Does Messi need to win a world cup to be considered the Greatest?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by panabean, Jun 5, 2011.

  1. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    If history means last 10 years, then yeah ... maybe.
     
  2. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Member

    Oct 17, 2010
    Texas
    Club:
    Pachuca CF
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Please, a little respect for the top player of the sport we love. Messi has done plenty of things to talk about. He has won 3 Champions Leagues, has had phenomenal seasons for Barca and has reached a level of play not seen since Ronaldo (R9). He is the best of his generation and a candidate to become an all-time great. Quit your hating.
     
  3. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Member

    Oct 17, 2010
    Texas
    Club:
    Pachuca CF
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    He's obviously a troll.
     
  4. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Now that Romario put his opinion on Messi's greatness ...


    Former Barcelona striker Romario says that World Player of the Year Lionel Messi has a long way to go before he can be considered the greatest of all-time.

    Messi stirred the debate himself last week when he claimed that he had never seen Pele - considered by many to be best player in history - play, with the great Brazilian promising to send him a copy of his film so that he could study up.

    "If Messi sees the video, he'll probably learn some things," Romario said at a press conference. "You simply cannot compare him with Pele. You cannot say he is the same when he has never won a World Cup.

    "Messi has all the conditions to be the best one day, but first he has to overcome Maradona, Romario and then eventually Pele."


    That (underlined) sounded typical ROMARIO ... ( But at least after ALL, he admitted he is below Pele - not at his best form in early 90's LOL)

    http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/s...essi-has-a-long-way-to-go-to-be-great?cc=5901
     
  5. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Does Romario seriously believe he's better than Maradona? :rolleyes:

    Anyways, Messi will surpass the Chapulin, all he needs is a few more years.
     
  6. Izzy9

    Izzy9 Member

    Apr 21, 2011
    U.S.
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Romario was a beast! I mean the guy was untouchable in his days. Maradona was a better playmaker. Romario was a far greater goal scorer. In the penalty box, he was the king. I think he truly believes he was better than Maradona and a lot of people are in his corner. In fact, some people believe Zico was better than Maradona. Anyway, Maradona was a genius and most people believe he is the second best player of all time behind Pele. Yes, I know some of you believe he is the best ever.

    I must confess Messi is beginning to make a believer out of me. The little fellow is a genius. I keep asking myself if he is better than Ronaldo Fenomeno yet? For Messi to challenge Pele, he must

    1. Must score 50+ goals for at least 5 more seasons.
    2. Must win at least 3 more ECL titles
    3. Win a world cup

    He can forget about scoring 1200+ goals. It's not going to happen. However, if he continues to score 50+ goals for at least 4 more seasons, he can get his average close 1 goal per game. That would be very impressive.
    Winning 3 more ECL would put him a league by himself.
    Winning a world cup would validate him with his national team.

    Only then, would be in a position to start having a true debate about the best of all times. I am almost certain, he can do 1 and 2 but, I am not so sure he will ever win a world cup. Why? Germany and Brazil have very young teams that will only get better with time.

    Messi has one guy who may overshadow him in two years and if that happens, the whole best ever discussion will come to an end. His name is Neymar!!!
     
  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    At time, there was no evidence Romario had any comments of Maradona. However, he did challenge with pele - He said Pele scored many goals in older era (more open plays) and he will go on to score 1000 goals like Pele in new era :p - well he managed to make it ... in term of (strictly) NUMBER. What a great player

    Messi did surpass Romario at club level (if not by far). Romario however got a grip on 2 CopaAmerica and 1WC as his PRIDE - that Messi needs to catch up with - selon his opinion (and by many). At this rate Messi will more likely to be ranked higher than Romario, no doubt!

    Up to 1984, many (SA_) did believed Zico was better than Maradona (by a thin hair in scale!) But things changed after WC86 and plus his Napoli won 2xSerieA

    Pele will remain as a KING (best ever) as NO ONE would possibly break his all records PERIOD (especially the way Footbal "trolling" toward marketing and betting - sadly )
     
  8. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    :rolleyes:
    Messi has already won 3 CLs', which is one more than Pele won Libertadores. I have no doubt he will win at least a couple more before it's all over. I disagree that Messi needs to score 50+ goals for five seasons, he is not the striker at Barca, also, what if C Ronaldo scores that many goals the next five years, does that put him on par with Pele? :rolleyes:

    The thing that will most likely keep Messi from being a challenger to Pele is the WC, I believe he will win one, but not two as Pele did (where O Rei actually contributed anyways). The only way it would work for Messi is by giving a performance like Maradona's in WC86, but I am absolutely certain noone will ever do that again.
     
  9. Izzy9

    Izzy9 Member

    Apr 21, 2011
    U.S.
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I am taking into consideration what Messi has already done. CR7 is extremely good but, he does not belong in that conversation. Anyway, I mentioned 5 more 50+ seasons mainly because that would be something extraordinary and would validate him as prolific goal scoring machine like Pele even if never gets to score as many goals the king. No one will probably ever break Pele's goal record but, people might one day say "That Messi scored over 50 goals for 6 or 7 seasons and no one else has done that since Pele. Furthermore, he has won over 5 ECLs and one world cup. Who do you think was better? Pele or Messi?". Pele was more than a goal scoring machine. He was also a playmaker which Cristiano Ronaldo is not. Messi is a playmaker and is becoming better every year. To be fair, Cristiano Ronaldo has been trying this season to be more of facilitator and I commend for that but, he is not in that group of men. When I think of playmakers, I think of Maradona, Zico, Zidane, the old Ronaldinho. It is hard to be both a goal scoring machine and a playmaker. Such players come around every 20+ years. Pele was definitely the MAN and may never be surpassed. Messi first needs to surpass Ronaldo Fenomeno which he has done.
     
  10. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    The sentence doesn't really make sense.
    And he hasn't surpassed Ronaldo yet, mainly due to Messi's poor Argentina track record.
     
  11. Izzy9

    Izzy9 Member

    Apr 21, 2011
    U.S.
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Sorry. I meant to write:
    Messi first needs to surpass Ronaldo Fenomeno which he has not done.

    Anyway, you got what I was trying to day.
     
  12. (De La)Redstriker06

    May 3, 2003
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Palestine
    Messi doesn't have an excuse not to win a World Cup. He comes from a country with a long track record of success. There have been some greats who don't have a World Cup trophy on their CV (George Best and Johann Cryuff come to mind) and they sort of get lost in the "Greatest Ever" discussion. Messi's performance at the 2010 World Cup and 2011 Copa America left a lot to be desired we'll see what he'll be capable of doing in the years to come.

    Messi is on a ridiculous run of form but I fear that he might be one of those stars that peaks too early. He reads the game very well but a lot of what he does depends on pure speed and quickness, age or injury could cause him to lose a step.
     
  13. RiverGaucho

    RiverGaucho Member+

    Jan 23, 2010
    Buenos Aires
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    No you're wrong. Nery Pumpido, Oscar Ruggeri, and Hector Enrique of River Plate won the 1986 Argentina Primera Division, Copa Libertadores, Intercontinental Cup, and Copa Interamericana and won the World Cup in Mexico with Argentina, and all started the world cup final
     
  14. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    That's true ... many did "underated' that Argentina team and Maradona got all the praise ... which was well deserved but still ...
     
  15. Santista1962

    Santista1962 Red Card

    Sep 9, 2011
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Short and/or less prestigious tournaments such as the Recopa, Intercontinental Cup, Copa Interamericana and UEFA Super Cup are not usually included in trebles. Trebles are meant to be one primary and secondary domestic tournament and the continental showpiece.

    Because if we follow what you say, I can tell you of at least 40 teams worldwide that has done a "treble". All that does is cheapen the merit of winning three major trophies in a year. So, yes...Santos is still the only South American team to achieve a treble and the treble+World Cup. Your guys just achieved a double.

    Remember, the treble is a merit coined in the British Isles in which the merit of winning the Championship (replaced by the Premier League), the FA Cup and the European Cup (replaced with the Champions League) was the ultimate challenge after winning the continental laurel.

    In our case, our treble makes hierarchily more sense since it goes from state, nation to continent (which is equivalent to a theoretical English system of county, nation and continent).

    You will find many people agree with this and will never consider a national title, UEFA Cup/Copa Sudamericana and UEFA Cup/Recopa Sudamericana/Intercontinental/Interamerican Cup a true treble. Those titles are only really taken into account when counting an achievement in which a team wins them consecutively (or almost).

    For example, we were the first club in the world to win four titles out of four in a year. Barcelona was the first to win six (and I doubt we will see seven out of seven).
     
  16. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    What are you talking about? Those three players from River Plate did win the treble that year: Argentine league (national), Copa Libertadores (Continental), and Intercontinental...along with the WC at NT level.
     
  17. Santista1962

    Santista1962 Red Card

    Sep 9, 2011
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Again...those claiming that just winning one WC would make Messi the greatest are smoking something really good.

    He only appears good in Europe, where the marking is almost non-existant, in a league dominated by two teams in which scorelines such as 5-0, 7-2 and 6-1 are common between those two and the rest.

    But put him against decent opponents and he disappear faster than the rats on the Titanic.

    He will never be anywhere close to Maradona, much less Pele.
     
  18. RiverGaucho

    RiverGaucho Member+

    Jan 23, 2010
    Buenos Aires
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Plus if this guy wants to play it that way, River won the summer tournament in Mar del Plata so in reality it was 5 trophies:

    Mar del Plata
    Primera Division
    Copa Libertadores
    Copa Intercontinental
    Copa Interamericana
     
  19. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    funny since most south america's top defenders are playing in Europle atm.
     
  20. la saeta rubia

    Aug 1, 2010
    Argentina/España
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Listen the problem in Europe is the leagues are all a joke with the exception of Germany and possiboy France.Madrid and Barca could score 7 or 8 every week against mediocre opposition.Its the sake in England the two Manchester franchises way ahead of the rest.When Messi,Higuain,Aguero and co play against decently organized teams with a little quality we see their failings.Compareing Messi to Maradona,Pele or Di Stefano or Moreno is simply pointless he unlike all of these has no leadership qualities
     
  21. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    What are you smoking? ManCity is currently storming for the title, but Manchester United is one point ahead of the third placed team with Chelsea, Tottenham, Newcastle hot in pursuit. Plus Arsenal seems to have refound their winning ways after a terrible start to the season.

    Calling it a two-horse race is just ridiculous. ManUtd has been the dominant force, but Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, now ManCity and Tottenham all counted in the race for the title.

    And once in a while you will find such one-sided matches as in La Liga, but not that often.

    That said defences in La Liga are dire and they make scoring goals too easy for the likes of Messi and CR7.
     
  22. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The EPL has gone from being a three-horse race (ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal), to a two-horse race (ManU and Chelsea) to a league where one horse is way ahead of the pack (ManCity), with the fight for second and third being the only discussion :rolleyes:
     
  23. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    But it changes from year to year.
     
  24. Santista1962

    Santista1962 Red Card

    Sep 9, 2011
    Club:
    Santos FC
    I'm sorry but I have to agree with the above. The EPL is nowhere near being the two-horse race that La Liga is, by actuality and history. Between just Barcelona and Madrid, they have won over 65% of their national titles.

    Whereas in England, between Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal, it is merely 48%.
     
  25. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Your assessment is only true in "last few years"! Well to be more specific, there are two scenarios based on STATS historically:

    1- From 1997-2004:
    - Liga is the best league and very competitive with 4,5 teams able to challenge for the top, and not much difference (in points between top4 and bottom 10) - namely Barca, Real Deportivio, Valencia ...
    - WHilst in same period, EPL were all but ManU and Arsenal.

    2- At near present, 2005-2011:
    - EPL became the strongest and arguably the most "competitiveness" - thanks to the billions investment in Chelsea, Liverpool and lately ManCity. (if we do not take Bundesliga or Ligue1 in same context)

    - In other hand, in this last half decade: Liga clubs are in CRISIS of finance and most clubs could not afford in spending development besides the TWO biggest clubs (in world, not just within Liga) Real and Barca. So we can see a very clear in STATS (how Real and Barca accumulated their points way beyond the next rival teams from 3 to 6 ...
     

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