Don't tell me that the VAR Thread is still going?

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by EruditeHobo, Jun 23, 2019.

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  1. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Neither will I.

    But you're wrong he was shielding the ball which is outlined in the rules very clearly.

    OK for real this time.
     
    usscouse repped this.
  2. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    No he attacked the man. :):)

    Change up but with VAR. Today I thought we'd have two var free games and we almost did. The incident went against your
    "He didn't mean to do it but he's still guilty" Ruling.

    One of the jerries went up to head at goal. The Swedish keeper went to punch clear. Pow! a real haymaker laid the Jerry out.

    After a long break while the seconds worked on the downed girl. And a break while the VAR panel made up their group minds. They gave an 8 count to the Jerry and No pen or red card against the keeper.

    I was happy I was pulling for the Swedes. :)
     
  3. el-capitano

    el-capitano Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 30, 2005
    Sydney
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...LT-VAR-Brexit-football-fans-love-hate-it.html
     
  4. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    you missed this bit:

    And time, too, for the governing bodies to get their act [together!] in order and give it a proper chance. Let's be honest: the way it has been implemented has made football look like amateur night. Failing to make provision for fans in stadiums to follow the course of a VAR decision is unforgivable. It's a textbook case of how to lose the battle for hearts and minds.

    I have 2 main beefs with VAR.
    1. The people "managing" its introduction give the impression that they don't know what the hell they are doing, and that the whole thing has been rushed into duty without proper controls and training. I've seen very little that gives me confidence we won't see rules introduced then changed as an "oops" realization kicks in.
    2, I am convinced VAR usage - with constant delays - will expand to essentially take over the game, a viewpoint that I base on seeing how poorly these guys have done so far and how much sway (big) clubs and TV interests have over the game's governing bodies.

    As far as "fans shouldn't get angry over VAR calling back tiny transgressions" .....
    The article misses a very key point. Offside is the classic example. The rule was introduced to stop attackers getting an advantage - that's the only reason the law exists. However VAR has reduced this to a ridiculous level - having an irrelevant body part (eg arm or head) a FRACTION ahead provides no material advantage. Consider this: with VAR, an attacker with back to goal but with a heel an inch ahead of the attacker would be called offside. What possible sense does that make? Seeing offside called in an absolute fashion of course pisses people off.
    Summary: VAR is applying the letter of the law and ignoring the intent (spirit) of the law. That's all technology can do, it's up to the officials to apply sense to the thing but they aren't doing it.
    Solution: Amend the rule now that the officials can discern (thanks to slo-mo repeats) if the attacker actually had an advantage.

    As far as taking emotion out of the game.....
    Footie is one of the few sports where the play is intended to be primarily uninterrupted (yes we have FKs throw-ins corners and goal kicks but you know what I mean.) . We've grown up with a game that has a 'continuous flow'. Now VAR is introducing stoppages that can kill the emotion of goal celebrations. Hard to adjust! But given that many VAR decisions result in (a) continued subjectivity or (b) offside hair-splitting .... of course fans will throw their arms in the air. The best part of the game experience is being effed up!

    As far as other sports not having the controversy .....
    VAR in the NFL and baseball does zero to the flow of the game so an irrelevant comparison.
    VAR in the NHL is damn rare and from what I've seen produces binary decisions for the most part.
    VAR in rugby ... I dunno, never seen it applied, but apparently it's been introduced well.

    Final (for now) point ...
    Nobody complains about the Goal Decision System because a pure binary application makes sense. So stop calling anti-VAR people Luddites!
     
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  5. el-capitano

    el-capitano Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 30, 2005
    Sydney
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
  6. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    You're a bloody spanner. :)
     
    el-capitano repped this.
  7. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Panama bounced from Gold Cup based on very poor handball pen call which VAR almost surely would have overturned, but there's no VAR in this tournament.

    Oh well! Them's the breaks, amigos... good luck next time.
     
  9. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    crediting VAR for decisions "it would have made"?

    really?

    makes no more sense than arguing about what a ref did or didn't do ...
     
  10. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #85 EruditeHobo, Jul 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    ... the decisions that VAR "would have" or "could have" made is the whole reason the powers that be use the tech in top leagues and tournaments today.

    If your point is a shitty ref could have refused the call, I guess you're right. But I'm talking about VAR, not shitty refs.
     
  11. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    really? you are joking, right? have you asked any Spurs fans how "obvious" our CL Final pen was a few weeks back?

    god almighty, man. you've got VAR so far up your rear end I'm surprised you can breathe.
     
  12. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's a very different situation to the Spurs penalty for multiple reasons.
     
  13. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    I love the way you talk as if Var as if VAR is some sort of infalible artificial intelligence. It's not! It's 3 shitty refs who prolly have little or no field experience calling their subjective Opinions.
     
  14. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    Yeah the first being it shuts down your. He didn't mean it but it's still a foul. Quote.
     
  15. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  16. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then get better refs!

    You guys talk about refs like they represent VAR... no, bad refs need to uphold the principles of VAR better. VAR's just a process. You can do it poorly or do it well. For the World Cup, I literally stopwatched a majority of VAR incidents. Almost none of them went for multiple minutes, unlike the WWC this summer. That makes it an execution problem.

    Shuts down my what? He didn't mean what? I don't know what you're talking about.

    It's not like the CL pen at all. One is a player striking a ball into a player a couple yards away, another is a ball coming down from out of the sky from a longball, and a midair challenge between 2 players in which a ball pings off a head into a hand less than a yard away. That is a situation specifically called out in the rules as not a handball. So, that's literally different. That's why I said... it's different.
     
  17. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Bollocks. show me the rule that mentions either of those 2 things.

    hint: I'll save you time - that wording doesn't exist in the laws of the game - the rules don't give examples ffs, you're inventing it.
     
  18. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The language is if the ball comes directly off another player who is close, it's not a handball. The long ball came in, 2 people challenged, it pinged off attacker's head into a hand of the defender that challenged the long ball, they were shoulder to shoulder.

    This is different than a guy with his arm raised that's a yard and a half away, like in the CL final. I even think that's a tough pen to call to your point (on some level).... but don't act like these aren't different situations. That's silly.
     
  19. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's the direct language.
     
  20. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It was a horror show of a call and I would expect most VARs to overturn it...but have you seen MLS? I wouldn't put any money on anything getting called right in that joke of a league. Which brings us back to your point, it's all about the quality of the refs...
     
    EruditeHobo repped this.
  21. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, I think I conceded that... if horrible refs are involved, anything's possible, you're right.
     
  22. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    OK lets back up. We're on two different tracks here.

    Your conclusion, well one of them when we were talking VvD and Lamela was "it doesn't matter that he didn't mean to kick Lamela. It's still a foul."

    I was talking about the WWC Sweden Germany game. The Swedish keep and a German forward went for the ball. The German tried to head it. The swede took a massive punch missed the ball and laid out the German. VAR said play on.

    I'm saying that she didn't mean to punch the German. But she did. By the logic (or lack thereof) you gave for the spurs game that means it's a PK.
     
  23. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    no it isn't. it's this:
    http://www.thefa.com/get-involved/referee/laws-of-the-game
    Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:
    • the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
    • the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
    • the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement
    • touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
    • hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement

    Hard as I look, I can't find what you stated: "One is a player striking a ball into a player a couple yards away, another is a ball coming down from out of the sky from a longball, and a midair challenge between 2 players in which a ball pings off a head into a hand less than a yard away. That is a situation specifically called out in the rules as not a handball."

    As you can see, the law
    - doesn't "specifically call out" a damn thing as "not a handball"
    - doesn't mention the ball "coming down from out of the sky"
    - doesn't mention "longball"
    - doesn't mention "midair challenge"
    - doesn't mention "head"

    other than that you were pretty close. unless the word "specifically" means something different where you live, of course.
     
  24. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    They do!
    Better Refs. You know Sam and I are calling the anonymous people giving rullings from TV, refs.

    If you, a proponent of var want it to work then I suggest you get better refs. So far it seems like the FIFA chosen ones suck.
     
  25. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #100 EruditeHobo, Jul 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    This is a complete misreading and misrepresentation of what I typed. The only reason I'm comparing these incidents is that you for some odd reason directly compared the CL final pen with this situation in the Gold Cup? Well... they're not the same! They're quite different. That's why I bothered to describe how and why. Then I said that this Panama situation has a specific section of the rules which says it's not a handball... and it does! Do you see me trying to talk about how far apart the players were in each situation? A guy challenging for a header shoulder to shoulder with an attacker that has the ball ping into his hand? There's a section in the rules outlining why that situation isn't a handball, I quoted them for you.

    I didn't say "the rules mention long balls into shoulder to shoulder challenges can't result in handballs!" I didn't say the rules have language about "the ball coming out of the sky"... I would never say that, I actually read the rules. And not just the ones from 2015-16, like those to which you just linked?
     

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