I don't have a problem with this. It's sports related. Would it be any different if they chanted it at Brad Evans or Eddie Johnson?
I'm plenty on the record in Klinsmann's corner on his decision to cut Donovan but chanting this is out of bounds. The guy has put in a lot of hard work and effort for the USMNT. At this point my beef is with the a-hole posters who wouldn't support if it was wrapped around their little pecker.
I'm talking about in the context of this message-board. As far as affecting the product on the field? No, there isn't a damn thing coming from fans or a message-board that's going to hurt or help the players in any fashion.
I don't think there's any need for that either. You can call Eddie Johnson a d-bag all day long, which he probably is or call Brad Evans average which he pretty much is but calling them "national team rejects"? That's not cool.
I disagree. It's sports related, totally fair game. In the grand scheme of classless chants it barely registers for me. He busted his ass for the national team and I appreciated it but he has also been handsomely rewarded for his effort on the national team. So he can take the good with the bad. Its club football totally different world.
I agree. And this is how you answer your critics: That's how young Julian Green needs to answer his critics.
Umm, I think d-bag would be worse. In that case you are making a personal statement about them. National team reject, it's sports related and well at the moment true. Generally I am pretty tolerant of fans chants. These guys are being paid money to play, and they only reason they are making money is fans care. So the good part of fans caring is they will pay money to watch you play. The bad side is they get into it. But if you can't take it, well get a real job and play for fun in a rec league. Now there are lines, nothing racial, nothing super personal (never advocated chants about wives and things) and I in general don't like chants with curses (seems so unoriginal) although the good old fashion a****e chant I can handle. But besides that these are big boys. Taking S**T from the crowd is part of the job requirement of a professional athlete.
I think calling someone a national team reject is pretty personal. I'd rather have someone call me a d-bag or a-hole than to rag on me for not making the USMNT.
When talking trash, normally I would say most things are fair game -- but you should never talk trash on someone not making the national team. It's disgraceful. The dudes aspire their entire lives for this one singular event, and it's a matter of national pride, not your little team.
Ouch. I agree with this sentiment. Not long ago, a goalkeeper said she could have made those saves, setting the crap --> fan everywhere. One year later she did all that and more and made her critics stfu.
I'd heavily disagree with the assessment. Yes in people's minds Klinsmann is regarded as better since he was on the stage as a World Cup winner from the get-go. However, he disappointed in his other 2 appearances at the World Cup, and became known as a flop artist. For 1, Klinsmann scored 9 World Cup goals all as the forward of a fairly dominant team. Matthaus, Brehme, Voller, Hassler, etc. Since when has Donovan been surrounded by the likes of anything similar? In the pantheon of German strikers he's behind Klose, Muller, and in the same ballpark as Voller, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, and Helmut Rahn, etc. who have had less games with Germany. So yeah it makes it easier when your team wins the cup, then goes to 2 finals to get more goals than people. Klinsmann played in 17 games in total: Donovan played in 12. So yes 11 goals in 17 games vs 5 goals in 12 games is better... but there's more to that story than just the numbers, the quality of the team around him. The quality of the opponent played... and also the position on the field. For 2, Donovan played most of his World Cup games as a midfielder, not a striker. Klinsmann was an out and out striker. He was the person people were passing to, in order to score. Donovan was the person passing to McBride, Mathis, Dempsey, Altidore, etc. in order to score, but able to support the attack as well. He played as a forward, but a withdrawn forward. He also played games at right flank, left flank, and as a central creative midfielder. How many games did Klinsmann start at right flank? Donovan played 1 game as a CF, 2 games as an AM, 1 as a CM, 1 as a LW, 4 as a LM, and 4 as a RM, and yet his goals per game average isn't much lower than Klinsmann's. Donovan's 5 goals in 12 games as a midfielder stands out among the all-time greats (41.6%). The great Maradona played in 21 games, mostly as a withdrawn forward but some as a attacking midfielder, he scored 8 goals (38.09%). Zinedine Zidane scored 5 goals in 12 games for France (41.6%), just the same as Donovan. Michel Platini played in 15 matches at the World Cup, and also net 5 goals (33.33%). Wesley Sniejder scored 5 goals in 11 games (45.45%), but 1 of those goals was awarded to him after the match changing the scoring of an own goal (if the same were done for Donovan he'd have another from the game against Portugal). However, that's your company when speaking about Donovan in terms of his performances at the World Cup. Whereas, with Klinsmann he isn't even top 5 when it comes to forwards from his own nation. Muller (son), Muller (father), Klose, Rahn, Voller, Rummenigge, etc. For 3, Donovan lead the team to new heights that hadn't ever been achieved. Taking the US to the quarterfinals and to the round of sixteen is an unprecedented run of unexpected success. We finished dead last at the World Cup the year before Donovan showed up on the team. Germany were twice runners-up at the World Cup before Klinsmann showed up on the scene. Germany were the expected heir apparent to the throne in 90 when they won, and again each time in 94 and 98. So Donovan lead a team to overachieve, Klinsmann joined a team at the height of the game, and then sputtered out with them. So comparing goals alone isn't the way you can measure the two of them. There's more about the poise and the performances in clutch games you have to consider. Klinsmann didn't do much in the clutch games. He had 1 brilliant performance against Holland, when Rijkaard spit on Voller, but Holland were down a great defensive player and germany were down an offensive player, but had all sorts of offensive from midfield, Klinsmann scored and Brehme scored in the game off of great set ups from Matthaus. He went missing in most after that. He scored almost all of his goals against bottom dwellers, like UAE, USA, Bolivia, South Korea, Iran, etc. in games where his team was mostly dominant. When you got into the later rounds it was Brehme, Matthaus, Bierhoff, Voller, etc. that would get the goals. He played in 3 round of 16 games and scored in 2 of them, but he had 5 World Cup games quarterfinals or higher and never scored in one of them. Donovan played in 2 round of 16 games and scored in both, and only played in the 1 quarterfinal. Donovan played against Portugal, Germany, Czech Rep, Italy, England, etc. in games where the US was matched up against opponents whose all-time World Cup performance is much higher than the US'. Klinsmann never played in games against the greatest of great teams, or if he did he was mostly taken out of them. Under Klinsmann Germany lost to Croatia, Bulgaria, drew with Yugoslavia, Colombia, and Spain, teams Germany normally would've beaten. Since Klinsmann left the team they've finished 2nd, 3rd, and 3rd. I think you'll see over time Klinsmann's name being remembered less and Donovan's being spoken about more so. Donovan had a major chance to make that become a definite by having a decent showing in Brazil, but Klinsmann prevented that from occuring. You are right, though, if Klinsmann takes the US to the quarterfinals this year, that all changes.
You really don't know Klinsmann well if you think he isn't about appearances and/or pety antics. This is the guy who has been a major Diva at every club he's been at, and for the German national team. He went out of his way to get his rival Matthaus taken off the squad for Germany. He threw a major on field hissy-fit after being subbed out of a late season match to get a young kid (the basic equivalent of Julian Green) some on field experience, and started kicking an adboard. No way he would get pissed off about someone replacing him... Heck, when he was with Germany he decided to change the jersey color from the traditional DFB colors of Green to Red, because studies had shown teams with Red jerseys win more often. If that isn't overly putting stock into appearances, I don't know what is. Besides, all that trouble with Ballack really didn't help him. In 2002, with Ballack and no Klinsmann, Germany finished 2nd In 2006, with Klinsmann riding Ballack, Germany finished 3rd In 2010, with Ballack injured and no Klinsmann, Germany finished 3rd. You'll find Klinsmann's coaching "success" with Germany wasn't really all that successful. Rather average by the standard of Germany. He didn't like it but he kept having to go back to Ballack, because at the time he was one of the best players in Germany. He won't admit that Donovan is one of the best players in America.
Revisionist history to fit your current narrative. Lets look at a better sample size of German Results 1996: E.C. (European Championship) Winners (JK was on the team) 1998 W.C.: Lose in the Quarters to Croatia 2000 E.C.: Finish last in the group 2002 W.C.: Beaten Finalists 2004 E.C.: Finish third in the Group 2006 W.C.: Semi-finalists (JK as Manager) If you look at the whole picture including European Championships you see that the overall arrow was down for the German program, and 2002 was an outlier. Even with the final appearance in mind that 2002 squad wasn't the strongest. It's normally not a good sign when you are relying on your keeper as much as that team needed to. I would also venture that they were a little fortunate in the knockout stages drawing Paraguay. US, and South Korea. No real powerhouses, and Germany failed to dominate any of them. Whether you want to give him credit or not, that 2006 squad brought them out of a low period and created the current foundation. And he was the manager. So I think he should get some credit.
There's no revisionist history involved... Everything said was factual and relevant to the discussion at hand. I was responding to a comment that; "On the grand scheme of the World Cup, Klinsmann is ahead of Donovan. He scored 11 goals and won the tournament. As far as US Soccer, Klinsmann has a very long way to go before he's even in the conversation with Donovan as far as legacy. Getting to the quarterfinal this World Cup would be a start." We were discussing his performance at the World Cup, Euro championships weren't part of the discussion, but if you want to bring that in, I can play ball. His European Championship experience further enhances the notion that he was harry houdini when it came to big matches, and made his World Cup play that much more of a disappointment. But, rather than the limited microscope that you're using, we're going to give it the real perspective. Germany's Major Tournament Performance: WC 1930 - (Did Not Enter) WC 1934 - 3rd WC 1938 - 10th WC 1950 (Banned) WC 1954 - 1st (in nearby German part of Switzerland) WC 1958 - 4th > Euro 1960 - (Did Not Enter) WC 1962 - (2nd Group Phase) > Euro 1964 - (Did Not Enter) WC 1966 - 2nd - lost in extra time, with a controversial goal > Euro 1968 - Did Not Qualify WC 1970 - 3rd > Euro 1972 - 1st WC 1974 - 1st (Hosts) > Euro 1976 - 2nd - lost in pks WC 1978 - 6th (2nd Group Phase) > Euro 1980 - 1st WC 1982 - 2nd - noteable semifinal win vs FRA, 1st game decided by pks at WC, controversial Schumacher hit > Euro 1984 - Group Phase WC 1986 - 2nd > Euro 1988 - 3rd (Hosts) WC 1990 - 1st - won by a late controversial pk > Euro 1992 - 2nd - lost to host in final WC 1994 - 5th (Quarterfinals) - Effenberg thrown off team after 2nd match vs Spain > Euro 1996 - 1st WC 1998 - 7th (Quarterfinals) - Worns Red Carded in 37th minute vs. Croatia > Euro 2000 - 14th (Group Phase) WC 2002 - 2nd - Ballack suspended for final against Brazil > Euro 2004 - 12th (Group Phase) WC 2006 - 3rd (Hosts) - Frings suspended for semifinal vs Italy, lost in extra-time > Euro 2010 - 2nd WC 2010 - 3rd - Muller suspended for semifinal vs Spain > Euro 2012 - 3rd Germany have 3 WC titles, and are 7 times a finalist. They have finished 3rd 4 times as well and 4th once. They are 3 time European Champion, and 6 times finalists, finishing 3rd twice there as well. They have consistently placed higher at the World Cup and European Cup than any other nation, and their average finishing place at the World Cup is 3.5. That means they've also reached the semifinals or better in 21 out of the 29 tournaments they've entered (72% of the time). They've been especially dominant nearby home. They hosted 2 World Cups, winning once and finishing 3rd the other time. They also finished 3rd in the only European Championship they hosted. That means an avg of 2 as World Cup hosts and 2.33 overall in tournaments hosted. They also won in nearby German Switzerland in 1954 and with a team filled with players who played mostly in Serie A at Italia 1990. That's 1st, 1st, 3rd, 1st, and 3rd in tournaments where they had some form of home-field advantage. You could probably throw in the 2nd place finish at Euro 2008 in Austria/Switzerland as well. That works out to 1.83 as an avg place in friendly confines across 6 tournaments. So to have played for Germany in 3 World Cups, and finished 1st, 5th, and 7th is an avg of 4.33, which is below standard for Germany. To have coached Germany in 1 World Cup and taken them to 3rd is about standard for Germany, and below where they finished their other time as hosts or in nearby territory where they enjoyed a home-field advantage. You want to credit him for Winning a World Cup and a European Championship feel free, but don't do so without mentioning he didn't score in the last 3 matches at the World Cup, and he was subbed out of the quarterfinal vs Croatia, and missed the semifinal vs England on the way to the final where it was Oliver Bierhoff coming in for 2 late goals to win the tournament for them. So yes, credit Klinsmann for playing for perhaps the greatest soccer nation of all-time and being surrounded by amazing players like Matthaus, Brehme, Voller, Sammer, Reidle, Kohler, Moller, Hassler, Bierhoff, Ilgner, Kopke, etc... Nothing about that performance of Klinsmann's stands out historically. His 5 goals in 13 European Championship matches compares similarly with Donovan's 5 goals in 12 World Cup appearances, only Donovan did so at the World Cup and as a midfielder... Comparative to Donovan, if I did the same, you would see a much different result. Obviously he has not coached, or played in a tournament we hosted (other than the Gold Cup), but comparatively using US performances here goes. US Major Tournament Performance WC 1930 - 3rd Place WC 1934 - 16th Place WC 1938 - (Did Not Enter) WC 1950 - 10th Place (Group Phase) WC 1954 - (Did Not Qualify) WC 1958 - (Did Not Qualify) WC 1962 - (Did Not Qualify) WC 1966 - (Did Not Qualify) WC 1970 - (Did Not Qualify) WC 1974 - (Did Not Qualify) WC 1978 - (Did Not Qualify) WC 1982 - (Did Not Qualify) WC 1986 - (Did Not Qualify) WC 1990 - 23 (Group Phase) - Controversial red card to Wynalda WC 1994 - 14 (Round of 16) - played up a man vs BRA in loss, lucky Own Goal vs COL WC 1998 - 32 (Group Phase) WC 2002 - 8 (Quartefinals) - controversial hand-ball not called in 1-0 loss to GER WC 2006 - 25 (Group Phase) - Controversial 2 red cards verse ITA & PK awarded to GHA. WC 2010 - 12 (Round of 16) - Controversial goal disallowed against SLV So our average place overall at the World Cup is 15.88, which includes 3rd in 1930, 16th in 1934, and 10th in 1950, when it was only like 12-16 teams. Then there was a huge string of not qualifying, before recent success. In that recent run of qualifying we have averaged a place of 19. In that time we have 2 round of 16 appearances and 1 quarterfinal appearance in 6 tournaments. With Donovan, there's been a huge uptick. He came into the squad following our dead last finish, and was a major part in bringing us to the quarterfinals. He was also instrumental in getting us back to the round of 16. Prior to Donovan our modern World Cup performance was 23, 14, 32, for an average place of 23. His World Cup average place across 3 World Cups is 15, higher than our all-time average, and much higher than our recent history average. His quarterfinals appearance is part of our best recent performance, and he was voted best young player at the 2002 World Cup. His 5 goals in 12 appearances mostly as a midfielder ranks highly up there with Maradona, Zidane, Platini, and the other great midfielders of the World Cup. Things have definitely gone against us at the World Cup, including a sudden seeding change which took us from Pot 1 and placed us in pot 4 to be stuck with Czech Rep, Italy, and Ghana. But, despite all that's gone against us in recent times, Donovan has been able to rise to the challenge and lead us higher than we have been. In regards to Klinsmann's coaching, you want to make 2002 seem like an outlier, and yet, the 2006 performance had many of the same players from 2002. In 2002, Ballack was captain, Klose scored 5 goals, Thorston Frings a key defensive midfield player, Christoph Metzelder, Sebastian Kehl, and Bernd Schneider filled in roles in midfield and defense, Oliver Neuville offered a 3rd offensive option. The keepers were Kahn and Lehmann. They scored a lot of goals in the early round, and then squeaked their way to the finals with 1-0 victories. Key suspension takes their key central midfield player out of the final and they struggle to score, losing 2-0 in the semifinal. In 2006, Ballack was captain, Klose scored 5 goals, Christoph Metzelder, Sebastian Kehl, and Berns Schneider filled in roles in defense and midfield Oliver Neuville provided a 3rd offensive option. The keepers were Kahn and Lehmann. They scored a lot of goals in the early rounds, but snuck by Argentina in pks. A key suspension to their central midfielder left them struggling to generate chances, and they lost 2-0 in semis. Hard to call either outliers when they are exact in that manner. Yes, there were differences to the team as with each new squad that plays in a tournament 8 years apart. If you compared 2006 with 2010 you will see just as many similarities as you probably would if you compared 1998 with 2002. I still don't see where Klinsmann's coaching job deserves an awful lot of credit. If you want we can mix in his record with Bayern as coach. At Bayern, the year before Klinsmann they won the German Cup and Bundesliga, but lost in the semis of the Europa League. With him they exited the German Cup and Champions League in the quarterfinals, and were in 2nd position (which is where they finished) when he got fired. The following season, they won the German Cup, the Bundesliga, and finished 2nd in the Champions League. Theres no doubt Klinsmann was a really good soccer player, albeit one who was a major diva, with a flopping problem, that disappeared in big games. But he scored some amazingly brilliant goals in his career. However, as a coach the verdict has proven him just average. Yes he did better than Berti Vogts and Erick Ribbeck did (yet, he then brings Berti Vogts in for help with the USMNT, go figure). But put him right in there with Voller, Low, Derwall, and co, the short term coaches who took them far but didn't win. This comes to you from someone who's been a long time Germany and Bayern fan. I grew up with the films of Beckenbauer, Muller, Breitner, Rummenigge, Hrubesch, Kalz, etc. and watch live as they transitioned to Reidle, Matthaus, Brehme, Voller, Klinsmann, Hassler, Moller, Sammer, Hamann, Schol, Effenberg, Bierhoff, Ballack, Klose, Podolski, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Muller, etc. Klinsmann doesn't stand out among those figures. Yet, I've always been a huge US Soccer fan, and among all the players there hasn't been anyone like Donovan. Donovan is head and shoulders above many, and is the all-time goalscoring leader for the US and MLS, all-time caps, assists, and World Cup goals for the USMNT as well. He has scored numerous clutch goals for the US, and lifted our performance to new heights, including our first quarterfinal, and first group won at the World cup. You could throw in performances in Gold Cups and the Confed Cup as well. I don't think theres any question to it that Donovan is far bigger for US Soccer than Klinsmann, but in comparative terms, Donovan may even be remembered as a player right up there with Klinsmann in all-time discussions. Whether or not that figured into why he left Donovan off the World Cup squad, I don't know. However, by leaving EJ, LD, Corona, Edu, Goodson, Parkhurst, etc. off the roster, and binging in players with little experience, especially in terms of playing with each other is a huge gamble, and it shows he really isn't taking our best available squad to Brazil. If it works he will be lauded. If it doesn't, his coaching stock will go way way down... and I think it's fireable for not taking our best potential squad to the World Cup. That's not the time for experimentation. We will see how this goes, soon enough.
I gotta say though, National Team Reject, implies that it was because of poor performance. When the player has performed well and still was cut by the coach, that is going to a dirty filthy place that fans of the US shouldn't be crossing. He fought to represent us, and has scored numerous key goals for us, and just because a foreign coach opted for foreign players over him is no reason to be getting on him. I do agree with your statement that part of being a professional athlete is having to deal with being harassed by fans. Im sure none of them are going to be phased by it. I'm just saying that's pretty low, especially since some may get called up in the future, and one might even get called in as an alternate.
Wow, people are really overreacting to literally 10 people chanting something mean-spirited at a player. It wasn't racial, it wasn't taunting an injury, it didn't make fun of a member of LD's family, and there were no swear words. Ergo, it's fair game. Now, having said that, I wouldn't necessarily want fans of the US team saying that, but that's because I put the USMNT on a higher pedestal relative to my club affiliations. Some fans value their club more than their national team, or at least they value their club team enough that they can dislike a USMNT player on the opposing team. What if this were a rivalry game? Oh, no, you can't dislike that player, he almost made the WC squad! Please.
I don't know but I'm rather amused watching someone that uses "Lothar is 1" as a handle have the balls to call out someone else for being a Diva.
Here's what a pretty intelligent guy has to say about that: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...hen-hawking-advises-england-s-world-cup-squad