Signing the likes of Shevchenko or Veron were not, at the time, poor decisions. You're saying that you would not have signed Shevchenko at the time? Or Veron in his pomp? Shevchenko was arguably the best striker in Europe at the time and signing him, for any price, was seen as a good move by Chelsea. That he failed so terribly could not have been seen, even by your expert eye. The same goes for Veron. His ability as a midfielder was well known, he was amongst the best in the world. These were tried and tested players who had won leagues, cups and countless international caps for their countries. Do not compare them to the signings of Mark Gonzalez, Antonio Nunez, Arbeloa and the countless other "mid-range" signings that came in, did nothing and left. They were all poor players from the very beginning. My over all point has been that Rafa is wasting his time on a player who is not only not needed, but is going to deprive him of £18m!!!! That is £18m that could be spent helping Torres up front, an area where you desperately needed improvement in last year, or helping out on the wings, an area last year "dominated" by the likes of Harry Kewell, Jermaine Pennant, Dirk Kuyt, John Arne Risse and Fabio Aurelio. He is not a good in the tackle as Mascherano. He is not as incisive going forward as Alonso. He is not as good with the ball at his feet as either Lucas or Gerrard are. He sits uncomfortably somewhere inbetween all of them, which is hardly going to move you forward. With the afore-mentioned players, it's safe to say your centre midfield is safe. Have you not realised that with the success of the likes of Beckham, Giggs, Pires, Hleb, Ljungberg, Cole, Robben, Ronaldo, Nani etc that quality wide players are the key to winning matches consistantly? Screw spending £18m on a player you don't need, especially a club like Liverpool who are all to keen to remind us they do not have the cash that the top 2 have. Spend it where it's needed. Having signed a full-back (or two?) you now need a striker and a winger.
These signings reinforce my point about judging transfers too soon. These players were hailed as amongst the greatest signings ever by some pundits - and then the season started!
So if you took over a poor squad, you'd just buy 11 world class players in one summer and your job is done? This isnt Football Manager, dont make that mistake. He's still at Liverpool and deemed to be better and more important than Steve Finnan, who was our best RB for the previous 4 seasons and one of the best RB's in England. He also somehow made the Spanish NT, he cant be a nothing player if hes made that step. At the start of the season he was the best LB in the Premiership yet is naturally a RB. He has beaten Messi twice, beaten Ronaldo in another game and beaten many other wingers he has come up against. When Finnan played against Man City at RB, it showed that we clearly missed Arbeloa at RB when Martin Petrov played so well against us. You somehow conveniently excluded Ryan Babel and Yossi Benayoun from your list of wingers ...two players who scored 20+ goals between them last season as well as providing around 15 assists and while they were inconsistent, both will be more in-tune with Rafa's thinking after a season with the squad. Babel was also equal 3rd in CL goalscoring for last season with 5 goals despite playing the the least amount of minutes on the pitch (619 minutes) out of the top 11 goalscorers. Benayoun was also responsible for our 1st goal at Stamford Bridge in how long? Aurelio never played as a winger and when at LB was a good player, our problem was that when Riise had to play instead of him, we struggled. Pennant started the season in the same fashion that he finished the last (when he was Liverpool's best player in the CL final vs Milan) despite playing with stress fractures for the 1st 8 weeks. He eventually had to get it operated on and never made the same impact on his return. Kewell everyone knows about but despite this, when on the pitch he created more goalscoring opportunities and assists than any other Liverpool player per match. Im not saying that Kewell, Pennant and Riise are great wingers but they were all the back-up that we had for Kuyt, Benayoun and Babel. Alonso is not incisive going forward. He plays as a pivot and/or deep-lying playmaker who passes the ball from deep positions to naturally wide wingers and given that we already have Masch and Agger playing as our pivots, we dont need anymore. Our width is also provided by our full-backs and not wingers given that we arent playing a system with traditional English touchline-hugging wingers. If you watched any Liverpool games last season you wouldve seen that other managers had cottoned onto the fact that you must close Xabi Alonso down and apply high amounts of pressure on him and he will be caught in possession. Either the Greek NT manager is ignorant, isnt tactically aware or is a lazy manager. Screw spending £18m on a player you don't need, especially a club like Liverpool who are all to keen to remind us they do not have the cash that the top 2 have. Spend it where it's needed. Having signed a full-back (or two?) you now need a striker and a winger.[/quote] How do you know that we are spending £18m on Gareth Barry? If we were, then the deal wouldve been done 2 weeks ago. Liverpool arent reminding or informing anyone of their monetry status. Its the media who seem to think that we are broke and continue to suggest it and brainwash people like you into thinking that. Rafa has already stated that he isnt looking to sign a proper winger this season...in fact, not many top teams employ proper wingers anymore. Liverpool's summer so far... We needed an assistant manager and Rafa got one. We needed a back-up GK...so Rafa got one of the best ones possible. We needed a RB and LB...so Rafa got the arguably best LB in Italy and a RB who are both physically adept at playing in the premiership and have all the attributes of being a great and good player respectively. Dossena's game is probably more suited to the premiership. We cant rely on Masch, Lucas and Gerrard playing most games of the season with only Plessis as back-up. We need another central midfield player, most likely a versatile box-to-box central player. Barry fits that perfectly as in tandem with Mascherano, he can cover for the attacking left-back if needed on the left while Masch covers for the right-back if needed. We need a supporting striker for Torres so Rafa is supposedly in the market for one (Robbie Keane). Babel is currently our #1 left-winger and we have Benayoun and Leto as his back-up if they are needed.
Shevchenko is a slightly unfair case. I think he has been judged too harshly. Yes, his first season was terrible, but many don't settle right away. But last year? Hardly given a chance - 12 starts, 8 goals. Where is the problem in this? He's a goalscorer and scored at a decent rate when given the chance. Scholari is giving him another chance anyway so we can see this season - assuming Scholari is good to his word - whether Shevchenko truly is a flop after having been given more than enough time to settle and more play.
It's not his stats that is judged so harshly, it's his lack of quality in play. He seems to be a few notches below the other talents on the team and has not combined well with the other players. and who can forget this..http://youtube.com/watch?v=uJaRJe-pT8c
sorry mate but Sheva was actually better in his first season trust me, he was poor last season and unfortunately for him the only time he showed any promise he got injured also in regards to "hardly given a chance"- he didnt really deserve a chance by seasons end. He was supposedly suffering from a back injury which did not allow him to train but still found the time play golf on at least a weekly basis. Perhaps things will be different under Scolari, but I highly doubt it.
LOL. You think Sheva is going to get better when he is 32? Last season Sheva scored 5 league goals which were all at home. These included a last minute goal against Man City when Chelsea were already 5-0 up, a penalty against Villa and an unmarked header from 5 yards against newly promoted Sunderland. In the League Cup he scored a last minute goal against a Liverpool side without Reina, Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt, Agger and Mascherano and who had been down to 10 men and chasing the game for 30mins after Crouch was sent off. Sheva also scored against 2nd Division Leicester City in the League Cup. Both these goals were also at Stamford Bridge. I doubt many Chelsea fans would consider Sheva to be worth his £6 million annual wage. Sheva is a great player and a great person but after 2 years I think this is probably adequate time to consider his signing to be a flop. In other words - the £30 million signing of Sheva by Chelsea was a great transfer...for AC Milan.
Villa want at least £18m. At a push they might drop to maybe £17m, but the point still stands. You don't need him and you certainly don;'t need to be spending so much m oney on him. We all know Liverpool want him, and we all know how much Villa want for him. If it doesn't go through, either through Benitez changing his mind or Villa refusing to back down, it will be to Liverpools benefit. It will mean you haven't spent so much money on another centre midfielder and that it can now be invested where you need it. Are you taking the p!ss?
I not inviting anyone to judge a him or anything but here is the list of Rafael Benitez' signings since he took over at Liverpool. These are the player I have gathered from various sites etc. Josemi, Luis Garcia, Xabi Alonso, Antonio Nunez, Mauricio Pellegrino, Fernando Morientes, Scott Carson, Jose Reina, Mark Gonzalez, Boudewijn Zenden, Antonio Barragan, Mohamed Sissoko, Peter Crouch, Godwin Antwi, Jack Hobbs, Paul Anderson, Jan Kromkamp, David Martin, Daniel Agger, Robbie Fowler, Craig Bellamy, Gabriel Paletta, Fabiano Aurelio, Jermaine Pennant, Dirk Kuyt, Nabil El Zhar, Alvaro Arbeloa, Javier Mascherano, Francisco Manuel Duran, Andrei Voronin, Charles-Hubert Itandje, Fernando Torres, Yossi Benayoun, Ryan Babel, Emiliano Insua, Damien Plessis, Martin Skrtel, Philipp Degen, Andrea Dossena, and Diego Cavalieri. I challenge anyone to highlight the run away success. Players who have really been immpressive. And I hesitate to add that Ryan Babbel has been ok, but has he been £11m ok? I count 7, out of maybe 40 players. Obviously Degen and Dossenna should not be counted. I cannot see Lucas on there either, was he not a Benitez signing? The rest have either been hit'n'miss or plain rubbish. Crouch is a fence sitter. A good player at first but if he was great then surely he wouldn't have been sold? Luis Garcia was ok but, again, sold on aftr only sporadically playing well. More remembered for the goal that wasn't than anything else. Sissoko was ok but nothing special, although it has to be said no one expected Morrientes to be so poor. The rest have been poor or average at best. Antonio Nunez, Pellegrino, Veronin, Josemi, Gonzalez, Zenden, Bellamy, Fowler, Pennant, Kromkamp, Aurelio etc. Not exactly amazing. I dread to think how much they al cost. Every manager makes a hash of some signings. I remember our little period of Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba, Liam Miller, Forlan etc, but in the space of what, 5 years, that's a lot of poor players in my opinion.........
So you are including (and dismissing as rubbish), youth players such as Antwi, Anderson, Hobbs, Martin, Duran, Insua, Plessis? You think these teenagers are flops because they have not broken into the Liverpool first team yet? Are you serious? Do you also regard Wellbeck, Evans, Pique, Rossi and Cathcart as failures? I am sure Liverpool have some 15 year olds you can include too! Lol. I suggest that you not include youth signings as examples of bad signings. It makes people think you are somewhat stretching the truth. If you want to know about signings and transfer fees check this out... http://www.lfchistory.net/transfers.asp PS Youth players are included in there. So check yourself before condemning all those minors as flops.
Wow...what a great summation of Liverpool's transfers 24 out of those players are still at the club and we have made profits on others such as Carson and Sissoko. Lucas is clearly a Benitez signing, given that he came in last year. I thought that you would know that Rafa has been at the club for more than one year...obviously not.
For the most part I have been unhappy with a majority of Benitez signings, but they aren't any worse than what Houllier, Evans and Souness signed, so I am used to Liverpool squandering money we cannot afford to squander. However, Benitez's good buys cancel out the negative ones. Torres, Alonso, Mascherano, Arbeloa, Benayoun, Babel, Reina and the list goes further on.
04/05 - 58 pts 05/06 - 82 pts 06/07 - 68 pts 07/08 - 76 pts What are Liverpool fans expecting this year? A genuine title challenge? Or will it be another season in 3rd/4th place with more time for Rafa to re-re-re-rebuild the squad? I'm not trying to be too sarcastic here, what are Liverpool fans really expecting this season?
Making profoits on player does not mean they were inm any way a success. Arsenal made a profit on Lassanna Diarra, is he a succdesws as far as they are concerned? No, of course not. What an illogical point. I get it, this is where all Liverpool fans ome out in defence of Rafa's signings despite their squad very clearly being short on quality and depth and despite the money he has spent already.......... Sentiment can cloud your judgement but from an outside view I see it like this: if they're not contributing positively to the first team week in, week out, then they can hardly be classed as success now can they? Young or old, too many of his signings aren't contributing enough. That is the most blindingly obvious thing in the world.
sorry I have to respond to this point first. I don't care if Andrea Dossena is the best left back who has ever graced the Serie A - if he fails in the Premiership he was a bad signing. simple as that. the mark of a good manager is seeing whether a player can succeed not only in his own league, but also visualizing whether or not he will be successful in your club's league. that's where Benitez has failed most often. if you look at many of his flops - Paletta, Gonzalez, Morientes, etc. - they are signings from abroad that have never adapted to life in England and/or the playing style of the Premier League. I think if he had made those same signings as the manager of Valencia (obviously in some cases he signed players from Valencia!) they would have been big successes. so let's compare, for instance, Stephen Warnock and Fabio Aurelio. Warnock is an average player - he's okay defensively, okay going forward, relatively versatile (can play left back and left midfield). he's not really a player who will lead you to Champions League glory, so I understand why you would sell him. meanwhile Fabio Aurelio was one of the most technically adept fullbacks in Spain, great on set pieces, great going forward. he had an absolutely amazing 2002-03 season, scoring 8 goals in 26 league appearances (a fullback!) - that's a Daniel Alves-esque season. so again, we can understand what Benitez saw in him. but he failed in England, and that's why we consider him a bad signing. on the balance, maybe Liverpool fans would prefer Warnock to Aurelio, not because he is a better footballer, but because he is a better footballer *for Liverpool*. and finally, here's a more accurate list of Benitez's signings throughout his tenure at Liverpool. I believe Djibril Cisse was Houllier's last signing (he arrived in summer 2004 after Houllier had already left): Mauricio Pellegrino, Josemi, Antonio Nunez, Luis Garcia, Xabi Alonso, Fernando Morientes, Scott Carson, David Martin, Boudewijn Zenden, Pepe Reina, Antonio Barragan, Mohamed Sissoko, Peter Crouch, Miki Roque, Jack Hobbs, Besian Idrizaj, Jan Kromkamp, Daniel Agger, Robbie Fowler, Mark Gonzalez, Ramon Calliste, Gabriel Paletta, Craig Bellamy, Fabio Aurelio, Jermaine Pennant, Dirk Kuyt, Nabil El Zhar, Alvaro Arbeloa, Dean Bouzanis, Francis Duran, Sebastian Leto, Emiliano Insua, Andrey Voronin, Lucas, Fernando Torres, Yossi Benayoun, Ryan Babel, Charles Itandje, Damien Plessis, Martin Skrtel, Javier Mascherano, Philipp Degen, Nikola Saric, Andrea Dossena, Diego Cavalieri bolded players cost more than 1 million euros in transfer fees. italicized bolded players are no longer at the club and for an obvious reason (I hope) I subjectively considered them bad transfers. (I counted the Josemi - Kromkamp swap as a free transfer in both directions). according to transfermarkt.de, Liverpool have spent 113,890,000 euros in net transfer fees since Benitez arrived (ignoring the Cisse transfer, which was Houllier's doing). in that same time period, Arsenal (just as an example) have spent 3,130,000 euros in net transfer fees.
That's an incredibale difference in net transfer spending. Liverpool fans who moan thsat the club never have any money are talking rubbish. I'm sure Liverpool will have their day. But Rafa, as good a manager as he clearly is, is a bit gash in the transfer market at times. Inter4estingly enough, and I remain fairly open minded about this, Cavelieri is not meant to be the beswt keeper about by the way. Tim Vickery's column for the BBC he isn;'t exactly glowing in his review of the player. Maybe Timmy will get it wrong but the signs are all there that it could be another write off.........
Liverpool will not finish above 5th place....yeah thats right 5th. Rafa is in over his head with this roster mark my words.
Yeah but including players who are youth players or who have only joined in this past off-season in a list of signings and then labeling them to be failures is frankly stupid. It's like claiming Scolari is a rubbish manager for Chelsea because he has not won any games for them. This is factually correct but also absurd. It is fair comment to criticise Rafa for first team failures but citing signings who are still youth players is a poor effort. It is clear Liverpool have not been able to buy 20+ players costing more than 10 million each. So Rafa has had to generate money by buying cheaper and achieving continuing success in the CL. This generated transfer funds and this was added to him selling many players for a profit thus enabling him to have more cash to spend on upgrades. An example of a profitable signing is Carson, Rafa has made 5 million profit on this player. This profit plus the 4 million profit on Crouch will help purchase Keane. Rafa has signed some players who have underwhelmed. That is clear and he is no different from all managers in that regard. However Rafa has often been able to sell these players on for a profit and try and recruit a better replacement. His biggest loss on an unsuccessful signing has been Morientes (who cost less than Kleberson) and he was sold for a loss of £3.3 million. Under Rafa Liverpool have been in quite a few Finals and won some significant trophies. Liverpool now have consistently proven to be a force in the CL under Rafa. It is clear that the team has progressed since he took it over.
Is that how you rate players? Depending on what Tim Vickery says? I use a more old-fashioned approach of watching a player play and then forming my own opinon based on my judgement. If I have not seen a player play sufficiently, I withhold giving an opinion on his quality. Otherwise you are just parroting someone else's opinion. Surely the success of Cavalieri as a Rafa signing can only be answered by seeing how Cavalieri performs in a Red shirt and then determining whether this proves value for money.