Does Retirement overhypes?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by poetgooner, Dec 2, 2016.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Would say his national team career is in danger to be underrated (what he did outside 2010 and 2014) and club career somewhat overrated. Looking at his match ratings, he has even more like those Barca 2013 performances for the national team as in the crucial Champions League games.
    Would say he received two of his four 'World Class' ratings on the back of his national team displays in 2010 and 2014 (even though he didn't play everything) rather than getting dismantled with 3-0 by Dortmund and 4-0 by Real Madrid in the 2nd half of the 2013-14 season.

    Although in e.g. Perarnau his books Lahm comes out much better (as does Robben, about who it's said he was the only one to reach his 'normal' level against Real Madrid in 2014; just as in other games of equal/superior opponents with own team not having the clear upper hand) than Schweinsteiger, who didn't fit as well in Guardiola his plans, couldn't offer the control and patience he wanted.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Although he is just like Zidane a proper legend (but really better as a full-back imho), this remains a classic:





    One can add 2-3 fouls per match to this number as well

    (btw, more active and tackling defenders are not necessarily worse; some of the best like Koulibaly and VvD have interchanged both styles in their career depending on club and partner, while maintaining-or-not a very low fouls conceded count).
     
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Marco Van basten Serie A 1990/91
    26/27 years old
    Peak
    20220726_144616.JPG

    Went on a barren streak of scoring 1 non penalty goal+1 assist in 11 Serie A matches
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/marco-van-basten/leistungsdaten/spieler/74471/plus/0?saison=1990




    Cristiano Ronaldo EPL 2021/2022
    36/37 years old
    Decline
    20220726_144659.JPG

    Went on a barren streak of scoring 1 non penalty goal+1 assist in 9 premier league matches

    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cri...21&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=


    One barren streak is perceived as being part of a legendary peak
    The other is universally perceived as being part of a decline(and he is still criticised for this)
     
  4. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    There's been a number of very high profile retirees since then.

    Among the strikers, how do you think RvP, Eto'o, Aguero, David Villa, Torres, and Rooney will be compared to each other?

    I think names like Xavi and Robben are pretty safe. They have so many achievements, big club fans backing, and highlight reels to keep them going for a long time.

    I think someone like Sneijder might be more vulnerable, and also Daniele De Rossi. There is probably a case to be made that Sneijder could be overhyped at times, with some calling him to be the worthy winner of the 2010 BDO. How much that will do for his legacy remains to be seen.

    Even Schweinsteiger could be in danger since his latter years with Man Utd and in the US probably eroded some of his fonder memories.

    There is an interesting rivalry there between Cole and Evra. I much prefer the former, but can see why others would rate the latter more highly. I think Cole is in a safer position though. Having played for both Arsenal and Chelsea, the EPL media will keep him relevant for a long time.

    Lastly, Cech and Casillas. I think the latter is very safe. His resume is impeccable, and there might even be a possibility that he could get overrated with time. No idea how Cech will be perceived, honestly. Could easily see him being a bit forgotten 10 years from now, but his Chelsea/EPL connection is so strong, it should provide him some immunity.
     
  5. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    #205 Sexy Beast, Aug 15, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2022
    Cristiano Ronaldo 2015: goalscoring peak, age 30, 1 non-penalty goal, 2 assists in 7 games

    [​IMG]
    check screen size online

    La liga 2014/15 - 2,66 goals per game
    Serie A 1990/91 - 2,29 goals per game

    Scoring rate:

    Real Madrid 2014/15 - 3,11 goals per game
    Milan 1990/91 - 1,36 goals per game

    Van Basten played in a low scoring Serie A era for the team that scores at the rate of 1,36 goals per game. Only 4th best goalscoring team that season, while Ronaldo, in his most impressive goalscoring season of all time, played in a substantially more goalscoring la liga for a superteam that vastly exceeds relative offensive power of Milan that season.
     
  6. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #206 carlito86, Aug 15, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2022
    His Goalscoring peak was in 2015?

    CAuMmAaVEAAevpc.jpg
    2014_12_La-Liga-Season.jpg


    He hasn't been at a ATG level since January 2015 except in short periods(the last third of 2016/17 and 2017/18)

    2015(the calender year) was just normal world world class and far removed from his peak
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    These types of strikers appear in every generation

    Before In 2000-2005 there was Christian vieri,Roy makaay,Ruud van nistelrooy,andriy shevchenco and Raul

    They marked a generation as one of the best in their position but that's it.
    They are not underrated or overrated

    Everyone knows who they are and what they achieved
     
  8. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I meant that season, 2014/15 in which he scored 61 goals in 54 games. Literally the highest season tally of his career and the best goal per game ratio. As you showed 25 goals in first 14 la liga games in 2014/15 is insane.

    His 2015/16 was also amazing, especially if I remember correctly, the second part of the la liga campaign with some of the most memorable performances like 4 goals vs Celta somewhere around february 2016.. he also scored 5 goals against granada in October of 2015 or something like that..

    the point is that that 7 game period in which he scored 1 non penalty goal and gave 2 assists is during his goalscoring prime.
     
  9. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think with time, one or two of them do gets more spotlight than others, justifiably so or not. From that list, I think it's clear Shevchenko and Raul are rated the most highly, followed by Ruud.

    Honestly, I don't think RvP or Torres will be remembered too well. The former was probably too injury prone and the latter had too many post-Liverpool seasons that were underwhelming.

    Eto'o will probably have the best standing of that list.

    I'm most interested in the Aguero vs Rooney talk 10 years from now. Could swing either way. I can definitely see Aguero being pushed down the rankings for not being able to "step up" for NT and in the UCL.
     
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #210 carlito86, Aug 16, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
    Wayne Rooney 2002-2012 did too much damage at all levels in club football to be forgotten in a hurry

    I envisage he'll be remembered fondly by the generation who saw him live and the one that follows them

    Sergio agueros legacy is essentially tied to one moment in 2011/12(his last minute goal vs QPR)

    QPR have played 2 premier league campaigns in the 21st century

    In 2011/12 they were relegated
    In 2014/15 they were relegated

    Aguero scored the goal in extra time to win the premier league against Manchester United
    But he didn't score the goal against Manchester United

    It was against QPR on the final day of the season who literally had nothing to play for except 'professional pride'



    If we delve deeper Aguero scored 21 non penalty league goals only once in his career (2014/15)
    Rooney has 2 seasons(2009/10 and 2011/12)

    Aguero had only 2 seasons with 10 league assists(Rooney has 5)

    Aguero never scored in a champions league final or FA cup final
    Wayne Rooney scored in 2 FA cup finals vs elite versions of Arsenal and Chelsea
    And in a champions league final vs arguably the best ever version of FC Barcelona


    Wayne Rooney literally has assists or goals in the CL KO stages against
    Real Madrid
    Barcelona
    A.C. Milan
    Inter Milan
    Chelsea
    Roma
    Arsenal


    He did this to your team at 16 years old


    I could list 10 iconic moments of his career that will stand the test of time


    Agree on Fernando Torres
    RVP wasn't a real CF until the last portion of his career
    His profile is that of a Forward IMO

    These 3 players reached a level Aguero simply didn't reach

    Cases could also be made for Robert lewandowski,Luis Suarez,Zlatan ibrahimovic,Edison Cavani,Radamel falcao,David villa and Karim Benzema

    Possibly even Harry kane
    Even peak di natale playing for udinese was arguably more impressive then any version of Aguero

    2011_6_europeallstar.png

    https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/ckHUAuIzDEeDFjtk0gebfg/Show/Europe-All-Star-XI-for-Season-201011

    He is a great name to start with when you talk about forgotten great players

    In short
    Aguero was a great player but not unique within the context of his era
    He scored alot of league goals for a overpowered Manchester City team at a time the premier league was a distant second best to la liga

    Premier league teams were routinely humiliated by la liga teams for the vast majority of Agueros time in England
    That's my take at least
     
  11. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think the reverse logic will be at play though.

    That moment against QPR does A LOT for his legacy, I think. And five years from now, once the 10-year-olds turn 15, they'll see his goalscoring record, including a very impressive GPG, and they might overrate him.

    On the other hand, his lack of UCL and NT success might also play against him in the future. It's hard to tell.
     

Share This Page