Does Rumsfeld know what he's doing?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by MikeLastort2, Mar 25, 2003.

  1. MikeLastort2

    MikeLastort2 Member

    Mar 28, 2002
    Takoma Park, MD
    Just a simple poll.
     
  2. Dante

    Dante Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Upstate NY
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think he does in some instances and he doesn't in others...
     
  3. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    Not just no, HELL no.

    Is that ghoul still going on TV ordering Iraqis not to burn the oil fields, or else?
     
  4. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    Segroves seems to know a lot about what happens in Iraq. There's got to be a leak.
     
  5. DJPoopypants

    DJPoopypants New Member

    I think its tough to answer this without knowing where directions/decision/etc came from.

    I'll grant that not being able to roll tanks through Turkey and came from 2 different directions was a very late wrench thrown in our plans.

    But there's a lot of questions in my mind.

    a) Who argued that we should invade anyway?
    b) Why did the army planners feel that civilians would welcome us and our supply line would be secure?
    c) Did we not pre-bomb for weeks like GW1 because Iraq would have destroyed oil infrastructure, or because we were truly concerned about civilian casualties?
    d) What's the deal with the Kurds up north - if we fight with them, what happens when Turkish/Kurdish tensions come to fighting?
     
  6. -cman-

    -cman- New Member

    Apr 2, 2001
    Clinton, Iowa
    Four divisions strung out over 300 miles of desert with large urban centers in the rear of the van largely under the control of regular and irregular enemy forces?

    The guy's a frigging genius. No one would expect that.

    Edit: Oh, and your two heaviest, most advanced divisions? Sitting on their asses in barracks with all their gear floating around the Persian Gulf. Take that, Saddam!
     
  7. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Is this the famous "rolling deployment" we were hearing so much about?
     
  8. obie

    obie New Member

    Nov 18, 1998
    NY, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Remember how people complained about Clinton making policy decisions by focus group? This is the first war being waged by focus group.

    "Tell me, when you think of cities in Iraq, what do you think?"
    "Baghdad."
    "Any others?"
    "Nope, not a one."
    "OK then, we will march toward Baghdad."

    Problem is, they should have included some Iraqis in that focus group because by almost all accounts they friggin' hate us as much as Saddam right about now.

    http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1085007,00.html

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2882579.stm
     
  9. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    I'm sure we'll find out the answer to this question soon enough.
     
  10. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Rumsfeld knows exactly what he is doing. It is evil, but it is a complete plan and being carried out as well as can be considered.
    This is inevitable when you push units to move that fast for 500 miles. There was a chance that there would be mass surrenders, and if there were this would be the best way to force lots of them before Iraq could regroup. If not, nothing lost. Heck, the Iraqis attacked the spread and disorganized line and all they did was scratch a few APCs while losing a couple hundred troops.
     
  11. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO

    Dan your a moron. I love it when random people criticize and second guess what experienced military experts do and say.

    I am not saying that thinking for yourself is bad, just have the common sense to know when you dont know what you are talking about, and let the experts deal with the specifics...

    Somehow I think our military is in the best hands possible,.. just a hunch.
     
  12. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Franks, a general, wanted 500,000 troops. Rumsfeld, a pilot 45 years ago, wanted 250,000. So my question to you is: whose best hands?
     
  13. joseph pakovits

    joseph pakovits New Member

    Apr 29, 1999
    fly-over country
    A Public Service Announcement

    If you're going to call someone a moron, you can lessen the Unintentional Comedy factor by using correct English in your insult.
     
  14. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO
    Re: A Public Service Announcement

    Spelling Smack:

    Joe 1
    Me 0

    Congrats on the major victory joe......
     
  15. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO
    Do you know the reasons for the discrepancy? There are an infinite number of possibilites for this, that we arent not aware of. The point is, both have proved capable in the past, and represent the best options we have at the moment.
    FYI: I would support this view in any administration..
     
  16. Tea Men Tom

    Tea Men Tom Member+

    Feb 14, 2001
    I'm not sure it makes sense to criticize Rumsfeld unless things are going bad on the battlefield. So far, despite some reports of Iraqi resistance, it doesn't look like this is the case.

    As has been stated, once the war starts you end up tossing the original gameplan out the window and reacting to what's going on.

    If something's not working, you adjust.

    We're only a week into this. We know it's not going to be easy. Give it time.
     
  17. MikeLastort2

    MikeLastort2 Member

    Mar 28, 2002
    Takoma Park, MD
    So we should only criticize Rumsfeld if lots and lots of Americans die or some of our objectives aren't met?

    Do you mind if we mention the fact that generals who have been in combat, some against Iraq 12 years ago, recommended a force more double the size of the one Rumsfeld wanted?

    How about if we mention that it's important to have at least a company or two of MPs behind the advancing columns to deal with enemy POWs and to deal with friendly troops commiting crimes?

    What about mentioning that Patton's advances during WWII had to be temporarily halted so the supply trucks could catch up to him, and that it would be silly for a modern force to have not learned from that tactical error?

    There are lots of reasons to criticize Rumsfeld and his tactics. I think it's better to do that now, before something horrible happens, that it is to do so after something horrible happens.

    Of course, YMMV.
     
  18. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO
    YMMV?
     
  19. Tea Men Tom

    Tea Men Tom Member+

    Feb 14, 2001
    My point is we're only a few days into this. We probably have made some mistakes and we'll make some more. I'm guessing the Iraqi's have made mistakes too.

    If errors are made, you adjust. If the analysts are, in fact, right, let's see how Rumsfeld adjusts.

    I just think it's way too early to question Rumsfeld's competence. We won't be able to judge how he did till this thing's over.
     
  20. MikeLastort2

    MikeLastort2 Member

    Mar 28, 2002
    Takoma Park, MD
    Your milage may vary.
     
  21. MikeLastort2

    MikeLastort2 Member

    Mar 28, 2002
    Takoma Park, MD
    And my point is that by the time it's over it might be too late.

    It will certainly be too late for those who could have been preventable casualities (and their friends and families).

    How many US troops were shot and/or shot at by Iraqi troops who "surrendered" without really surrendering? If we had had enough forces, whether or not telling Iraqis to go home would've been irrelevant.
     
  22. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh NC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not what's going on on the battlefield that's the problem. He made his mistake in reading the psyche of the Iraqi population and the Iraqi conscripts.
     
  23. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO
    way to early to prove this.. impossible to establish at this stage..
     
  24. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    NPR's reporting that Rumsfeld originally only wanted 60K troops in Iraq.
     
  25. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh NC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    no no no...at this point, there's a very real chance that the only way we can win this war without reinforcements* is to flatten Baghdad. As I'm reading all of the news reports and such, we don't have enough soldiers to defeat the Iraqi army without using our air superiority to demolish Baghdad, to denude it of the cover necessary for successful urban warfare defense. And you just cannot say with a straight face that we have to destroy Baghdad in order to save it.

    Gringo...are you sure about that? I'd read 50,000. Maybe what I read was ground troops, and yours was total. Or I forgot.

    *I read an article this morning, I think in the NYT, that the generally accepted practice for successful offensive urban warfare is to outnumber the enemy 9 to 1. I think it goes without saying that we don't have that kind of numerical superiority.
     

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