i find it hard to believe DvB is the better option at 6.5 and the coaches have watched him in training for 18 months, but not given him a chance there. edit - it's not impossible, and i've hated our mf composition for years so i get the frustration.
Not sure what a 6.5 is but the point remains that don't think it's out of bounds to want to see what Donny could do with a legit run as the other member of the double pivot, next to a more nominal 6 in that setup (be it Matic or Mc). As it's been mentioned, 2 of his most recent starts came in that position next to Matic and it's fair to say that he did pretty well in that position. Not anti-Fred personally and I can understand the argument for him being ahead or the preferred option most of the time, that is when his performance level is up to snuff. And the reality simply is that it hasn't been: something that has been pretty clear in the last 2 games. Given Fred's current lack of form, there is absolutely no reason not give Donny a look at least and see how he acquits there. Will not believe he can be actually worse than Fred has been of late, until it is clearly demonstrated on the pitch...
I started with the 6.5 and it is what we have with McFred. Two guys that aren't natural 6s being played as a 6. This is different from last game where Fred was deployed solely as the 6.
the fans want, we can't assess, i could pull 100 more quotes like this from you. he's been at the club long enough, do you think the coaches are freezing him out to the detriment of the team? Conspiracy theory bullshit. You want him to play in a pivot - then he needs to show in training he can do it.
He can't if the Manager has decided he will continue with the Fred experiment. Coaches are infallible, they get stuck in their own interpretation of players until an emergency comes and they have no choice then they find out a player can play in places. But appears Fred is a training ground hero who can't bring it on GameDay without McT.
You need to settle down because I never said anything about a 'conspiracy theory' or anything the like. That is you simply making things up... My point is very simple: Donny is a very capable, polyvalent player who can play in several positions in midfield. I can understand perfectly that we are not privy to everything but the bottom line remains that when we have seen him play, particularly in the double pivot (whether it was vs Wolves at the tail end of last season or again in preseason vs Everton), he looked like he was fine and could handle the job. And we do know, as a fact, that Ole has favorites he will turn to very consistently (regardless of form) for one reason or another, often at the detriment of others. All that most most people want to see is for Donny to get an opportunity and try something different. Particularly when the guy playing ahead of him is currently out of form. It's perfectly reasonable in my estimation...
I agree that Mc is not a genuine 6, but it's pretty clear that he is considered and very much being groomed as such by Ole and the coaching staff. And tbh, while he's not optimal for the role, he's still the best option there is at this time after Matic. I would be curious to see what he and Donny (as the 8/b2b) can do together in a midfield. There is no guarantee about their chemistry and if it will come off, but they might be complimentary of one another. Mc can do a job defensively, with his athleticism and dogged attitude, while Donny can make up in the areas where he's found wanting, especially when it comes to his passing and ball progression. They're both extremely press resistant too, so it's intriguing, if nothing else, to see how they can work together. Donny is not an 'harasser' on Fred's level, but is it something that would be vitally important against most opposition, when we're supposed to have the initiative anyway? Those games where we clearly have trouble breaking teams down, are where I'd hope we see a Mc-Matic/Donny partnership given an actual go.
@CybrSlydr look at the graphs, Fred is 99th percentile for blocks (ie 1% of midfielders get more blocks than him) and 94th for pressures (that's higher than Kante) 90th for interceptions (almost as good as Kante). I'm not sure what your criteria for elite is but his ranks among those 3 things are elite unless you consider only the top 3% in each categorie elite. I don't have the time, maybe you do, but I'd love to see a list of midfielders with more pressures, interceptions and blocks than Fred. I'd also love to see what their contributions are in other areas because Fred typically gets stick for passing/progression but he completes more passes, at a higher rate with more progression than Neves who everyone wants because they think he's better than Fred.
How many teams are beating down our door to get Fred if he's so elite? Nobody. Why? Because no matter what stats you throw out there, we have eyeballs and he doesn't pass the eyeball test. He's constantly making mistakes, bad give-aways, out of position, etc. He's a detriment to the team.
Fred is a high risk player when he's at 6. That's why he stands out so much. He gambles a lot in winning the ball back, hence his high numbers for pressures and blocks. But when he misses, we're suddenly extremely exposed. And it highlights his ill conceived discipline and positions. It's a similar issue with the ball in that he makes a lot of high risk passes. It's great when it works, but leaves us hugely exposed when it fails, given where he plays them. Hes not talented enough to be an elite passer, thus justifying such risks. That's especially notable with longer distance passes. But, I think Ole encourages the team to take risks naturally. He likes that fast, direct, riskier approach. So that's what we get from Fred.
I agree with some of this. Fred is high risk high reward, but he's also not a 6. If he was playing alongside a proper 6, he'd be more effective. I think the passing thing is weird. I honestly think we have set our standards (rightfully) so high that we just don't allow any 'easy' misplaced passes. Fred completes 88% of his passes and is more progressive than most CMs. The problem he has is that in our minds he's competing with Pogba, Carrick, Scholes... he's not as good as they are/were at passing, but he makes up for many of his shortcomings with hard work. For starters, I didn't say he was elite at everything, I listed things he was elite at. Read what I typed. Also, teams aren't beating down our door for Rashford or Greenwood, is that because they suck? Nobody has offered for Bruno? Why is that? Maguire? Shaw? Nobody at all. Why?
No, he's definitely not competing with those guys in my mind. Yes, he's not a 6. Doesnt change much in my critic. Stop giving the ball to the other team, in our defensive third. He does it EVERY SINGLE GAME without fail.
Last week when I saw him sknock down a pass and hit it directly into the path of a Wolves player on the break which made the break even worse I just couldn't do it anymore. That was my final straw with them
What I mean benni is that they are the ones who've set the standard, so that's what we expect. It is the same way people thought Carrick wasn't good enough to play next to Scholes because he was replacing Keane. I think my fondness for Carrick is why I was so harsh on Matic. Maybe I'm alone in letting nostalgia colour my grading of players, but I think outside of the odd giveaway in a precarious position, Fred is an excellent servant of the club. More than that, I think he's been one of more important performers. Very much a 'glue' type of player but I'm okay with disagreeing on it.
Is Fred your son? Or brother? Fred has not performed beyond a Fletcher or Park. He is on level with Johnny Evans to me.
1433635446798569474 is not a valid tweet id Hard to disagree with that assessment, especially when we've seen the team struggle time and again to break down teams that are compact, organized and defend deep. Accept that his skills and capabilities may not be optimal at all times and against top level oppo for instance, have no issue at all with us going with Fred (his high workrate, tenacity and energy alone are generally useful in those situations). Donny does offer something different though, which can come handy in specific games in their own right.
Wait til Johno gets here and tells you that your eyeballs are lying and there are xg,gx,xx,gg and other stats that show how poorly he played and why Fred would have been better.
We're stuck with Fred until at least January. Donny kind of fills those gaps in Fred's game and I think there's a possibility one of Pogba or Bruno gets a reduced role too now that Cristiano and Sancho have signed.
Guido Albers (Donny agent) was live on @ZiggoSport last night, taking the time to talk about Donny van de Beek's situation at Manchester United while also explaining what happened on the last day of the transfer window.This will be a full thread, all quotes included. pic.twitter.com/Oq2Z2qxoNM— 𝐀𝐅𝐂 𝐀𝐉𝐀𝐗 💎 (@TheEuropeanLad) September 5, 2021 Evidently there is no ambiguity in Donny's camp at this point and we'll see how it all unfolds in the next 4mos for starters.