If the likes of Tony Adams, Sol Campbell, John Terry, Nemanja Vidic, Rio Ferdinand, ad Vincent Kompany don't get to be considered all-time greats, why would VVD be? He didn't get a chance to show off his skills at the very top level until he's 27. I don't think he's going to stay at the top for long enough to be in contention. Otherwise, where do you put the names I've listed, which played at the level he's playing, but all for much longer (in the case of Campbell, Terry, Adams, and Ferdinand, it was all for about a decade).
This is overall a good point, but; Vincent Kompany has his own story. Was already very good at a young age (many have ignored or forgotten this), but has been struggling with fitness after he turned 26. To some it looks he has forgotten how to defend. Rio Ferdinand cut out (most of) his lapses and 'errors leading to goal' when Vidic joined him (progressing to a point he was still solid without Vidic). He was 27-28. Then he started winning things. Campbell didn't play for a top team until he was 27. Before that he played for a team finishing 10th to 14th, although significantly he also had a good/impressive 1998 World Cup, with a bizarrely cancelled goal (his euro 2000 was fifty-fifty imho, especially against Portugal). He looked to me more solid defensively as well as more progressive with the ball in an England shirt, in the 1997 qualifiers against Italy too. With some players I'm not so sure whether they are better for the national team, but for him I'd say 'yes'. This 'poor' Tottenham team factually did as well in the 31 games he was forced to miss. I'd say that is not a trivial fact. This is arguably different for VvD at Southampton (placed 6th - 8th in those seasons), per OPTA a significant decline in results in the 29 games he missed. Furthermore, Southampton has dropped down from mid table halfway 2017-18 to 17th at the end, and 18th halfway 2018-19. When taking this together that's quite an outstanding performance effect. Same has happened for Liverpool. Both WhoScored and SofaScore (I do not claim they are perfect) has rated him as the best defender of the league for three seasons now. In fairness, when he was at Celtic I wasn't convinced about him, although looking back at it in hindsight I have to say he had some influential Champions League performances for Celtic (something that I ignored back then). https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/talent-scout.1870743/#post-31639672 I stand however by the assessment that he wasn't seen as a great talent when he was playing at home (therefore also not poached at the age of 15 and then subsequently ruined in an academy that prioritizes English, American, Brazilian boys anyway for financial reasons). (I'll answer the OP question next, in relation to previous defenders of his country)
Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler @PDG1978 also asked me this (and hinted carefully with provisions at his own idea) He has potential to be seen as the best defender since Stam and De Boer. Bookmakers are currently tipping him for winning the PFA and FWA trophy which - if it becomes reality - will solidify this idea. Maybe I'm wrong but think comparisons with Rijkaard will be out of the question, who was I think a better footballer and has a boys book career trajectory. Of course his winning goal against Everton on his debut helped for his popularity, as well as that fluky shot on the crossbar against the same team (winning the game). I strongly believe his main competence is to combine decent skills on the ball with defensive solidity (while playing with many different partners and full-backs!). I think that combination is the key to understanding him. Here below some things to back up this assertion: ----------- In 101 league appearances (as well as Champions League games) he has yet to register an 'error leading to goal' and that is definitely a very rare combination, even more so with the context factored in (more difficult with many different partners and full-backs, for Southampton, or a top team without Mourinho as manager etc.). The new goalkeeper Allison is already on two errors leading to a goal (which is btw still okay). ----------- 71.9% - Since joining the Premier League in September 2015, Virgil van Dijk has recorded a higher duel success percentage than any other player (min. 50 PL apps). Red.— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) December 27, 2017 5 - Top players for duel success rate in the 2017-18 Premier League (min. 250 duels):72.3% - Virgil van Dijk (@LFC)71.9% - Kurt Zouma (@stokecity)67.9% - Jan Vertonghen (@SpursOfficial)66.7% - James Tarkowski (@BurnleyOfficial)66.7% - Jamaal Lascelles (@NUFC)Solid. pic.twitter.com/JlGKvLUjRs— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) May 14, 2018 ----------- December 2018: Virgil van Dijk for Liverpool in the Premier League since his debut: Most touches (2,846) Most minutes (2,845) Most passes (2,471) Most duels won (213) Most clearances (173) Most aerial duels won (155) Most interceptions (38) Most shots blocked (13) https://twitter.com/Squawka/status/1076235365776871424 ----------- December 2017: "According to Opta, Van Dijk is one of only four centre-backs to play more than 60 Premier League games in the last three seasons without making a single error leading to a goal. Lovren has made three such mistakes. An error-free defender would make a big difference. [currently: 101 EPL games played, 0 errors] [...] Despite making significantly more combined tackles and interceptions per 90 minutes than Liverpool's centre-backs last season, Van Dijk was beaten on remarkably few occasions. In fact, he was dribbled past only six times last term. That happened to Lovren 17 times. [...] Van Dijk could change that. His long-pass accuracy was the best by any defender in the Premier League last season and far superior to any of the other options at Klopp's disposal. If Van Dijk can help to spring the Liverpool counter-attack, this could be invaluable." https://www.skysports.com/football/...ool-how-he-can-improve-liverpool8217s-defence June 2017: https://www.skysports.com/football/...wanted-by-liverpool-what-makes-him-so-special (after quickly scanning & remembering it basically mentioned the same things) ------------- December 2017 (again): The stats also back up that assessment as when it comes to various categories, with Van Dijk’s figures impressive to say the least. Since signing for the Saints, Van Dijk has started 66 Premier League games during which the Saints have a 40 percent victory rate. Without him [29 games] that rate drops to just 27 percent. In the 2015/16 season Van Dijk won more aerial duels than any other player in the Premier Leagues, while he is one of just four Premier League center backs who have played more than 60 games in the last three seasons not to have committed an error that resulted in a goal. Van Dijjk is known as a ball playing defender, with comparisons made to Rio Ferdinand. Watching any highlight reel of the Dutch star also backs this up, with his positioning and ability to read the game shining through almost immediately. Again the stats confirm this, Van Dijk has made 179 interceptions since his Premier League debut, more than any of his new teammates. Passing is also a strength, with the Dutch international extremely comfortable bringing the ball out from the back, while possessing the best long-range passing accuracy of any Premier League central defender last season at 62.6 percent. https://www.foxsportsasia.com/football/premier-league/767437/can-van-dijk-make-difference/ ------------- I think Koulibaly falls in that same category and bracket of being very reliable defensively and solid ability with the ball. Maybe that Koulibaly is a better athlete and an even more fearful stopper, and VvD more of an organizer and 'leader' (yes, that is a big word).
Even if I grant VVD being the better player (not saying you're claiming he is) I just don't see how VVD can become a potential all-time great when defenders who achieved more than he has haven't even come close. Tony Adams was one of the best defenders in Europe in a team that generally challenged for titles and played in European competitions for over 10 years, and he's not an all-time great. Vidic and Ferdinand have won many league titles, been to 3 UCL finals, winning one, and Vidic have even been named best player in the league, and they are not considered all-time greats. Sol Campbell, in addition to being one of the best in the league for a long time, has an all-star performance at both World Cup and EURO. John Terry has countless titles, a PFA PotY, a World Cup all-star, and over a decade of captaincy. All of these guys have achieved so much, yet when all-time great defenders are discussed, they never come close to the Baresi, Moore, Figueroa, or Krol of this world. We don't even know if VVD can match the EPL greats in achievements, so I highly doubt he'll overtake them all in the all-time ranking.
I guess the first thing we'd have to do is define what's an all-timer. I would have nominated every player mentioned here as all-timers, but I guess I have no standards.
haha... yeah, I had the same exact reaction. i.e. if he hits the level of John Terry, Rio Ferdinand, etc. doesn't that make him an all-time legend? He has a long way to go in terms of leading his team to major titles, but its still very possible in the time that he has left...
Yeah, he's got plenty of time left. What people may not think about often is that even all-timers like Baresi were close to 30 before they became the top guy, let alone an all-time guy. Morten Olsen was over 30! Interesting quote from some journo pertaining to late bloomers like VVD: “Diego Godín has gone through the natural evolution that defenders who don’t play for the very top teams always go through. No one notices them at first, and then they turn thirty and all of a sudden they start getting credit, and then they start getting old and bad, yet people continue to go on and on about how wonderful they are.” Haven't thought about this, but something to keep in mind.
Isn’t this all premature and a complete overreaction from everyone? I remember a few years ago when dimitri payet was performing reasonably well for West Ham and had one great performance vs Romania in Euro 2016 everyone here lost their minds and dared to say he was at zinedine zidanes level LOL Really nobody does it better than the British media when it comes to overhyping the flavour of the month. It’s only been half a season and VVD has been (from my recollection) mostly impressive against premier league opposition In the champions league this season Liverpool have looked far from convincing even struggling to qualify Really I think it’s only fair to assess him after one full season at a World class level
Probably the reason why defenders like Baresi, Beckenbauer, Scirea, Maldini, Passarella etc were ranked head and shoulders above others is because of their versatility in the pitch. They could play anywhere from CB to the midfield and were well adept to scoring goals. Something modern defenders lack or don't consider to be important anymore
This is not true, in the EPL at least. Someone like Ferdinand used to be pretty a pretty special talent, but now all of the top6 teams have defenders who could play the ball just as well, if not better than him. Man City and Spurs in fact have two starters who are very good with the ball. Looking around Europe, I still see someone like Bonucci being very highly rated in Serie A. In Germany, the pair of Boateng and Hummels was very versatile and very good with the ball. In Spain, both Barcelona and Madrid have such a pair of CBs as well.
Being good with the ball is one thing and being Der Kaiser is something else entirely Bonucci, Pique and Boateng are the most error prone defenders I've seen in my life tbh
I answered your point which I quoted then you change the topic? You mentioned versatility and ball playing skills, which I've shown are clearly not lacking in today's game, especially when you compare it to the 1995-2005 era. You're also overrating how error-free the legends are. If you actually sit down to watch full games of them (say Milan 88-94) you will see PLENTY of defensive mistakes. You think Sacchi's Milan was able to concede roughly the same amount of GPG as today's elite teams without their defenders making mistakes, and the opponents just making 20+ good goals a season? In a world where so many pundits are saying 'the art of defending is dying' it is interesting that elite teams are scoring more goals than they have in decades, while conceding no more goals than the allegedly legendary backlines of the past. The top teams of today are leaving their defenders more exposed than ever, and more demanding of their defenders ball playing skills than ever. You're not giving the modern defenders their due credit.
Milan 87/88 remains unmatched as far as I know in terms of best defensive records Chelsea 2004/05 got close but that was more down Peter cech being in legendary form and going on a ten consecutive game run without conceding a single goal Super teams like Madrid/Barcelona/Bayern score a lot but also concede much more than the best defensive units in modern history
Milan conceded 14 in 30 games, while Chelsea 04-05 conceded 15 in 38 games. Chelsea was even better. Do you have stats on the amount of chances and big chances each side conceded, and the saves the respective GKs made, to actually know if Milan's defensive record was based on their backline, and Chelsea on their GK? Also, Chelsea scored 29 more goals in 8 more games. So Chelsea 04-05 not only had a better defense, but also offensive record. There's also Arsenal 98/99 who with 17 goals in 38 games, also had superior GPG conceded to Milan. With 59 goals in 38 games, that Arsenal team also had superior GPG to Milan of 87/88.
This requires more research and tbh I’m not one to overhype certain players/teams only because they played in previous eras (Older does not always equate into better )and you have a point that fanboys of classic players will not post their bad touches on the ball or bad performances I don’t have the stats you are looking for but like I said this matter and the careers of other players need more looking into
I did not concluded anywhere that modern defenders are inferior to the older ones. Infact they are suprisingly efficient despite of the back pass rules and less physical games compared to the past. For example the 2018 WC had 2.64 GPG (despite 12 own goals, 32 team format, VAR etc) while the 1986 WC had 2.54 GPG. Where's the huge difference?
For clarity: you won't hear me claiming he is of that level. I'll go over some of the general points tomorrow. Lot of ground to 'discuss'.
Here a start. I agree we have to be careful (will come to it later), but; 1) It is not a half season. It is already a full year in total. 2) That they reached the CL final was for a part thanks to him. Yes there was Salah as obvious difference maker but similarly, take VvD away and it is pretty obvious they don't reach the final either (last time an English side did was in 2012, remember). He also played well in the final itself and none of the Madrid goals can be blamed on the defenders (overhead kick + goalkeeper blunders). 3) He has obviously done well for the national side (3 goals against Portugal and Germany) when given the chance. Including that the abysmal defeats have come when he didn't play. 4) When he was at Southampton they were among 'best of the rest' standing (6th - 8th) in the league, and clearly they didn't do as well when he was out of the side, or now after his departure. 5) His time and league titles at Celtic is hard to really rate, but at least played well (and impressed) in Europe and was also tangibly a difference maker. You can wonder why he didn't make directly a jump to a top team then, but that question and answer has many substantial angles. Yes, as you have read above I think it is practically impossible he'll reach Rijkaard (by extension thus also those names). Principally it needs to be established he wasn't seen as a great talent when he was young. He can play a nice pass but wasn't seen as a particularly talented center back. This was maybe actually helpful since that prevented he left the country as a teenager (poached by the big clubs, and if necessary those cartel clubs also apply intimidation tactics and threats about future career prospects - this is a proven fact). Pretty much all of the best players from 'smaller' countries like KDB, Modric, Lewandowski etc. played all their teenager years in their own country. It's most probably not coincidental. Is it really impossible to become a Premier League great? Some of those 'all-time' guys don't have that many titles or major finals. If we look at the British players, then it is not like titles always equate to a higher standing. Someone like Alan Hansen has 8 league titles and 3 European Cups, but hasn't created a distance to the other British defenders without a truly significant national team career. There is more to it than titles. VvD could have gone to Juventus or Manchester City as well. Then he had already a league title, does that make him better? (to be continued tomorrow...)
Is Rijkaard considered mainly a CB in the Netherlands? I know he played it at the beginning and end of his career, but I've mostly associated him as a DM. Could VVD even reach the level of Stam? This is a possibility, but I don't think he'll overtake the current ones due to lack of longevity at the top level. He can never match Tony Adams and John Terry for sheer number of games, for example. I'm not even sure if he'll have 8 seasons of competing for the league and UCL as Vidic did because his time with Southampton will probably won't be counted. He might be able to match Stam or Desailly. Two players who never had the longevity to seriously compete for EPL all-time XI, but are both considered two of the best to ever play in the league. No it wouldn't (unless of course Allegri or Pep can improve him, which is not impossible) but it would make him greater, for sure. However, if he can win the league and the UCL with Liverpool, he would be heralded even more than doing the same with Juventus or Man City.