Does Lionel Messi have too many failures to be considered the greatest footballer of all time?

You have no sense of tactics I doubt you even watch games Or just comps.

 

Says the retarded poster who attempted to draw up a straight up tactical comparison between gerd muller and Cristiano Ronaldo

In any case does my post offend you?


It shouldn't
Messi combined the most league goals in a single la liga season with the most successful throughballs in a single la liga season and that was probably only 75% of his game


Outside of arguably Chelsea he ran completely riot against anyone and everyone(formations,managers,stadiums it made no difference)
Ashley cole was made to look like a pub player in literally one of messis most subdued performances all season


Briefly(i promised to never respond to you)
The tactical side of the game doesnt overly interest me to the point that id be willing to engage in extensive back and forths(fantasy formations and the like even less)

Different things for different people

Regarding yourself
There is no merit in discussing with someone who consistently insists on making completely absurd analogies and has such shallow opinions(if you can even call it that)

Abraham 'zombie' Lincoln 2021

"Carlito

Alfredo dee stefaano Is A ToP 5 ATG
I know this because i havent watched even two 90 minute matches of his

Its a religious conviction i have developed based on things i recently read on a internet article
An internet article whos web address i cant even remember

The other 50% of my football knowledge is derived from the comment section of YouTube.
Comments written by anonymous people who i dont know and have never seen

Im not an independent thinker just rookie student of the game who regurgitates fringe opinions spouted on dark corners of the net.
Opinions that are held predominantly by a very fringe sub category of mentally deranged freaks masquerading themselves as fans of Lionel Messi


But i can tell you one thing with absolute certainty and conviction
Penaldo is a bArEly ImpRoved fillipo inzaghi or BicAn(who my retarded self never actually watched even one goal of)


ADS 2012
Cristiano is a phenomenon,”
“He is number one – a barbaric player
I’d say he is the complete player. You can see that opponents fear him. For me Cristiano is the best.”
https://www.football-espana.net/2013/11/26/di-stefano-ronaldo-a-phenomenon

 

why are you so pressed? Where is this great and mighty cr7 outside his superteam feeding him tapins at intl level (oh i forgot he becomes Cristiano columbus) Bt what about actual opponents Not single great international tournament campaign (Even the ones where he wasn’t dogshit was just goals and moments in few games or 1/2 good game and shit in rest)

Not a single good campaign, man that’s honestly tough pull off ngl https://t.co/pqD2UeH7wC

— 🚧Check Pinned🚧 (@FussballHJ) October 29, 2021

 

LMAO.

Antonio Cassano is - and I mean no offense by this stereotype - a typical no nonsense Italian.

Then again, Cassano played next to Francesco Totti for many years; probably grew up wanting to be the next Roberto Baggio; definitely grew up and was developed by one of the strongest leagues of all time, the Serie A in the 1990s, etc. In other words, it makes sense that Cassano would not be particularly impressed by Cristiano Ronaldo's style of play.

As a side note, I think that Cassano at the height of his powers - with Sampdoria - was every bit as good as Cristiano Ronaldo was in his time with Juventus. Cassano was a true prodigy in terms of technique, but sadly it never materialized into a great career with one of the big clubs. Still, Cassano had 1 or 2 years with Sampdoria where he was playing at an elite level.

 

Im italian and i've seen the entire Cassano career, and honestly i feel like his best years were in Rome between 2003 and 2005.

 

I am not Italian, but I have watched all of the available games of Roma between 2001 and 2005 (because of Totti, more than because of Cassano), and Cassano, while very spectacular in terms of technical ability, was very inconsistent when it came to end product.

In his Sampdoria days, Cassano retained all of the technical wonder, but added consistent end product; there is no comparison in my opinion, with all due respect.

On a different note, would you say that Cassano never quite was - not even in his physical prime - as fast as prime Roberto Baggio?

I think Francesco Totti probably was the best Serie A player of all time; Roberto Baggio is more impressive or theatrical, but Totti I think fully reached his potential in the Serie A, and was a truly marvelous player to watch on a consistent basis. Something that isn't mentioned enough about Totti, was how unique his physical ability was; his feet appeared to be literally weightless, in a similar way to Philipp Lahm's feet, but Totti was a lot taller and bigger than Lahm was, which made Totti a very interesting and unique player to watch.

Unfortunately, after a bad ankle break in February 2006, Totti was never the same player again, he was already 29 years old, which definitely played a factor in his definitive decline as a technician, but even then, how he played World Cup 2006 with that 'recovered' ankle is beyond me.

 

He was great in 2006 World Cup. I'm not going to bring up stats. Have you watched?

 

The year 2022 could, I say could, be the year of total consecration for Lionel Messi.
Indeed, this year 2022, could be his last very productive year from a soccer point of view.
The fact of having chosen Paris Saint-Germain is not, for the moment, a good idea in view of the current results and performances of the team, but it gives him 100x more chance to win trophies than with Barcelona.
It goes that he will most likely win the French Championship and possibly the French Cup.
The only challenge will be to win the Champions League with Paris.
If Paris Saint-Germain manages to win it (which is far from the case at the moment considering the level of play offered) and Messi is one of the protagonists then I think he will have finished burying the competition from a club point of view.
Then, the end of 2022 will be punctuated by the World Cup in Qatar.
I don't want to get ahead of myself, but the current Argentine team has never been as strong as when Messi plays.
He has finally won the trophy he has always hoped for and this team will arrive at the next World Cup with confidence.
Just imagine if Lionel Messi manages to be the guide and lead Argentina to victory, as he did this year in the Copa America? (although the level will be higher).
Then I think there will be no more debate about the title of best player of all time and that's why I say that Messi will probably feel "tired" of winning and will not have anything to prove.
Moreover, I don't know how the title of best player of the year will be organized in 2022 (FIFA the Best and Ballon d'Or) because with the World Cup 2022, I think there is a good chance that they will make votes after the World Cup for a celebration in January or February 2023.
We could certainly have Messi won his 8th (considering the probable 7th this year) Ballon d'Or and thus put an end to all past and even future competition in soccer history.
By the way, have you also noticed that it's been a while since the best players of the World Cup are not winners of the World Cup?
You have to go back to 1994 with Romario, to see a World Cup MVP who won the World Cup (1998: Ronaldo, 2002: Kahn, 2006: Zidane, 2010:Forlan, 2014:Messi, 2018: Modric).
Which would unfortunately mean that if Messi wins the World Cup next year, he will not be able to win the title of MVP?
Also, I don't know if anyone would disagree with me, but no one has had more MVP trophies in international competitions in history than Messi right? Not even Pele or Maradona?
(World Championship U20 2005, Olympic Games 2008, World Cup 2014, Copa America 2015, Copa AMerica 2021).
One more at the World Cup next year, would make it a double-double (Continental and International Competition), never seen.

Then to say that Messi has too many failures in national selection is a little bit redibitory, we could reverse the problem by saying that he still went 4 times to the final of Copa America, winner of the Olympic Games and once in the final of the World Cup, so at least 6 times in the final of major competition.
As a comparison, only some Brazilians of the great era (Ronaldo, Cafu, Dida, Zé Roberto) have done better and in a more remote time the Uruguayans of the years 1910-1920-1930 have done better with Scarone with 9 finals in total.

Of course, we don't know if Pele could have won other trophies with Brazil (especially the Copa America) if this one had not been denigrated by Brazil, but it belongs to history.

Ps : by the way, I find it quite incredible that the MVP award was given to Alexis Sanchez rather than Leo Messi at the Copa Centenario 2016.
I even think that Eduardo Vargas would have deserved it more than Sanchez.

 

I would agree with this comment. Regarding Gerd Muller I have viewed some compilations of him lately and he was a much more rounded player than portrayed. He frequently dropped deep to help his team win back the ball and instigate attacks with his link-up play. This compilation demonstrates his all-round contribution in addition to his extraordinary goalscoring ability with Muller dropping deep frequently to help out defensively and instigate attacks.

 

IMO Lionel Messi. He’s already in the top 5 of all time but it’s too late for him to be the undisputed best of all time in football due to his performances in International level and also with his former club (Barcelona) not stepping up in big games against tougher opposition and also not delivering an all time great performance in the World Cup. Messi in the UCL against tougher opposition has not been impressive enough! Messi struggled against good teams like atletico Madrid that team were like classic italian teams 13/14 season, Inter 2010, chelsea 2005-2009, Roma 2018, Liverpool 2019, Bayern 2020, no all time great has bottled over 4 International finals in history. Messi also played in the farmers which was La Liga only dominated by two teams the rest were not good, only Atletico after 2013 became good but not same level as Barcelona and Real Madrid. Anyways, I am interested on what’s going to happen in Qatar 2022 WC hopefully we will see Messi actually Perform!

 

This guy knows nothing

What did Maradona do in the following matches?

International level
Vs Brazil 1979(Copa America)
Vs Brazil 1982(world cup)
Vs Italy 1982(world cup)
Vs Uruguay 1987(Copa america)
Vs Brazil 1989(Copa America)
Vs Uruguay 1989(Copa America)
Vs Italy 1990(world cup)
Vs west Germany 1990(world cup)


Club level
Vs Manchester United 1983/84( UEFA cup winners cup)
Vs real Madrid 1987/88(EC)
Vs werder Bremen 1989/90(UEFA)
Vs spartak moscow 1990/91(EC)
Vs sampdoria 1988/89(Copa Italia)

Destroyed 4-0 in a Italian cup final
A very big match for a club of Napolis stature




Argentina/barcelona/Napoli lost every single one of these encounters except the SF vs Italy in 1990

Maradona missed a penalty in the shootout and was saved by Sergio Goycochea

In all the other encounters Maradona lost and Maradona contributed with 0 goals and 0 assists


You take 1986 out of the equation and what big cup performances is he left with?


Probably just one vs real Madrid in 1982/83(Copa del rey final) and i actually need to revist how good a all round performance it was because my memory is hazy right now

If we call a spade a spade
Apart from the assist to canniga he did nothing against Brazil in 1990
Literally nothing

99% of Maradonas big game legacy is heavily concentrated in one summer in Mexico
Never seen a ATG so dependent on one month of his career


If you want to say Maradona was great in domestic league football that is something else

But all the failures of Messi you mentioned are in knockout competitions

Maradona was a demonstrable failure in knockout style competitions outside of one world cup tournament

 

hey leadleader what is your top 10 players of all time ?

 

Can't add to this.
I'd love to see any other ATG playing for Barcelona against Bayern in 2020 lol!

 

I know you’re probably just trolling at this point.
So I’m just going to fill in some blanks not for your sake but other that read the thread.

Maradona career cup finals: 8
Maradona assists in career cup finals: 9
Tie breaking or equalising assists: 5
Assist to give two goal advantage with most of the games still to go: 2

(each and every assist was a value added assist, I.e. creating a bigger opportunity than already existed before he received the ball)

Informed people also know in games he was kept quiet (Bilbao copa del Rey final, Italy 82 World Cup), they used VIOLENCE to stop him (the referees allowed it). If you want to watch someone get beaten up, go watch those two games.



MOTM performances when his team got knocked out when he supposedly did nothing:



4 big chances created, 1 assist



Many big chances created, count them if you want.

Came on as a substitute in the second leg, created a big chance and scored in the penalty shootout.


Video of performance against Brazil 82 has disappeared. He had created two big chances and denied a penalty that he won himself by the referee, that’s just from what I remember a long time ago.


FYI, the cherry on the cake of your troll post is that Maradona scored his penalty in the semifinal against Italy. I think it was the glory winning penalty that CR likes to wait for and notoriously leave his team to get knocked out before he can take.

 

Dont forget to read the small print
0 open play goals in World cup finals
0 open play goals in copa America finals
0 open play goals in European cup finals
0 open play goals in copa libertadores finals
0 open play goals in Uefa cup finals
0 open play goals in copa Italia finals

Yugoslavia in the QF?
Small details that doesn't change the overall picture one bit

Just confirms hes human

Champions league final where misses a crucial penalty after being amazing throughout the match(2008)

Champions league final where he scores the winning penalty after being a non factor throughout the match(2016)

Some people are just blessed with good fortune i guess

 

@carlito86
Considering what you said about Maradona, what is your top 5 of all-time?

 

I would also like to mention Toulouse 86/87. During his title winning season, Napoli were Koed in the first round of the uefa cup and he didn't perform very well there

 

LMAO. You must be likely the type of poster who bought myths that CR his whole career scores tap-ins. My suggestion, actually watch his 2006 WC, which I doubt you even knew he participated in the tournament

He was great vs France in 2006 for example

 

If this is called some great/legendary performance, i don't even know what to say. This seems literally like a average Franck Ribery , Ryan Giggs performance.
Some ball progressions down the wings , cutting inside a few moments and nothing else that much literally

I am not even sure if this is a good performance to begin with let alone great.
A solid/decent probably would've sounded better. At best a 7 out of 10 performance.
I've seen other desperate CR7 stans also bring this up on social media . What i feel is , probably because he seemed less stiff and more agile in that performance than on usual , and involved more in general play is what deludes them like its a great performance

 

5 - Frenkie de Jong completed five dribbles in consecutive #EURO2020 games, the last five players to do so in consecutive European Championship games:
Frenkie de Jong (2021)
Franck Ribéry (2012)
Cristiano Ronaldo (2004)
Zinedine Zidane (2000)
Luís Figo (2000)
Elite. pic.twitter.com/3SKkyJJ8Hz

— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) June 17, 2021

1 - Cristiano Ronaldo, playing in his very first World Cup, finished the 2006 tournament with the joint-most shots (26), and also the most attempted dribbles (37):

37 - Cristiano Ronaldo
36 - Franck Ribéry
29 - Thierry Henry
28 - Luis Figo
25 - Kaká

Effervescent. #OptaWCYears pic.twitter.com/0ZkgdfbnHs

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) May 13, 2020

20 - Cristiano Ronaldo has become the first European player in World Cup and European Championship history to score a combined 20 goals across the two competitions. Greatest. #POR #EURO2020 pic.twitter.com/UX7rWGZMyJ

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) June 23, 2021

Franck Ribery+Gerd Muller =something close to Cristiano Ronaldo
Still lacking the peak FK taking ability, shot power and goals from long ranges


In light of every available fact and career milestone reached it is clownish to put Ribery even in the same ballpark as Cristiano (as a talent or otherwise)


Cristiano Ronaldo comprehensively outdribbled Zidane and Ronaldinho in the 2006 World cup

Completed more dribbles in 2006/07 CL then Ronaldinho in 2005/06 or 2004/05

Is the all time top scorer in the Champions league with every single relevant record to his name
Most goals in a season
Most FK goals
Most headers
Most penalties
Most assists
Most knockout goals
Most trophies(modern format -i know Gento won 6)


Peak cristiano Ronaldo is overrated according to many here

Who are the players in football history who combined the following

1 peak season(2007/08)

Premier league MVP

Champions league MVP

Champions league top scorer

Premier league top scorer

Most dribbles completed in the PL

2nd most dribbles completed in a CL final

most match winning goals scored in a single premier league season

 

If it is the average Ribery performance I'd like to hear why Ribery didnt perform like that as well

 

This was Cristiano Ronaldo every other weekend in England and Tuesday/Wednesday in Europe between 2005-2008

Except with many many more goals and many more assists

That aint no great career defining Ronaldo performance(vs France 2006)
Thats something utterly ridiculous to even insinuate




Its typical
Only difference is he did it against France in a world cup SF

Its His best world cup semi final performance but then that's the only SF performance hes played out so that doesn't mean a whole lot


He was very good vs France without being great.
we know how a goal or two changes the perception of a performance and that's what he was severely lacking in the 2006 World cup


I always wondered how agile and involved in build up play Maradona was when he played in a European cup final or copa libertadores final.

his final performances must've been deleted of YouTube...or maybe it never even existed

 

What do you even mean? Ribery has way better performances than this lol over his career. And if you mean this particular game, you are acting like this is some masterclass or greatest ever level performance in a world cup semifinal which will be very stupid to even to think
I don't recall ribery performance in this game that much, i will probably be able to say after i watch it again . And how boldly you say this i don't seem to get it. Didn't Ribery have a very good game against Spain that world cup which is probably better than this? (maybe i am wrong who knows) .
And asking question like that is very stupid and ridiculous . Dybala destroyed Barcelona in Champions League quarterfinal. its like asking if Messi is superior player (i don't say Ribery is a better player than CR7 btw) and can have better performance than that, why didn't he perform better than dybala that match. And i said before, it seems more of a solid or decent performance , nothing absolutely that special or great to me

 

If I ever find enough time, I would like to do a video of Ronaldo vs. France 2006, just to demonstrate how much of a misguided and uneducated argument it is to actually believe that that was some great performance lmao.

From memory, I remember it as a 7 out of 10, or at the most, as a 7+ out of 10. Then again, I watched that game in 2006, so my memory of that game is more or less completely worthless, to be honest.

At the same time, I plan to watch that watch that game, and I think my opinion will still be a 7 out of 10 performance; Ronaldo just doesn't seem to do much of anything impactful, outside of completing dribbling runs and/or ball progression runs here and there.

Ronaldo fanboys typically have a difficult time contextualizing how this sport actually functions; they will look at the quantity of runs by Ronaldo, but then they will ignore the quality of Ronaldo's runs, that is, the actual impact and end product of Ronaldo's runs.

Ronaldo fanboys also typically forgot all about "dribbling runs" when Ronaldo became a poacher of goals, quickly after 2015.

Ronaldo vs. France 2006:

Not enough end product, but a great performance because Ronaldo allegedly completed a lot of dribbling runs and/or ball progression runs, etc.

Ronaldo vs. Bayern Munich 2017:

Ronaldo doesn't do dribbling runs anymore, but he is the best player in the world at the most difficult and valuable thing: to score goals. Ronaldo single-handedly carried Real Madrid.

In other words, Ronaldo fans will use the argument that most benefits Ronaldo at any given point in Ronaldo's career; there is no actual long term philosophical conviction behind any of the arguments made by Ronaldo's fans