Donovan Speaks (Again)

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Martin Fischer, Sep 3, 2002.

  1. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Once again your reality. Donovan really thought he was a special player who could get playing time (albeit at 18 not 17 like I initially posted I guess) and frankly I think he is right -- he was good enough to get on the field at least for a few token appearances. Time will tell how good Donovan is.

    As for the blame-the-agent game, I don't think it is the agent's job to tell the player that the people he is dealing with are habitual liars. Given that Donovan (1) was good enough to get some playing time, (2) was told by Bayer that he would get a real shot and (3) didn't really have the bargaining power to negotiate the type of special clauses Donovan has now, I think the initial contract Donovan signed was fine. Even in the worst case scenario, Donovan would have been what 20 or 21 when that contract expired.

    And of course, the worst case did not happen. The agent has been able to create a situation -- no matter how much Donovan may grouse about wasting two years in Germany -- that is close to ideal for Donovan. Since that's his job, he is a sucess in this case -- so far, anyway.

    And those of you who insist in trying to live vicariously through Donovan, get a real life.
     
  2. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    I got what you want to say. I could show you a kicker season magazine - in the first year he wasn't even listed in the pro roster, he was a mere D3 player. In the second season he was introduced as new player in the pro team, but already before the season it was written that he'd - if at all - will have some short games in this year. This is what every reasonable agent could have warned him - that's of course all an agent can do. If Landon wants to leave despite of all warnings, then it is his business - but all facts we have speak against such an agent behaviour.

    I wouldn' call the club officials liars. Only 11 can dress for a game, do you think a club signs players with the promise to put them to the bench? Surely they don't tell it to anyone, but more than 50% of a roster can't be in the starting 11, so they will be disappointed. Did they tell lies? Maybe, but compare it with TV commercials or whatever, you simply cannot believe everything someone tells you. An agent has a very wide range of tasks, check out some player agents' websites if you don't know about it.

    With luck. Leverkusen is often blamed on this board, but in fact this is one of the top clubs regarding reputation among players. And again, negotiating is just one of many tasks of a player agent, you seem to mix his position with the one of a lawyer.
     
  3. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that the problem is that Donovan didn't get into even "short" games. If he had, he would probably still be there.

    If they told him something that was untrue, then they are liars.

    Regarding Leverkusen, I can't speak to their general reputation. It is clear that Donovan thinks poorly of the club. It is possible that this conduct is an aberration, that Donovan is wrong or that other German clubs are more unethical. I don't know, but everyone seems to admit that Leverkusen is guilty at least of misrepresentation, which for me is a bad thing.

    Back to the agent, I think I have a pretty good understanding of their role. The agent is the lead guy in putting the player in the best -- as the player defines it -- situation possible. This at times involves acting like a father, a friend, a lawyer, a negotiator. Sometimes the agent brings in extra help to help with these roles. It is ludicrous to claim Motzkin has done a poor job when he has achieved the exact result his player wants. Donovan still has to perform on the field, but he can't put that on the agent.
     
  4. DC Forever

    DC Forever New Member

    Mar 26, 2001
    Rockville, MD
    The more I read of this and the other ten million "should Landon go?" threads, the more I see at least some value in a lot of seemingly contradictory arguments. He's right to stay home for now, but will need to go abroad eventually. Here's the path that makes a lot of sense:

    I -- This is a kid who is clearly very immature and somewhat fragile emotionally whose experience in Germany scarred him badly.

    II -- By staying put for now he gets to a) grow up a bit in an environment where he can feel secure; b) Soak up the limelight while the iron is still kinda hot from the World Cup -- doing the game some good and also having some fun for himself; and c) Keep growing as a player in the role of a professional who can carry his team and has to deal with big expectations.

    III -- In another couple of years, other things being equal, he will have matured a lot as a person (think of yourself at 22 vs 19), milked the 02 World Cup dry, and probably about maxed out on how far he could develop as a player in MLS.

    IV -- At that point, he can go to Europe as a player who really can be a difference-maker on a big club, take his game to the next level, make major coin, and be at the top level to lead the U.S. in 2006 and 2010.

    V -- At that point, he can come home as a major star and help solidify MLS' standing as a big-time league.

    It makes sense to me.

    A couple of additional random thoughts -- A) The stuff with the sister really is kind of creepy; and B) He's got to either cut out the diving ************ or get a lot subtler about it. His performance against DC on Saturday was pathetic (the diving that is, not the two brilliant goals, which were anything but).
     
  5. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When people say Landon is immature, exactly what do they mean? Do they mean he's immature for his age? In which case, they're nuts. Is he immature for a professional top level soccer player? Yes. I think the criticism of him not taking enough personal responsibility, as long as it's not overblown, is valid.

    I want to add one more thing...I don't get a strong sense that Landon has thought out the next step. OK, he's going to get to stay in MLS one more year. The deal to go to BL this season and see how it works didn't pass muster.

    OK, what about next year? Is there any indication that Landon knows or has communicated to BL what's going to happen then?
     
  6. Poet

    Poet Member+

    Mar 13, 2001
    Toledo, Ohio
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok, here is a sorry little bit of info that may or may not be relative. I was never even close to being another LD but...

    When I lived in Germany as a kid (~16)...I hated it!! I was miserable (looking back it wasn't that bad, in fact it was quite enriching). All I could think about was getting back to 'the world'. And I had a pretty good support system with lots of American friends etc. But they also felt the same way. Now imagine this kid in Germany WITHOUT any support there at all. Jeez, cut the kid some slack eh? It sounds like he has such a bad experience he doesn't want f*** all to do with Bayer -- first team or not, good for him, its the American way! I mean look at today's political parralell: Gerhard Schroeder wimping out out Saddam? F*** em, don't need ya! Ok that's a stretch, but LD could be our first truly genuine 100% American footballer.

    Hey, the kid plays pretty good ball, good enough to contribute to the Nats, good enough to earn some decent accolades and he can get better. He's on our team for crying out loud, how bout us being on his? How bout those 2 goals this past weekend?
     
  7. Sinko

    Sinko New Member

    Dec 28, 1999
    xalapa ver mx
    Club:
    Harrisburg City Isl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Whatever you do, don't ever compare professional athletics to a normal working environment, because it's not. They live in a fantasy world where different rules apply... and even their fantasy rules bend for Superstars.

    If it makes him happy to stay in MLS, then more power to him. Eff Bayer and their contract. If TD is to be believed, Bayer's position is weak anyway. They're just trying to save face anymore.
     
  8. TequilaJoal

    TequilaJoal Red Card

    Mar 3, 2002
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok i'm scared

    The whole article is fine.. I love LD, hate him as an Earthquake though.


    here is my scary take on it.... him and his sister, whoa!!

    from all the interview i have seen with landon and his sister.. both are single !!

    Landon should score 5 times more pussy than goals this year... but this it the BIG BUTT

    don't you get the sense that there is a little Tony Montana and Gina ala scarface thing going on with LD and his sisiter.


    Better not read in a few years in the Star or National Enquirer that she's pregnant and the only reason landon's having stomach aches is that its' *** His Baby ***
     
  9. Sinko

    Sinko New Member

    Dec 28, 1999
    xalapa ver mx
    Club:
    Harrisburg City Isl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What ever makes you happy.
     
  10. maverick

    maverick New Member

    Mar 7, 1999
    San Diego, CA
    Really, really disappointing.

    Seriously, mods, can we please, please erase or at least put a stop to the ridiculous incest talk? It's patently offensive (legal note: and possibly libelous, as well), and Tim D., Landon or anyone else shouldn't have to read it.

    Furthermore, I totally agree that Landon's comments make it sound like an "off the record," off-hand remark. Printing it is just the sort of behavior that gives interviewers a bad rap and puts interviewees totally on guard. If nothing else, and putting the best spin on it, the writer simply made a small mis-step in an otherwise quite engaging and positive article. Either way, get over it.

    Finally, let's quit the "immaturity/emotionally damaged" Big Soccer Bull S**t, which is annoying for two reasons: first, he seems unusually MATURE for a 20 year old when you actually hear him talk in person and at length (which a printed interview NEVER does); second, he's neither emotionally damaged nor fragile, he simply had a miserable personal experience when he first left home at age 16 to live in a foreign country. That's totally NORMAL.

    I find it amusing to no end that a bunch of BS posters who have nothing better to do than post vitriolic messages while bathed in the glow of a computer screen (how anti-social is that behavior?) are crying foul over another person's fully exercisable right to seek personal fulfillment ON THEIR OWN TERMS. Last I checked, our founding fathers wrote that our country was set up, in no small part, to allow the individual "the pursuit of happiness."

    Are you going to take issue with, essentially, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights just because YOU feel that Landon should go play in Europe to prove a point? Let him live his life. No-one is bound to a contract, that's why we have liquidated damages which are payable in cash. To force ANYONE to live up to the terms of a contract against their will ("specific performance") would be a form of "indentured servitude" -- that's slavery, for you lay folks. We got rid of that as a society a long time ago...

    I have resisted posting until this point because, frankly, there was NO POINT. This isn't a thread about a contract dispute (which has an abstract and concrete BS-related basis for discussion), or any other soccer-related matter: it's about people trying to live another person's life, and that's just sad. I was motivated to post simply to stop several idiots from crossing a (legal) line in the sand. If the mods don't -- AT THE VERY LEAST -- stop the incest innuendos, I'll be very disappointed.

    Having posted my warning to the mods, I'm not entering this thread again, and I won't respond to any attacks on this post of mine, either. What's the point? There aren't ANY facts listed here, it's just gut feelings. And if two gut feelings are in direct conflict, no amount of dialogue will bridge the gap. You believe Landon should: (i) stay, (ii) go, or (iii) it's none of your business. Pick one of the three, state your case, and then move on. That's the logical response. Attacking Landon for his perceived faults achieves NOTHING.
     
  11. Sinko

    Sinko New Member

    Dec 28, 1999
    xalapa ver mx
    Club:
    Harrisburg City Isl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dunno Dave, I see little to no separation between the personal/emotional and the professional in the way you present this.

    How do you define "for his age"? Where does that line get drawn?
     
  12. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    Re: Really, really disappointing.

    With your general remarks you're very right. Landon lives his life and within his personal sphere nobody has a right to judge on it. All we can comment is his life in the public. Accusing someone of incest is offensive at least and personally I'd sue anyone who'd tell such crap about myself.

    Your contract talk on the other hand is not really true. Nobody is bound to a contract? Show me a law of a country where this is true. It usually has no consequences in penal law if this is what you mean, but any law in the whole wide world determines consequences for you if you don't fulfill a contract. That's what you correctly recognise with damages, but this already is a consequence of breaching a contract and not a normal scenario as you put it (in other words: you're right with the outcome of what you say, but you're getting there from the wrong direction). And breaching the contract has never been a topic for Landon as far as I know.

    Martin Fischer: call officials what you want, but I guarantee you that in pro soccer you'll have to call all officials liars with your definition. I mean, call them like this if you want to, but that's just business in any club of any pro sports (and competitive non-pro sports as well).

    Regarding the old topic Leverkusen and Donovan - maybe you're seeing it a little subjective or don't know too much about the habits in pro sports in general (not only Leverkusen or Bundesliga). Try to find a soccer expert in Germany who knows the whole story of Landon in Leverkusen and who says that Leverkusen was wrong - you'll find nobody, you'll just find people shaking their heads about such a naive person as Landon. With 17 or 18 you're allowed to be naive, but you need someone who gives advice... but that's something you don't want to hear.
     
  13. maverick

    maverick New Member

    Mar 7, 1999
    San Diego, CA
    [sigh] I can't believe I'm doing this... [/sigh]

    My sentence, as currently formulated, is not "stand alone" -- the very next sentence is critical. Of course a contract is binding in the sense that breaking it creates consequences. I was merely pointing out that in the U.S., you cannot compel specific performance of a services contract in the case of a breach, you can only collect damages. Last I checked, a professional athlete is performing on a services contract. For a court to legally direct any athlete to continue, say, playing for the Metrostars when that player has stated a desire to retire to South Dakota in order to take up life as a farmer, simply because he signed a contract saying he will play through the 2003 season, is inconceivable.

    Bayer and FIFA may (and I emphasize may) be able to keep Landon from playing for any other club anywhere in the world until 2007 (when his contract expires), but nothing, and I mean nothing, can FORCE Landon to play for Bayer today, tomorrow or any day in the future. Period. As implied in our earlier conversations in another thread, a court may determine that Landon is in breach of his contract if he DOESN'T show up, but that's an entirely different animal.

    My point is not directed at you, but at the morons on these Landon threads who keep arguing that Landon "must" honor his contract and show up at Leverkusen, or else the world will end. Landon doesn't have to do ANYTHING, so long as he's willing to pay the price -- literally -- for his decisions in cold, hard cash.
     
  14. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    Now it is correct the way you put it :)
     
  15. improv

    improv New Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    I think landon should learn from John O Briens story. He also came at the age of 16 to Holland to the Ajax academy. In interviews with John i read that it was tough because he was away from his home but he had a goal and he wanted to reach that goal.
    You could read in the interview with landon that in a way he hasn't had a goal and I think that's the reason he didn't make it. JOB was the first foreigner who came to the academy.The Ajax academy is a lot tougher and the to learn the language (he speaks it fluently with no accent) is also tough. JOB reached the first squad and Ronald Koeman (ajax coach) sayd that if he starts with writing hin line-up on the board he starts with JOB.

    If landon really want to he can reach it.
     
  16. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United, anywhere Pulisic plays
    Aug 3, 2000
    Proxima Centauri
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hup Holland Hup!

    Donovan did make it. He was possibly the best reserve player. He was simply too young to play in the 1st team. Now he is not too young, but he does not want to return. That's his prerogative. Of course Leverkusen can call him back in January. Then Landon can answer the call or buy out his contract. I don't think he has the money for that, so he would rely on Nike to buy it out. Whatever the case, I hope Landon is happy.
     
  17. irishFS1921

    irishFS1921 New Member

    Aug 2, 2002
    WB05 Compound
    they live in the fantasy world because people let them. and by saying, "oh they're an athlete they get special treatement" ..etc then you aren't making a positive situation. by giving him whatever you don't create a positive rolemodel. that's all i'm saying.

    good point on the whatever makes you happy.
     
  18. Sinko

    Sinko New Member

    Dec 28, 1999
    xalapa ver mx
    Club:
    Harrisburg City Isl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You won't get an argument from me about the absurdity of the nature of how athletes and entertainers are glorified and compensated. In the grand skein of existence the vast overwhelming majority of it all has little true worth... the opiate of the masses. But in current day society it is the reality, like it or not.

    To touch back on the maturity issue... to his credit, he seems to be very intelligent, and I think his growth ceiling is high. Good for him he's found his comfort zone.
     
  19. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Really, really disappointing.

    Whatever. I don't need to play semantic games with you. If you think everyone in business lies, that is a position that is supported by recent events. But I hope you are wrong.

    Well sure maybe I am subjective, though I think not. Listen, I don't need to talk to any "experts". I am familiar with Landon Donovan's play and I am familiar with the standards in Europe, including the Bundesliga. My opinion is that Donovan would have played at a level to start for most of the clubs in the Bundesliga at 18. My opinion is that Donovan, while not good enough at 18 to be a regular contributor to a top club like Leverkusen was good enought that Leverkusen should have given him a few late game runouts in blowouts or something.

    The fact that every expert in Germany is sure that Donovan couldn't contribute at age 18 strikes me as a manifestation of the problems Germany has squashing youthful creativity and flash, which probably prevented(s) Germany from winning the World Cup despite its other strengths.
     
  20. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Re: Re: Re: Really, really disappointing.

    I certainly wouldn't argue against a country with the World Cup record of Germany. If anything, thr reverse is true: their record exceeds their available talent.
     
  21. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At age 20.

    I'd like to address one of the digressions on this thread. Landon doesn't have to act like a pencil pusher at a corporation because his talents are rare, and the pencil pusher's are not. Look at how CEOs are treated. They do a good job, they get rewarded. They do a lousy job, they get rewarded. They do a horrible job, they get fired, but with a golden parachute.

    Why is that? Because they have the power. Corporate boards are very incestuous, and nobody's going to be a maverick and lose the meeting fees.

    I think part of people's problem is that they resent the fact that Landon has more power in his relationship with his employer than they have with theirs. It p***** them off that he gets to play by different rules.
     
  22. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Really, really disappointing.

    I don't buy the whole Germany overachieved thing -- Kahn and Ballack are two of the best five players in the world, so I don't think basic talent was the problem. I think having someone who could unlock an opposing defense with a little flash and sizzle would have helped the Germans. And frankly I think the Germans can have both a little flash and their traditional virtues.

    Makes me think you are English as they are the ones I usually hear whining about how the Germans are not really that good.
     
  23. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Really, really disappointing.

    Sorry, Martin, but you can believe M in this point. Everybody in Germany expected them home after the quarter final or even earlier and the finals were just reached because of the very easy opponents on their way. Kahn and Ballack are great, for sure, but defenders, forwards and the left wing were and are international average at best. There is youth coming up at the moment, but this mainly as clubs like Stuttgart can't afford new players and have to rely on the young ones. In 2006 the team will have a much better quality than the one this year.
     
  24. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Really, really disappointing.

    And Korea was filled with players that were better than international average? The U.S.? Paraguay? The Germans had more talent than all of the their opponents except Brazil, which is why they finished second.

    Nice try.
     
  25. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Really, really disappointing.

    So I guess Franz Beckenbauer must be English? Sure would have come in useful in that QF in Leon...
     

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