Does Lionel Messi have too many failures to be considered the greatest footballer of all time?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by darek27, Apr 23, 2021.

  1. darek27

    darek27 Member

    Aug 29, 2008

    So Platini dominated all formats because he was fit in 83 - 85 period ?
    It's too short span of time to be a dominator

    I have created this thread because I think that Messi has to many failures to be an single / one and only Goat.
    Not because I think he is heavily overrated or not worthy bo be one of Goats.
    I don't want to discredit him as You did
    You go too far with critisizing him .
    I don't agree with that. He have many more seasons at top than Platini and Euro 84 isn't enough to change that

    I don't know You so I can't say I like You or not
    Brazil ?
    No I'm European , from Poland .
    I prefer European players tbh. Dutch NT is my favourite ever bar Poland of course
    In my TOP 10 I have 6 European players ( or 8 if we exclud Pele and Di Stefano due to lack od enough footage ) but I don't care about their nationality
     
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  2. golden_god

    golden_god Member

    Liverpool
    Brazil
    Jan 16, 2021
    I disagree about before 1985,I even think that was his best form.Maradona from 1978-1983(before shit injured in Barcelona)was already top3 players with Zico and Rummenige(president of Bayern).Maradona in this period was more agile,better dribbler,better scorer and the most important things he never had a problem with drugs(he started to used in 1983.).If this era had ballandor and used the same rules as today,he would won over anyone in the world in 1979 and 1980(1981Zico,1982Rossi or maybe Rummenige,1983-1984 D10s injured).Y
    I agree with you about Messi directness that cause a lot of Barcelona results too especially in UCL.On Maradona tactical intelligence i would not mention it in this comment because I want to talk about only"Messi".Imagine Messi played against 93-95 Milan's backline like Baresi,Maldini,Costarcusta,Tassorti the best clubs backline ever that had very well organnized,some brutal,very intelligent especially making fouls to stop attackers run(Maldini was god im this department.),he would be shut down because if he couldn't do well aginst Chelsea,Athletico Madrid and Juventus he wouldn't do that against Milan too(even worse too)

    This is my personal opinion only,you can think different than me555.
    Put peak Messi instead Maradona in WC86,Argntina wouldn't win sure because his too much directness and his leadership isn't that good to give a fighting spirit or alpha mentality but.....put any version of Maradona to Guardiola's FCB and for sure he wouldn't do as great as Messi because his finishing is great but not as great as Messi,he doesn't combo or use wingback as frequently as Messi(and not better to) and the last one like you said before Messi is the goat in league department and has better consitency than any version of Maradona too(i'm not mention intelligence of any person.) but if Maradona played instead Messi vs Inter Milan in 2010,sure he would did something better than Messi for sure(at least I think he would drop deep and make some great passes,long ball and some tricky dribbling that made Zanetti or Lucio headache like he did vs Italy90(better backline than Inter arguably the greatest backline of all time).
     
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  3. golden_god

    golden_god Member

    Liverpool
    Brazil
    Jan 16, 2021
    I can calk your thread"the research and documentary of Messi".It's can be not only case study but a documentary for the next generation that will interest in specific informations about Messi.
     
  4. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Anyways...

    I think in 10 years time, the all time list will look more or less like this:

    1. Lionel Messi.

    2. Cristiano Ronaldo.

    3. Pele.

    4. Diego Maradona.

    5. Zinedine Zidane.

    6. Johan Cruyff.

    7. Alfredo Di Stefano.

    8. Franz Beckenbauer.

    9. Paolo Maldini.

    10. Ronaldo Nazario.

    All time lists are a popularity contest, which is why Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo will be the best players of all time for the next 30 years or so; a similar cycle to Pele and Maradona as the best players of all time.

    Paolo Maldini has already secured his place as a top 10 all timer, despite the fact that Franco Baresi was better; again, all time lists are all about propaganda, and Maldini received a lot more money (propaganda) than Baresi, so Maldini is getting the top 10 place; legacy.

    Zinedine Zidane is the same story as Paolo Maldini, but at least Zidane more or less deserves his place; unlike Maldini.

    Michel Platini and Zico will not be in the top 10, despite both of them being more complete players than Cristiano Ronaldo; especially Platini, in my opinion.
     
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  5. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    #130 JoCryuff98, May 4, 2021 at 3:35 AM
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 3:49 AM
    If there was a good top 5 list, in no particular order, it would be something like Maradona, Messi, Cruijff, Platini and Pele, in my opinion. Also @leadleader many people these days do find Zidane pretty overrated and that seems to be somewhat popular. At least there are some people who’re actually aware now that Cruijff and Platini were far better players than Zidane and are somewhat aware about his inconsistency. But, Ronaldinho is unfairly bashed as a trickster and YouTube compilation merchant who in my opinion was a better and more gifted player than Zidane. Plus he had a more consistent club career.
     
  6. golden_god

    golden_god Member

    Liverpool
    Brazil
    Jan 16, 2021
  7. golden_god

    golden_god Member

    Liverpool
    Brazil
    Jan 16, 2021
    First,I don't want to be racist and I'm not racist too but I think I have found a lot of Asians especially from Chinesse or maybe in South East Asians that overrated him or maybe created him as a god like he is the best passer of all time,he has the unmatched ball control,he can cotrolled the pitch like a god sent him played football.....nahh Are you crazy?no doubt Zidane was very good player but I find these days people overrate him so so much especially in passing I remember I answer one person that said Zidane is the best in weigh pass no can unmatched him.....I replied even There are a lot better passer than him.....Netzer,Overrath,Platini,Diego,Zico,Laudrup,Xavi,KDB more and more are better passer than him and he replied Zidane was so consistency in the club,was the most complete player and you should watch Brazil vs France in 2006....nahhh If people that followed him,they would known that he was crazy inconsistency especially last 2years before retirement.Some Asians(not everyone) that follow the propaganda and not study the game comment ridiculous things on facebook or some webboard make me laugh and smile lmao.
     
  8. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Fwiw, I've honestly never stated nor honestly ever felt Messi is the goat, let alone my "idol".
    To be honest he's not even my favorite player from my "preferred club". Rivaldo and Ronaldinho are my favorites but I honestly consider neither to be the goat nor my "idol".
    I honestly only list Barcelona as my "club" because we cannot list more than one and I already have my "preferred club" as my avatar.
    To be honest.
     
  9. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    The deconstruction of Zinedine Zidane’s legacy as a player is well underway, although some modern fans are taking it several steps too far. There is a not insignificant portion of football fans who genuinely believe that Zidane was an inconsistent show-pony, and the modern robotic footballer known as Kevin De Bruyne is better than Zidane in every way imaginable.
     
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  10. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Well, it exists! it's my list, posted on september 2017 :Dhttps://footballyesterdayandtoday.blogspot.com/2017/09/fyts-125-greatest-footballers-of-all.html:D
    (sorry for I can't access to the edit section of this long article and correct some grammatical mistakes and turns of phrase)
    I fully played the game of choosing an order though, with which I'm fine enough btw (although it's quite indicated that going for a precise order is somehow and blabla... individual rankings for a collective sport blablabla...)
    there's just the ranking at the end and also sowhere on this board if ever interested.
     
  11. sohel_bashar

    sohel_bashar Member

    Real Madrid
    Jun 5, 2020
    First of all i said before, didn't pele play thousand matches before that WC and its said that his body declined, especially legs declined by that point , he lost pace , agility and became far less athletic by that point. I saw all the actions of that video even before , when i watched the matches. He missed some chances and hit freekicks way over the bar (it seemed like a common thing in that wc for some reason btw) in the video. And lot of that video is literally duels lost by Pele, some of them seemed he couldn't even move, something that wouldn't happen with Pele of 60s (he got a lot of dispossessions even back then , because of his directness and most of them were around the box or while attack, not in the same manner as in this video) .
    And most importantly like most other players pele's shout of goat candidate comes from what he was doing in his prime days. And i watched all the matches of Brazil in that WC, as i did for Cruyff 74. Cruyff 74 was obviously better performance . But pele still not at his prime and not dribbling much had a great tournament with lot of excellent performances. And here's also the thing ,Cruyff, Platini were at their absolute peak in those tournaments , unlike Pele who got injured in two wcs at his prime and physically declined a lot by that point.
    Nobody actually here knows what would Pele done had he been not injured in the 2 WCs in 60s

    One good game by Pele, is not at all evidence that Pele is better than Garrincha, nor is it evidence that Pele would be better than Garrincha in a 7 game tournament like the World Cup. You are cherry-picking one great game by Pele, as you conveinetly extrapolate the one game into a 7 game tournament.

    The fact is, Garrincha 1962 was a better performance than Pele 1970, Pele 1966, Pele 1962, or Pele 1958. This always was my obvious point; Garrincha 1962 outclassed Pele.



    I only brought that match because it was one of the rarest game of Pele at his prime in the WC and tell what he could do , even with garrincha having his best time ever , he seemed to the best player when on the pitch.
    And who denied Garrincha 1962 outclassed Pele . I mean seriously you are talking 58,62,66 and 70 WC. Pele in 58 was as decisive as Garrincha 62 , if not more and obviously not as dominant being a youngster. Already discussed about 1970 WC. Funnily how you seem to forget Pele was injured in both 62 WC and 66 WC (both WCs at his peak) and literally counting those WCs against him. And to make it worse, you linked that half-sided , butthurt video (which can be dissected within 5 mins by anyone with actual knowledge) from one of the stupidest, hypocrite, casual fanboy channel in Raymar, out there on youtube (a fool who says there's no aspect of the game where Maradona was better than Messi,whom he worships). It is true , Garrincha 62 was a better performance than any of Pele's 58 or 70 as well 95% of wc history. But it also must be taken into consideration that Pele couldn't continue in both wc of his prime. And apparently i am a pretentious guy because of telling all these . Coming from someone who seems to think Pele was only mere scorer of goals like muller, cr7 etc. The irony !I used to think most people on this platform unlike those casuals on social media had a good idea about players from past, but seems like not everyone fits that criteria. And i have no problems in arguments and views but they should be done rationally and not omitting context.
     
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  12. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    As it's been adressed many times by myself and others, Platini didn't wait the 83-85 period to dominate. Individually speaking, his Nancy and Saint-Etienne were just as phenomenal as his supposedly 83-85 peak years. It's just that he didn't achieve as much as he would eventually do later in Italy, playing during 2/3 of his carreer in a 2nd tier league, and nearly half of his carreer in a low/mid-table team (AS Nancy).
     
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  13. sohel_bashar

    sohel_bashar Member

    Real Madrid
    Jun 5, 2020
    #138 sohel_bashar, May 5, 2021 at 5:36 AM
    Last edited: May 5, 2021 at 5:45 AM


    What are Platini's failures, according to you?

    Messi is nothing special at cup formats; his Copa America form is nothing special compared to Enzo Francescoli, Gabriel Batistuta, Carlos Valderrama, for example; and his World Cup form is nothing special compared to just about any other great player of any era; for example, Arjen Robben being one of the more obvious references in recent years.


    The problem with this argument is , someone could easily say , Platini at his peak seemed to won a lot of titles for countries and club, but his as player seems to coincide with both Juventus and France's time as the best teams in European Football. Don't you think?
    And ok let's see :
    - 1983 european cup final , Juventus with Platini loses to Hamburg

    - 1986 European cup , Juventus with Platini loses to Barca in quarterfinals

    - 1987 European cup final , Juventus with Platini loses to Real Madrid (probably you'll point out to them going out on Penalties)

    - 1980 , St. Etienne gets destroyed by borussia monchengladbach, over both the legs in quarter finals of Uefa cup

    - 1981 ,St. Etienne gets destroyed both legs by Ipswich Town with Platini

    - 1982 , European cup preliminary round , Platini with St. Etienne gets knocked out by BFC dynamo

    Haven't compiled the Copa Italia and French cup matches. And you've discussed about the world cup in 1982 and 86 it seems
    So doesn't it seems he had his shares of getting knocked out in cup format? like Messi and other players as well.

    Or, Maybe i am not getting your point what you're implying perhaps .

    Then you say the last line and call me pretentious and narcissist person because of disagreeing with you lol. I hardly get irritated if someone actually argues with reasonings and rationality , instead of linking some stupid videos and possibly hypocritical reasonings. And never did i think i am correct about everything . I keep asking people questions and confess whenever i don't have enough knowledge in many topics . My views are open to change and keeps changing . And you keep accusing people of sucking up status quo propaganda, being pretentious , dishonest, cynical , passive-aggressive . Contrarily, someone could label you as a Hipster , pseudo-intellectual because of some of the things you said. Someone could accuse you of putting Platini at the golden pedestal as well.

    Anyways, i am open to discussion at any point with rationality and proper reasonings, and some of your remarks such as the greatest player ever needs to be more inventive, less predictable isn't actually invalid and up for a good discussion i'd say. Also , the post where you mentioned how all time list will look like 30 years from now on because of popularity, bias, propagandas is also correct and i agree fully with it . To add, someone like Mbappe who might achieve lot of awards , team success with National team and club, awards might be also enter high place on that list similiar to c.ronaldo perhaps
    However, i don't get your point about listing Messi's failures with his team in cup formats whereas its also obvious Platini in many cases, even Maradona as well had to suffer the same fate in lot of them. If someone ask you Maradona got knocked out 5/6 times in uefa competitions, list out Platini's team's failure and ask you the question , why are you only cherrypicking Messi's failures, what would you answer ?? I am interested to know
     
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  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #139 carlito86, May 5, 2021 at 6:03 AM
    Last edited: May 5, 2021 at 6:10 AM
    Really?



    2 non penalty goals in 25 European cup/UEFA cup appearences tells the full story
    At least more than this revisionism ,eulogism and falsifying of events

    Maradona was a flawed genuis

    Flawed genius(and not just because of drug taking or lifestyle habits)
    Technically he was a genius but he was not complete(predominately one footed and mediocre in the air both areas Messi comfortably beats him)

    His finishing
    I mean was he that much better a finisher as peak Ronaldinho?

    Peak Ronaldinho 2005/06 scored 8 non penalty/FK goals in la liga

    Lionel Messi scored 37 non penalty/FK goals in la liga 2011/12

    Almost 5× more

    Does anyone want to wager that Messi 2011/12 dribbled less than either player
    I don't think so

    As for Maradona
    I don't think after 1987 he was better than peak Micheal laudrup(91-93)
    Or Baggio(92-94)
    Or ruud gullit(1987)
    That's his level in the last few years of his peak

    Before this (world cup 86 aside) its not easy to gauge how good he really was due to playing in leagues who's overall quality cannot be established


    Which GOAT seasons did Maradona have in Europe
    1984/85 isn't statistically extraordinary (far from it)and Maradona was literally a forward

    I like his 1980 and 1981 version's
    He could possibly/arguably be comparable to the 2008/09 and 2009/10 versions of Lionel Messi(and bit better in playmaking but nothing really to split in finishing and dribbling)

    The following campaigns of Messi
    2010/11
    2011/12
    2012/13
    2014/15
    2017/18
    2018/19
    The first half of la liga 2019/20
    And the second half of la liga 2020/21

    Are out of Maradonas reach though
    Sorry

    Dearman called Messi ordinary world class in la liga 2013/14

    That is a player with over 5 dribbles per 90
    Almost 1 goal per 90



    And when his playmaking was 'on' he was as good as Maradona at his best

    https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...pain-Copa-del-Rey-2013-2014-Levante-Barcelona



    With all due respect Maradona most likely never had a season like that playing for napoli
    Forget about likely

    He categorically did not

    Messi and Ronaldo for that matter have redefined what it means to be individually brilliant
    Messi moreso

    Fans are lying through their teeth if they claim they have seen with their own eyes a better player than Lionel Messi in a Barcelona shirt


    Granted Ronaldo is/has also been extraordinary

    Platini being greater let alone far greater is a figment of your imagination(leadleader)


    He's almost on 800 career goals and there are some failed ex semi professionals here talking about him being overrated

    Its beyond ridiculous now
     
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  15. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC

    I told you...

    Neymar was completely nullified by Manchester City's Yellow Resistant Rotation Fouling; the cynical defensive strategy of modern football.

    The estimates below are eye-measured; so I could well be mistaken, in which case, I expect to be corrected...

    10 fouls...

    10 fouls (or more) by Fernandinho.

    0 yellow cards...

    0 yellow cards against Fernandinho.

    10 fouls...

    10 fouls (or more) accumulated by Neymar.

    0 yellow cards...

    0 yellow cards against Manchester City, after Manchester City fouled specifically Neymar at least 10 times.

    Conclusion?

    The highly probable fact, that the biggest inconsistency with regards to modern football, is the fact that the yellow card was originally created to punish fouls that do no really exist in the modern context; the original regulative function of the yellow card is essentially obsolete in modern football, because modern philosophers like Guardiola have perfected the art of dominating the tempo of the game on the basis of Fernandinho generating 10 fouls without ever getting one single yellow card...

    This happens, because by the book, the fouls by Fernandinho are not yellow cards. But the problem is, that this allows Fernandinho to simply destroy Paris Saint Germain's ability to attack, and Fernandinho gets to do this with complete and absolute freedom; not even one single yellow card, to a player who was as cynical as a defensive player can be.

    With the "green card" concept that I have explained in previous posts, Fernandinho would have accumulated at the very least 4 green cards; 3 green cards already is a red card; therefore, Fernandinho would have been sent off, for his repeated abuse of deliberate fouls - but not yellow card fouls - against Paris Saint Germain.

    Without the green card, modern football is constitutionally tilted in favor of tactics; individual players cannot be expected to out-play tactics, when the tactics themselves are protected by the obsolete yellow card, and by the fact that football continues to function around the obsolete yellow card... It is not a realistic expectation, to expect players like Neymar or Messi to simply out-play the laws of gravity.
     
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  16. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC

    Pele fans (and South American fans in general, to be honest) conveniently use different rules against Michel Platini.

    Platini has more or less the same statistics for 6 consecutive years, which is a strong indication of amazing longevity by Platini, relative to his era; but then you have fools like @darek27 making the case that Platini was only great in 1984 and 1985.

    Pele was great for an entire decade...

    Platini was great for 2 years only...

    It is impossible to have serious discussions with fans like @darek27 who apply different rules, on the basis of completely arbitrary personal preference. Pele and Messi get a different set of rules, versus Platini who gets his legacy destroyed and diminished into just 2 years of great form.
     
  17. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Fernandinho committed 4 fouls as far as I can tell from the stats
     
  18. golden_god

    golden_god Member

    Liverpool
    Brazil
    Jan 16, 2021
    Maldini was the god of making folus but not made any single card.
     
  19. golden_god

    golden_god Member

    Liverpool
    Brazil
    Jan 16, 2021
    I'm quoting wrong,sorry.
     
  20. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #145 Tropeiro, May 5, 2021 at 11:10 AM
    Last edited: May 5, 2021 at 11:31 AM
    One thing about Platini is that the Juventus he arrived in 1982 was a very very good team in Europe already and in fact a superteam in the Italian context (they were two time Italian Champions already) and had many capped players. They also hire some very good players like the Polish Boniek, Aldo Serena and the young Michael Laudrup between others too.

    In fact the GAP between Juventus and the other italian teams is easy to see in all these ELO methods.

    Juventus Elo Rating 1982 (http://clubelo.com/1982-07-01/ITA) 1735. Average Italian team: 1534. = 201 Points Difference.

    Still, Juventus only won two Scudettos with Platini (in five seasons), this is a fact, Platini couldn't establish a real dominance in Italy even playing in by far the best team.

    And btw, I rate Platini he is a potentially TOP10 player of all time.

    PD:

    About Pelé vs Garrincha:

    According Media Ratings, Reports and Stats, Pelé outplayed Garrincha in WC 1958, CA 1959, WC 1962 (vs Mexico) and WC 1966 (vs Bulgaria). Yet it is true that Garrincha 1962 is up there with Cruyff 1974 and Maradona 1986.

    Btw, Pelé's goals and assists vs the big NT (Argentina, Spain, France, Germany, England, Italy) is second to none. Even out of his peak (clearly), he was by far the main expected goal contributor of Brazil in terms of expected assists and goals in the Brazil's 1970 (arguably the most dominant NT side of all time), so even out of his peak Pelé remained a highly end product player.

    You can discuss his carrer, these are facts tho.
     
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  21. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #146 leadleader, May 6, 2021 at 1:58 AM
    Last edited: May 6, 2021 at 2:23 AM

    Fernandinho committed - per the statistics - only 4 fouls, but can you honestly tell me that you honestly think that Fernandinho only committed 4 fouls against Paris Saint Germain?

    Or would you say that, as was rather painfully obvious to see; the referee arbitrarily and obviously allowed Fernandinho to simply foul at will?

    I am honestly very very interested as to what your answer is to the above questions; as I would be very amused, to see how you would explain away Fernandinho's performance as a game where he only realistically committed only 4 fouls...

    At any rate, this is precisely why statistics are incredibly misleading and irrational in this sport...

    David Beckham was, statistically, great at ball retention... Until you actually watch him play, and realize that his great ball retention is uniquely the result of him diving and getting referees to protect him; a serial diver who was rewarded with false fouls...

    The statistical impression was that Beckham was world class at ball retention, because he accumulated so many fouls and was never dispossessed, which is a strong statistical indication that he was world class at ball retention; when in reality he was falsely inflated by the referees of the Premier League, who gave him false fouls all the time.

    Beckham had a rude awakening in La Liga, where the referees did not protected him anywhere near as much; Beckham's mediocre ball retention was laid bare, for the world to see. He never really got much better in his 4 years in La Liga.

    Cristiano Ronaldo received the same referee protection in his time in the Premier League. Clearly, Alex Ferguson's influence was a big factor as to why referees exclusively protected certain players, from a certain club.

    For reference, Arsenal players clearly had a different set of rules; I still have a very clear memory of how Arsenal's Andrey Arshavin was routinely allowed to get punished, all the while defenders couldn't even cough in close proximity to Cristiano Ronaldo without getting a yellow card.

    With the above argument in mind, I have to ask you again: do you honestly think that Fernandinho committed only 4 fouls, or do you think that the referee protected (and inflated) Fernandinho's value in this game?

    Again, per my experience watching this sport; I counted at least 10 clear-cut fouls by Fernandinho. The referee was a total disgrace. Statistics are aimless and meaningless given the fact that referees can significantly alter reality itself; as was obviously the case in this game. This is what best defines modern football; referee manipulation, and the obsolete yellow card.

    My father watched the game with me, and was asking the same question as me; about 10 clear-cut fouls by Fernandinho, and not even one yellow card so far.

    In fact, the actual narrators of the game, were also commenting on the exact same thing; the fact that Fernandinho had a special license to foul at will... How many fouls will it take before he gets one yellow card?

    Modern football is a disgrace, to be honest.
     
  22. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #147 leadleader, May 6, 2021 at 2:18 AM
    Last edited: May 6, 2021 at 2:25 AM

    The big difference is that in Maldini's era, tactics were nowhere near as perfect as today, in the modern era...

    Therefore, even if Maldini was inflated as a result of referee manipulation, the opposing team still had realistic chances of simply overcoming the obstacle that was Madlini never getting yellow cards, simply because referees would refuse to treat Maldini as a normal human being.

    In modern football, the freedom to overcome players like Maldini does not exist. The intensity and pressing is incredible, and on top of that you also have players like Fernandinho who are uniquely immune to yellow cards; again, it is not realistic to expect Messi or Neymar to 'shine' when modern football suffers from what is, in fact, a constitutional imbalance.

    If this problem is not fixed, this will end up exterminating traditional individuality; there is no incentive for traditional individuality, when players like Fernandinho can simply foul at will. Fernandinho with his yellow resistant rotation fouling is, in some way, the ideal 'playmaker' of the modern game.

    The problem is... Fernandinho would not get the same yellow immunity treatment, if Fernandinho played for Atalanta, for example. In other words, modern football is a rich man's sport; money can significantly artifically inflate the value of certain players, who play for certain clubs.

    Champions League 2020/21:

    Chelsea; petro-money club.

    Manchester City; petro-money club.

    Paris Saint Germain; petro-money club.

    Real Madrid; most powerful club in history.

    The Champions League in its modern form is more or less the same thing as the European Super League; I think it is nothing short of disgusting how so many pundits and fans are pretending that the Champions League realistically functions around actual merit...

    And that special treatment that the richest clubs obviously buy with their money and power, extends into players like Fernandinho, who enjoys a different set of bizarre rules; Fernandinho never fouls in statistical terms, but your eyes are not lying to you when you see the obvious fouls accumulating, as the referee does nothing to stop the fouls by Fernandinho.
     
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  23. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #148 leadleader, May 6, 2021 at 3:26 AM
    Last edited: May 6, 2021 at 3:47 AM

    Platini was demonstrably well past his prime in Serie A 1986/87; Platini won 2 out of 4 Scudettos between 1982 and 1986, before his definitive decline in the 1986/87 season.

    Serie A 1983/84.

    Cup Winners' Cup 1983/84.

    Euro 1984.

    Champions League 1984/85.

    Serie A 1985/86.

    That is absolutely goat-tier form.

    Season 1982/83:

    Platini failed to win his first Scudetto in 1983, and this 'failure' can perhaps be justified or minimized given the fact that adaptation time in new leagues was always a factor in the 1980s.

    Season 1983/84:

    Platini won the Serie A in 1984. Platini won the Euro in 1984. Platini won the Cup Winners' Cup in 1984.

    Season 1984/85:

    When Platini failed to win the Serie A in 1985, he instead won the Champions League; Juventus's first Champions League.

    Season 1985/86:

    Platini won the Serie A again in 1986.

    Conclusion:

    Michel Platini's only 2 failures in the Serie A; one was his first season in the Serie A, the adaptation time first season; and the other one was Juventus's first Champions League title.

    In other words, between 1984 and 1986, Platini is literally winning all the important titles in world football, with the exception of World Cup 1986.

    Neither Messi not Cristiano Ronaldo have ever proved to be as constant as Michel Platini was in his prime.

    I am sorry my friend, but I just do not see other players - especially South American players - getting the same harsh criticism that Platini is getting here, and in general as well. I mean, your argument is remarkably inconsistent, with all due respect.

    The iconic AC Milan side of Ruud Gullit and Van Basten only won 2 out of 5 Scudettos, between 1987 and 1992.

    Juventus with Platini won 2 out of 4 Scudettos, between 1982 and 1986.

    I mean, why is it viewed as a great accomplishment when AC Milan did it, but not when Juventus did it??

    The fundamental inconsistency here cannot be explained with a consistent argument; if Ruud Gullit and Van Basten combined could not do better, why would you expect Platini to somehow do better?

    The dominance that you expect from Platini, was not established by any player in the 1980s nor in the 1990s; therefore, the expectation itself is almost by definition irrational, given the fact that there is no actual basis for it.

    In terms of Serie A form...

    Diego Maradona was not better than Michel Platini.

    Ruud Gullit was not better than Michel Platini.

    Marco van Basten was not better than Michel Platini.

    Michael Laudrup was viewed as a failure.

    Roberto Baggio was not better than Michel Platini.

    Dennis Bergkamp was viewed as a failure.

    In the proper context, Michel Platini was as great as any player was, and his record of 2 out of 4 Scudettos is in fact an improvement when compared versus AC Milan's 2 out of 5 Scudettos.

    At any rate, the expectation that Platini should have dominated like Messi; this is irrational, in the context of the 1980s.
     
    JoCryuff98 repped this.
  24. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    #149 JoCryuff98, May 6, 2021 at 3:34 AM
    Last edited: May 6, 2021 at 3:59 AM
    @leadleader I think people are clearly ignoring the fact that Juventus wasn’t really a major powerhouse in European competition until Platini was signed. I mean he elevated them to European powerhouse level. They were a great team in the league, but not really impressive in the European Cup. Like they reached their second EC final back in 1982-1983 during Platini’s debut season. He was definitely the significant reason behind it. What he did is pretty much what you expect from a GOAT tier player especially during his era. This entire thing regarding longevity of a player had lot to do with modern training, fitness, diet and better technology in general which helps the modern players to play for a longer period of time. I just don’t understand why people use longevity as the main factor to determine how good a player is. For example, I’ve seen people downplay Xavi and consider him inferior to Modric because he declined in his 30s, asides from the fact he’s already downplayed by some modern fans who think Xavi wasn’t a regular starter under Rijkaard era and he wasn’t great until Pep’s era, which definitely is false. It doesn’t make any sense. Ability, great performances and peak of the player is what matters. Much more than longevity.
     
    leadleader repped this.
  25. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Juventus already reached a final a decade earlier, and were unfortunate to come up against Ajax possibly at their very best.
     

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