Dogso-f

Discussion in 'Referee' started by refontherun, May 18, 2009.

  1. refontherun

    refontherun Member+

    Jul 14, 2005
    Georgia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This situation happened in a 6v6 men's over 38 game tonight, but I think these games are very good learning tools. I always come out of them seeing situations that don't come up in other games, even upper level.

    It's been a pretty cordial game so far. Short periods where the temperature rises for a couple of minutes, but nothing extraordinary. Last minute of the match, trailing team is attacking goal. As I stopped about four feet outside the center of the small penalty area. A pass comes in from my right rear, and an attacker attempted to run from my left between me and one of his teammates who is about on the PA line, on to the pass. I hear contact behind me, and attacker goes flying past, obviously tripped. (Key point) as he goes down just to my right, a defender simultaneously comes in just behind the ball, and is taken down by the stumbling attacker.

    I spun around and cautioned the defender immediately behind me; the only one capable of commiting the trip on the attacker and the tactical foul. The final contact with the defender happened after the foul, but figures in to the ultimate decision.

    The attacker that was fouled claimed DOGSO-F, but my immediate thought was that, even though a defender came from behind the play, he arrived at the point of where the attacker would have intercepted the ball at the same time as the ball, and therefore had taken away the OGSO.

    Any thoughts are appreciated.
     
  2. DWickham

    DWickham Member

    Dec 26, 2003
    San Diego
    First lesson learned. The most dangerous attacker is often not the one with the ball. Defenders know it, and will foul someone who beats them off the ball. In order to see what happened you need to be wider and, where possible, behind the passer.

    Second lesson not learned. How can you call what you did not see? A very good attacker can trip himself to get a call if the attacker thinks the defense has superior position or numbers. Eye contact with the AR could confirm what you deduce happened (if you had an AR in 6 x 6). When you are by yourself, your positioning has to adjust to reflect one set of eyes rather than three. Having a good angle of view becomes more valuable than being as close to play.

    Third lesson from a 2008 USSF Lessons Learned. In considering DOGSO by free kick offense, the referee may count a defender who ITOOTR had an opportunity to make a play on the ball even if that defender was not closer to his own goal at the moment of the foul. Thus, one of the D's (for number of defenders) might be missing even if D for distance to the ball and D for direction to goal were met.
     
  3. jkc313

    jkc313 Member

    Nov 21, 2001
    You called something behind you that you did not see. How can you justify that? the player could have tripped on a rock as far as you know.
    As far as the DOGSO, I'm not sure the 4 Ds are there but it does seem that the foul you called on the defender you did not see certainly could have been DOGSO, which you also didn't see
     
  4. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    You didn't see it.

    What if the attacker tripped over his own two feet? You make a big assumption that is dangerous. If you get lucky, you get away with this one, if you don't then you're ruining the game.
     
  5. ColumbusSoccerRef

    ColumbusSoccerRef New Member

    Jun 16, 2008
    I'm with JKC & Dwickham in that you simply cannot call something you did not see. It sucks and you'll take a LOT of heat, but that's the deal. As such, my question goes to why you didn't see it.

    When you say "A pass comes in from my right rear, and an attacker attempted to run from my left between me and one of his teammates who is about on the PA line, on to the pass." If the pass came in from your right rear it tells me something about your position. . .first, that you almost certainly have your back to the ball as it's played in. Never a good thing. You really want to keep the ball - and where play is going - in view all the time. Second, if you're only 4 feet (just over a yard) from the center of the PA you almost certainly need to get out wider. This wider view should allow you to keep the entire play in your vision. I've found it easier to get wide and then come in as needed to follow play than it is to start out with too central of a position and then have to get wider.

    And to go along with what USSF Ref said, this was a game-critical decision. It's essential that we get these right.

    -- CSR
     
  6. dadman

    dadman Yo soy un papa

    DC United
    United States
    Apr 13, 2001
    Reston, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just my contribution from the sidelines at my son's U16 game a few years ago about that that "calling something you can't see."

    There was a midfielder on the opposing team who was doing a lot of off-the-ball contact. Big kid, obviously using his size and physicality as a tactic to intimidate. The CR was a solo with club ARs and was doing all he could to keep an eye on play, but the opposing midfielder knew the situation and only shoved or tripped or clipped when the CR's back was turned. Of course, everyone else can see it and as the game progresses, there's more and more muttering from our bench.

    About twenty minutes in, play comes down the near sideline with my son's team in possession, the CR positioned well. The player releases the ball forward for a striker, and just after the CR turns to follow play, Big Midfielder cleans out the passer.

    Much yelling from my sideline, to which I comment, "Hey, he can't call what he doesn't see." Pass forward is defended out for a throw-in, and the CR immediately turns and challenges me: "What did you say!?"

    Oops. I'm sure he was aware of the rising temperature along the sideline and was looking to quash dissent, and rightfully so.

    So I apologize and tell him, respectfully, that I'm just reminding the people here on the sideline that the LOTG don't allow him to call fouls he does not see. I also tell him I empathize with his position as a solo, he's calling a good game, and I hope he'll talk to the club ARs at the half, even if they are club ARs, about the stuff happening behind his back. Sorry, sorry, sorry. His body language relaxes and he turns back to the field to see to the restart.

    At the half, he does wave over the ARs (for which I take no credit: he likely would have done anyway—he was calling a good game and obviously took his responsibilities seriously).

    Anyway, I've rambled on, and I apologize. I've always tried to talk about the LOTG with the parents and players in the U11 through U17 leagues in which my son played. The point raised above about calling something you don't see is something that by-the-book is forbidden. The realities of a solo center may call for some creative calls, for fairness, or based on experience, or player body language, so I can sympathize with the OP.

    Now if he can sell fact that he really does have eyes in the back of his head, he can sell the call. :)

    I'll shut up now and cede the field to those with credentials.
     
  7. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    One of the management tools I've used in situations like this, is to pull a grumbling player aside, usually a "calmer" one who is indicating I am not calling something, usually by "can you watch the hands/trip/elbow/insert your favorite here" and simply tell them: "look there's one of me and 22 of you, I can't see everyone all the time. If I am missing something, I'm sorry, but asking me to "watch the hands" isn't helpful, can you give me more info? Like watch "so and so", I can always alter my position or what I look at to see if he is actually doing something"

    This does two things:

    1) Gets a player on your "side", you acknowledge that in fact you might be missing things.
    2) Gets you more information to use going forward.
     
  8. refontherun

    refontherun Member+

    Jul 14, 2005
    Georgia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm with all of you on the fact I really didn't see the foul, but I guess I did get lucky because there was barely a peep out of the cautioned players team. I acted pretty much on gut reaction to what was going on around me. It was a one man on a small (u10 size) field. Alot of quick 360 degree passing. That's how I got frozen above the PA line. I thought I sensed a potential hot spot on the goal line, and the ball ended up coming back out farther than I expected and back into the scenario from a one touch pass.

    After some consideration, the point I think I'm trying to get at is trying to come up with the 4Ds. With the ball and the attacker coming from two different directions, then throwing in the defender coming in following the ball. Since the attacker was not actually in possession of the ball, and his direction was generally, but not directly toward the goal. Even if I had been behind the defender commiting the foul, and was able to clearly see it happen, could it still be DOGSO?

    I know this is YHTBT material, but you are all quite good at tempering the LOTG and related material with opinion and experience, banter, and humor to come up with some pretty good common sense answers to difficult questions.
     
  9. ColumbusSoccerRef

    ColumbusSoccerRef New Member

    Jun 16, 2008
    If I'm reading this right, the answer is no. . .you can not have DOGSO if the foul is on a player who does not have the ball within reasonable playing distance. Of the 4 Ds, one of them is Distance to ball. Think of it this way, if a player does not have possession of the ball - or a reasonable play on the ball - how can he have an obvious goal-scoring opportunity?

    Remember, to have DOGSO the goal-scoring opportunity has to be obvious. If a player doesn't have the ball, you may have a goal-scoring opportunity but not an obvious goal scoring opportunity (from that player).

    -- CSR
     
  10. jkc313

    jkc313 Member

    Nov 21, 2001
    Distance to the ball is one of the Ds and the attacker didn't have possession of the ball so I don't see a DOGSO here. You also state direction may not have been toward the goal. If you're going to send a player off, you have to be CERTAIN of the reason
     
  11. refontherun

    refontherun Member+

    Jul 14, 2005
    Georgia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks all. I was thinking along the same lines. Sure, it was a very good opportunity given the small field, distance from the goal, and skill of the player. I was mainly interested in opinions on the ball possession issue, which has been addressed.
     

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