Domestic Leagues 2024-25

Discussion in 'Referee' started by RefIADad, Aug 11, 2024.

  1. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    I don’t see a problem with something like this. It’s just offering a local interpretation about what qualifies as, I assume, “lack of respect for the game.” They’re not making up a new rule, only offering a specific interpretation of a broad existing rule.
     
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  2. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    They aren’t “inventing” anything. They are saying it is USB as provocative behavior towards an an opponent. Whether that is a good interpretation or not, I haven’t a clue as I haven’t seen the context, but it isn’t contrary to the Laws.

    (I doubt it is truly dangerous for professional athletes, but my daughter spent the night in the hospital with a sprained neck after trying to do this at a soccer camp when she was young.)
     
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  3. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    In the end everything (like bad manager and benches behaviour, bad pre-penalty kick behaviour, dissent/captains stuff) comes back to the diminished level of match control that referees have, thanks to deliberate decisions made by FIFA which started about 15yrs ago. Essentially, the Brazilian association are admitting that their referees cannot keep games under control.
     
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  4. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    This isn't a goal celebration or a type of gesture. They are literally telling you what you can and can not do while the ball is in play! They are telling how to play the game! Brazil is telling you that you can not legally play the ball in a certain manner with your feet.

    There is nothing in the LOTG that tell you how you can dribble ball. The rational for the ban is perfectly reasonable, but only FIFA/IFAB can do that.

    This is similar to years ago when a player in a game in the Middle East converted a penalty kick via a back heel I believe.

    US Soccer came out with a memo/memorandum telling referees that the goal should be disallowed a caution given for unsporting behavior. FIFA then came out and said "no, no, only we can do that."

    If you don't see how extreme this is, then I guess I'm just going to be in an island here.
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think if you strip away the attention this gets because star players are involved and just treat it as a national association or competition authority saying "locally, we are treating X as an act that qualifies as lack of respect for the game," it's not that big of a deal. I'm guessing there are a ton of such local instructions or qualifiers that we never hear about. I'm sure that many of us have refereed in leagues that have given such guidance. But you toss in Neymar and put it on the internet and then suddenly it's a big deal.

    I think a better question to be asked is why grown-ass adults have to react violently to a player standing on the ball. Or why a grown-ass adult needs to stand on the ball to show off. One of the two. Or both, maybe.
     
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  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #156 MassachusettsRef, Apr 8, 2025
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2025
    Uh, if we needed further evidence that a lot of us understood VAR better than Jon Moss, click here! https://aleagues.com.au/news/a-leag...ow-card-watch-explained-referee-jon-moss-var/

    This is utterly idiotic.

    First, in MLS the referee would go to the screen to check the offside, so the referee could see the incident and have the right to rescind the yellow card.

    Second... actually, there doesn't need to be a second. Because that's the point. The referee can be sent to the screen even on an objective decision. Yes, MLS is the outlier in the world by requiring the referee go to the screen. But the point is the referee can go to the screen. Debate over.

    But seriously, on the merits I cannot believe this is an argument. The APP is only checked because the decision not to award a penalty is clearly incorrect. Once you get to that trigger, of course the simulation card has to be expunged. The idea that an offside in the build-up, which should have whistled the play dead there, prevents you from rescinding a simulation yellow card that actually occurred during what should have been a stoppage in play AND wasn't simulation at all is so mind-numbingly stupid that it's hard to fathom Jon Moss really believes it. The old saying that common sense isn't that common comes to mind.

    This is the cherry on top, though:

    What?

    You make the illogical argument that you can't overturn this simulation card because of some rigid adherence to protocols (that isn't true) and then you casually just say "well if it was a 2CT, we would have disregarded all those protocols."

    My brain is exploding.
     
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  7. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Real Madrid Alaves game today had 8 yellows and 2 straight SFP reds including mbappe doing one of the most horrific challenges I’ve seen in a long time
     
  8. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member+

    Jun 3, 2001
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    You left out the best part. The on-field call was a yellow. He needed VAR so many times to see the monitor for easy red cards (missed a DOGSO) that he wore out the path to the monitor:



    For the past 10 minutes, I've been watching an alarming number of plays around the world from this weekend that should have been a straight red.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mbappe getting one match for that tackle is something special. I would classify it as an assault. If three is the standard, I’d say it warrants at least one more tacked on. Real Madrid might be right about their club being treated differently, huh?

    Also I’m somewhat confident the missed second red was SFP and not DOGSO. Hard to say DOGSO was clearly satisfied and the OFR focus seemed to be on point and mode of contact. Though I suppose the report is out there…
     
  10. These kind of charges should be liable to a police intervention by arresting him later and being taken to court for being an attack with attempt to cause serious injury.
    Iirc we in the Netherlands had a case of a player, who broke the leg of an apponent so badly it has lasting effects on the health of his victim.
    Try to find info on it. Iirc he got jail time for it.
     
  11. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Yes, second red was serious foul play (report).

    There was also an earlier OFR to annul a Real Madrid goal when Rudiger hip-checked the opposing goalkeeper (from 0:59 here).
     
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  12. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Maybe you’re just saying it jokingly, but if not, What is the protocol for incidents during sports events to be classified as assault versus just happening in the process of a game? I know about Todd Bertuzzi NHL incident 20 years ago because it was so egregiously outside the scope of sports what he did. But a serious foul play incident? And then why wouldn’t all these incidents of violent conduct punching someone in a mass confrontation fall under the definition of assault?

    I guess with mbappe you can see him cocking his leg back
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not saying it jokingly. But I am saying it using the dictionary definition of the word, not tied to any governmental criminal code. Mbappe physically attacked his opponent in my opinion, and pretty intentionally so. That makes it a red card and maybe an extra long suspension. It doesn't mean the criminal justice system comes into play. I think the idea floated above is silly; if you start regularly arresting people for violence during legally sanctioned sporting matches, you will pretty soon not have any legally sanctioned sporting matches.

    Sure, there are extreme examples like the McSorely/Bertuzzi incident. There was also an earlier 1988 incident with Dino Ciccarrelli that led to criminal proceedings. I would note both of those involved attacking a person with a stick. But those are extraordinary, just like situations of referee assault. I'm not a lawyer, but situations and rules would obviously vary jurisdiction to jurisdiction, on when/how/why civil authorities would or could get involved in violence during a sporting event. There is no "protocol" for this.

    I've written more than I planned to. The short story here is that violence happens in sport and barring the most egregious examples or extraordinary circumstances, civil authorities are not going to be and should not be involved. And it has nothing to do with refereeing (barring any obligation to be a witness should such extraordinary circumstances arise, I suppose).

    Oh, and this was a tackle. A bad one, but a tackle. The fact that we're talking about arresting Mbappe is absolutely insane.
     
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  14. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Okay yeah that’s what I figured, not advocating for actual criminal charges to be filed. Although the Bertuzzi one didn’t involve a stick, just grabbing him and sucker punching him from behind yet it still went to court.

    The people freaking out about this wanting him arrested are definitely extreme.
     
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  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ah, right. I was thinking about the McSorely-Brashear incident.
     
  16. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
  17. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know this isn't the point here at all, but I do feel this is a good illustration of my argument that ultimately nothing good comes of sticking microphones in front of referees.

    On the actual issue here, I concede I don't follow Spanish football that closely now, but I understand the clubs and history decently well. So not much in the way of these shenanigans actually surprise me, typically. But I'm pretty shocked by the audacity of Real here. If I've got things right, they've attacked referees relentlessly and publicly with (obviously biased) videos and then when a referee says "hey, that's not good and here's why," their response is to say the referees are (or could be) biased against Real, are "threatening" them," and are stifling their free speech rights? Am I missing anything else major in the story here?
     
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  19. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No I don't think so. I think the core point was when the referee got emotional and said his son came home crying because his classmates were saying his father was a cheat

    "When a child of yours goes to school and there are kids telling him that his father is a 'thief' and comes home crying, it's totally messed up. What I do is try to educate my son, to say that his father is honest, above all honest, who can make mistakes, like any sportsperson."

    What is wild to me is that these accusations are from Real Madrid, who follow the "admit nothing, deny everything, make counter-accusations" school of public relations.

    In an interview with the English investigative journalist Declan Hill, former FIFA referee and Secretary General Michael Zen-Ruffinen said this:

    "I remember when I was a referee, I was in Madrid for a cup game. We were taken to “El Corte Ingles”. It was ten o’clock and the club officials said to us, “Okay, we will be back at one. And until then anything that you buy is on the club bill.” Well, being Swiss, the three of us went and had a coffee but can you imagine..."

    The fact that anyone takes their criticism of officiating seriously is just incredible to me.
     
  20. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Well....as long as the RFEF never punishes them, why would they stop?

    It's classic bullying behavior enable by weak authorities.

    Probably the only thing that would stop them would be a points deduction that would drop them out of the Champions League places, but we know that will never happen.
     
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  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well they are weak authorities. Real Madrid and Barcelona are stronger than the league.
     
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  22. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I urge every one to watch the last sequence in the Copa Del Rey Final in the last minute. VAR chooses to not intervene on an obvious kick/trip by Rudiger in the penalty area.

    Then a minute later the referee awards an, in real time, a pretty obvious penalty. The VAR somehow recommends a review for simulation and they restart with an IFK for simulation. I still don't see what the attacker should have done. Jump over the tackle?

    Also, it's amazing how VAR has neutered Spanish referees. Mejuto Gonzalez, Undiano Mallenco, Mateu Lahoz, and Luis Medina Cantalejo would be embarrassed at the lack of authority and assertiveness.
     
  23. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Of course this match had to have an incident like that
     
  24. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd


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    What an awful and disgusting player. How referees and competition authorities tolerate his dirty play is hard to comprehend.

    Knowing Spain and La Liga, Rudiger will only get a one game suspension in the NEXT Copa Del Rey match (i.e. the first match next year against some third division team) instead of the next La Liga match.
     
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