Domestic Leagues 2024-25

Discussion in 'Referee' started by RefIADad, Aug 11, 2024.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What a disaster.

    Has Ancelotti said anything yet?
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was ready and expected to see something gross here. But I've got to say I think that is an excellent VAR intervention. Raphinha drags the left leg before the challenge even fully comes in. The right leg is not hit by the lead tackling leg.

    That's a dive.

    In the old days, it would be an excellent dive on the part of the attacker. Like, incredibly well executed. But it is a dive nonetheless. That's cheating to win the game. Just excellent work to get that right.
     
  3. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I've watched it again and I see the dive and I don't have a problem with the intervention in a vacuum.

    But it's just hard for me to accept the VAR micro-analyzing that given penalty, but not intervening on (for me) an even more obvious penalty not given a minute prior.

    I mean the attacker clearly got his foot taken out.

    I just have a hard time reconciling those situations.
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've yet to see the earlier incident so I'll reserve judgment.

    But I do think, as we've discussed before, the error of commission versus error of omission looms large. That was a dive to win the cup; it had to be overturned. If the previous one was an obvious penalty, so be it. But as we know there's an increasingly wide universe of "seen them given, seen them not given" as competitions reduce over the calendar and time elapses in a match.
     
  5. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd


    Here is the penalty appeal not given via VAR a minute prior to the OFR for the penalty given.
     
  6. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Match? Singular?

    Surely we’ve got to be talking about how many months Rudiger will have to sit? Right??? I hope I’m not wrong.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I get what you're saying. It should be a penalty, sure. But I think I stand by what I wrote above. We somewhat regularly see VARs find ways not to intervene on "softer" penalties in big moments and on big stages. So while I'm with you on the merits, I'm not scandalized by it. And I don't think the lack of intervention there should lead to a lack of intervention on the subquent play; that would should stand alone as a very good intervention.

    Remember when VAR was going to give us consistency? Yeah, right. It just opened up a new layer of subjectivity in a lot of circumstances.

    Oh, and Rudiger... at this point, he makes Pepe look like he wasn't dirty and Sergio Ramos look like a saint. How many incidents now have we had with Rudiger at Chelsea, with Germany and now in Madrid where he was or should be sent off? I don't think I've seen a player who more often undeservedly gets the benefit of the doubt than he does. Even in this case... what on earth is he kicking at? I'm sure he would have gone apoplectic if a penalty was given there, given how he acted in the technical area later. But he made a "challenge" for absolutely no real reason and wasn't anywhere near the ball.
     
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  8. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I mean Mbappe got only one game for a pretty horrific challenge that warranted at minimum three games and one poster even clamored criminal charges (obviously ridiculous).

    So is one game really out of bounds for throwing something at the referee and not connecting?
     
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  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm actually laughing aloud at this.

    I think Rudiger is entering the last year of his contract, so maybe there's some scenario where Real knows he's going and they don't fight some sort of ban after proceedings are delayed/appealed for a bit. Or maybe there's some move where he gets suspended for a healthy duration of the next cup, which he wouldn't play in anyway. But otherwise I think @RedStar91 is nearly spot on, if maybe exagerrating slightly. If Rudiger sits three matches of consequence as a result of this, I'd be surprised.

    There are five La Liga games left and the title isn't yet decided. This game is repeated May 11. Want to take bets on whether or not Rudiger suits up?
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Particularly when Real is doing what it's doing in the press.

    Rudiger misses a potential title-deciding rematch because he threw a water bottle from the sidelines that didn't hit anyone?

    I mean, we all know this should be a lengthy ban. But good luck trying to see that outcome in the real world.
     
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  11. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    So apparently Vazquez got sent off as well in the same incident as Rudiger.

    Also, Bellingham got sent off after the final whistle for AL to the referee.

    In one season Bellingham has received two red cards for abuse towards the referee. Yet there probably isn't a player in Premier League history that has received two red cards in their career for abusive language.

    I know suspensions for red cards in domestic cups vary from league to league, I think, in Europe. I think some leagues treat the domestic cup as a standalone competition and suspensions only apply in the cup competition and don't carry over to the league.

    Others just have it be applied to the next league match.

    I don't know what the actual rules are in Spain and I don't remember how they do it.

    My guess is they'll just have the suspensions apply for the next Copa Del Rey match. I can't imagine Real will be without three starters for their next league game.
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you watch the fourth official closely, he is walking over toward the Real bench and looking at the two individuals who entered the field to visually dissent. One is Vinicius Jr. The other no longer has his game jersey on--I presume that's Vazquez?

    The fourth (and maybe Reserve AR) actually don't see Rudiger throw the bottle because they were focused on the field entry. Burgos sees it himself (and, I would note, steps away from the landing zone--this could have hit him if he didn't see it). Burgos comes over to give red and actually seems to be engaging okay with the player who I believe is Vazquez and then, right before the camera cuts away, you see the 4th tell Burgos that the guy right in front of him needs a card. I presumed it was yellow until I saw the report. Entering the field to dissent should be a red, so good that they got that, too.

    That said, Vinicius Jr. did the exact same thing and got away with it. I get you only usually pick one, but if there's any post-match discipline for Vazquez I'd pay attention to see if Vini Jr. gets anything. Also, let's not sleep on Mbappe's clear act of dissent after the foul call. In the grand scheme of things, sure it's just a yellow, but it's also indicative of how entitled this team feels to do whatever it wants at the moment.

    I know I said above Rudiger won't miss May 11 and for some reason I still think that's true. But with Vazquez, Bellingham and Rudiger all in the dock, at least... the RFEF has a nightmare on its hands unless protocols are very, very clear.
     
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  13. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
  14. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    If “punish people the requisite amount in consequence of their actions” constitutes a nightmare for RFEF, then things are worse than I thought.

    And that may well be the case, given the situation in Spain. If it is, I’d really like to see UEFA step in and help the RFEF lay down the law. It’s unacceptable to have a situation where a team is using their political sway to control the national federation.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As @RedStar91 already pointed out, you did see Mbappe get 1-game for his red card, right? When SFP usually is 3 and that was pretty clearly worse than "regular SFP."

    And look, the return fixture of Barcelona-Real Madrid is almost always the biggest league fixture of the year worldwide--particularly so when it will help decide the title. So yeah, La Liga has a nightmare on its hands. It's admirable to try to put these disciplinary proceedings in a vacuum of absolute justice, but that's not how things operate.

    It's only been like this for 50-60 years or so.

    I'm not trying to be rude, but this is a fantasy you're putting forth. UEFA stepping in? I mean, UEFA can't afford to offend Real Madrid; the idea that it would even contemplate interfering with domestic discipline is just not in the realm of possibility. UEFA never does that, for starters. So it does it in an extraordinary case for Real Madrid, thereby proving Real Madrid's point that it's treated differently?
     
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  16. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Apparently, Rudiger threw ice at De Burgos Bengoetxea.
     
  17. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Any bets on who will handle the May 11 match? Gil Manzano? Too bad Mateu Lahoz is no longer around :D
     
  18. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Watching through the highlights now. I can’t believe Ceballos didn’t get sent off for that slap at 45’+6’.
     
  19. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Players have been suspended from games within their national leagues due to action by higher governing bodies before. Regardless, maybe it’s an abnormal case, but I’d argue that’s because it’s extremely abnormal for a national federation to be held at metaphorical gunpoint by one of the teams.

    The truth is that these disciplinary proceedings should be handled in a vacuum, and no one (not referee organizations, nor clubs, nor UEFA, nor FIFA) should tolerate anything less. It shouldn’t matter if the player’s name is Mbappe or Rudiger or Yamal, or if the badge they wear says Real Madrid or Alaves, or if they have a commercially-profitable game coming up or not. I think it must be stated quite strongly that, when a competition committee is swayed by any of those factors, that has to be seen a serious breach of sporting integrity. No one should tolerate it. And I would like to hope that someone higher up in the hierarchy, whether that be the RFEF, or UEFA, or even FIFA, has the integrity to be the adult in the room, put their foot down and say “this isn’t how we are going to do things anymore. No one is above the law.”

    If the RFEF cannot be trusted to make decisions without being swayed by the political pressures of their clubs, then other authorities must step in to protect the integrity of the sport. Maybe that’s a pie in the sky dream, but it’s a real stain on the sport if such a situation is allowed to fester without anyone doing anything to stop it.
     
  20. Pat Chewning

    Pat Chewning Member

    Dec 22, 2011
    Beaverton Oregon
    Club:
    FC Barcelona

    It was so hot that Rudiger, in his great kindness, brought the referee some ice to cool off. He was furious because his teammates didn't want him to give the referee any more.
     
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  21. Khan

    Khan Member+

    Mar 16, 2000
    On the road
    Yeah, that wasn't in any way "a challenge." That wasn't any attempt to win a ball that was a yard or more away when he was cocking back his leg. That wasn't a soccer play in any way, shape, or form.

    No one ever wins the ball, nor attempts to win the ball with that sort of action, so the very start of the discussion about that action is flawed, if anyone considered that "a challenge," or in any way, a soccer play.

    What Mbappe did probably gets him disqualified from a martial arts tournament.
     
  22. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Real Madrid and Barcelona are two of the three most valuable football teams in the world (Madrid $6.6 billion, Barcelona $5.6 billion) and by far the most valuable teams in Spain. Madrid has been the most valuable team in the world for the last 3 years. The two teams have incredible political influence with Barcelona and its linkage with the Catalan independence movement and Madrid as the nominal club of the Spanish monarchy.

    I think it's pretty clear both clubs are more powerful than RFEF and frankly they act like it.

    As an aside it's really disturbing to have Madrid act like this and I don't like my kids watching the games. During warmups, I heard some kids on my son's team talking about the cup final "Did you see how Rudiger threw ice at the referee? That was sick - I bet he deserved it"

    To his credit the coach called that out right away and said if anyone did that they would be off the team before the referee could get the card out and we had a long talk on the way home about it but it's clear that behavior has reached pretty much every level around the world.
     
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  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    RedStar91 and Dayton Ref repped this.
  24. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yep. Six game league ban. So basically he will miss the first match of next season.
     
  25. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Two-game suspension for Lucas Vázquez, Bellingham's red card revoked (pdf).
     

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