to ten points due to Koller and Ewerthon's inability to put away "sitters". Dede isn't giving his all this season either. He's as good as gone and he's started to play like it. I actually hope they sell him at the winter break. He isn't doing us much good this season. So far, this is the only season besides 1999-2000 that we've had problems and I can only directly blame the players. I understand that some of them are concerned with the club's problems and that's understandable to a point. However, there also comes a point where you realize that you can make the club's outlook much better by giving your all when you go out there on Saturday. Out of the players you named, only Rosicky and Woerns have given consistently good performances for the team. Well, Koller has always worked hard and had one pretty good stretch this season, but for the most part he and Ewerthon have cost us the points we need to challenge for the top five spots simply by missing opportunities I can honestly say most of, my 14 year old could have put away. As far as the young players go, yes, I'm encouraged by them too. However, as I just told someone on my list, don't be naive enough to think they will all be successful. I'm far from giving up on this team for this season. There's still too much of this season left to play. But they are going to need to get their s#!t together before the winter break.......... Keith
Keith's Response: I don't see where it's any big deal. Just some people finally getting to vent their frustrations at Niebaum and Meier. I've been venting my frustration at them through my BVB list for over five years now. People thought I didn't know what I was talking about as I bashed them over the years. We now see the results. Keith