Does Lionel Messi have too many failures to be considered the greatest footballer of all time?

Some of his remarks are partially whereas i am baffled by some others and can't literally agree with them. Its true Pele was lot like Messi , both very similiar in their roles and gameplay i'd say . Both prolific creator and scorer of their teams , very direct and goal bound. And being direct, caused lot of dispossessions for both . (Aside from the fact that, players usually got more dispossessed relatively because of how adverse the playing conditions were). Pele was also inventive in his gameplay like Maradona , more than messi. What does he mean here actually who knows. Pele for the role and position he played , probably seemed to have no prominent offensive weakness as well. Some like Maradona had advantages in certain aspects of the games over him, and their gameplay was also bit different imo. Similiar is the case for Platini, who was a different sort of player from Pele and inspite of that , i don't see how Platini could be claimed to be a better player than Pele . Only possible explanantion can be if a person actually values players who were more of midfielders than who were relatively more forward

 

Messi is obviously not a defender, but he also is very direct and, in the context of the Champions League, does not know how to be sufficiently dangerous without being very direct in due process (unlike Ronaldinho or Maradona), which is why he gets dispossessed so many times even though he is the best dribbler of his generation, and which is probably a good part of the reason why Barcelona gets their ass handed to them on the defensive end; Messi walks when not on the ball; all the while, Messi also gets dispossessed a lot of the time.

Messi does not really defend, and he also gets dispossessed a lot... That is a double-negative on the defensive end, of an already defensively fragile Barcelona team.

And also; Messi probably has 2 or 3 defenders around him, because Messi walks when not on the ball, which allows defenders to surround him in the first place.

And also; Liverpool just steamrolled Barcelona's fragile midfield; that is what happened, more than anything else... I do not remember watching Messi get crushed under the pressure of 2 or 3 defenders that were on him, at all times.

In fact, what I do vividly remember about the second leg vs. Liverpool, is Messi being basically a coward when the situation presented itself...

Arturo Vidal won the ball in an ideal position of the pitch, as he immediately served the counter-attack for Messi; and then Messi played his cards like a calculative mathematician, not as the creative genius that he is perceived to be.

Messi simply ran through what was mostly empty space, and then served the easy half-chance assist to Coutinho, in an uniquely dangerous sequence where both of Liverpool's central defender were on the back foot; Messi should've ran directly into Virgil van Dijk; directly at the heart of Liverpool's defence, because Van Dijk was himself sufficiently exposed in that situation...

But Messi lacked the courage to take that risk.

Messi did the easiest possible thing he could do in said sequence of play; he ran through what was mostly empty space, and then delivered a half-chance to Coutinho. Messi passed the bucket to Coutinho.

Coutinho was expected to do the more difficult job of scoring a relatively difficult goal.

And on a similar note, Arturo Vidal was also expected to do the more difficult task of winning back the possession, which he did on the basis of an excellent slide tackle if my memory isn't failing me here.

All the while, Messi did the arguably easier task of so-called ball progression through what was almost exclusively empty space, and then serving an easy short pass for Coutinho. Basically, Messi didn't have to dribble past one single Liverpool player, and then Messi also failed to take the risk of at least realistically attempting to destroy Liverpool's defence, as he opted to do the most risk-safe thing he could possibly do.

A player like Zinedine Zidane would've almost certainly gone for the glory in that exact type of counter-attacking sequence; regardless of the actual outcome, you just know that Zidane will dribble directly at the defence, assuming the risk and expecting the reward... But then again, Zidane would be 2 goals in front of Liverpool, so the risk itself is not even that big; Zidane would be assuming said risk with a 2 goal advantage.

In sharp contrast, Messi played money-ball tactics on the pitch; Messi quite literally did the most risk-free thing he could do, the easiest thing he could do, the most ordinary thing he could do, even when the situation was extraordinarily simple; Barcelona still enjoyed a not insignificant 2 goal advantage versus Liverpool; Barcelona could absolutely assume the risk of Messi trying and perhaps failing to go for glory himself; but Messi denied himself the opportunity to be great, as Messi decided to simply pass the bucket to Coutinho.

Messi did not do that because he was getting crushed by 2 or 3 defenders who were on him at all times; Messi did that because, a lot of the time, he just thinks like a mathematician... he will do the most risk-free solution that he can think of, instead of allowing himself the chance to be creative in ways that are not strictly pragmatic or functional.

That works extremely well for Messi in La Liga, but it has never truly worked in the Champions League, World Cup, nor the Copa America; cup formats, to put it simply.

Messi could have played like Maradona or Platini in the second leg vs. Liverpool; Jordi Alba should've been benched, a better defender should've played in Alba's position, and Messi should have played basically as another extra midfielder to punish the Liverpool side that needed to score 3 goals at the very least...

Instead, Jordi Alba must be included because Messi can only play direct football; his way; one note football; ergo, Jordi Alba is untouchable because Messi needs him, and Jordi Alba is always the defensive liability he always is even in the best of times, even when Liverpool was already 3 goals behind, at which point a more solid defender than Alba would make total sense, but then again, Messi needs Alba, and the vicious circle of self-destruction continues as Messi continues to be excused.

Barcelona is uniquely built around Messi; but Messi is not a defender, and therefore Messi is absolutely not to blame for Barcelona's atrocious defending...

That is a very funny interpretation of the concept of a team sport; Messi is to received all the credit when Barcelona is flying high... But then Messi is to receive no criticism at all, when Barcelona is pathetic ever since Neymar said bye bye.

The fact that you cannot realize the huge problem with the demonstrable dynamic explained above, tells me that you simply do not want to acknowledge the fact that football is a team sport; the fact that defending is a team effort, and Messi is walking his ass whenever he is not on the ball, which makes defending a lot more difficult for Barcelona.

That is a self-evident fact.

Honestly, how can you seriously entertain the idea that Messi is not hugely responsible for what happened vs. Roma 2018 in the second leg, and again for what happened vs. Liverpool 2019 in the second leg?

It happened two times, in consecutive seasons; Barcelona got confident and paid the price in the second leg, as Messi failed to make any adjustments to his playing style; Barcelona is built around Messi; Messi is absolutely at the heart of the problem.

Messi does not run when not on the ball.

Messi does not adjust his playing style.

Messi fails to score decisive penalty kicks in the Champions League.

The biggest irony here, in my eyes, is the extremely probable scenario that Barcelona 2019 without Alba and without Messi; Barcelona 2019 would have very easily secured a 1-3 defeat vs. Liverpool in the second leg; the 1-3 defeat would have been enough to advance to the final.

Oh wait, now I finally understand the truth of the matter: Messi is actually the one who is carrying Barcelona, so he deserves more money. Yeah, that makes total sense.

Let us ignore the walking when not on the ball; the missed penalty kicks; the lack of inventiveness when a high difficulty game needs something other than just another direct and failed dribbling run by Messi; no, nobody could've done more than Messi, and in fact, Messi actually deserves more money because he is the only one who is 'carrying' this Barcelona team.

Modern football is out of its f@cking mind.

Cristiano Ronaldo is 'carrying' Juventus, literally as Juventus becomes a worse team because of Ronaldo.

Lionel Messi is 'carrying' Barcelona, literally as Barcelona cannot even get past a seriously depleted Liverpool; or the significantly inferior Roma.

The religious cult of personality is at the heart of modern football. Messi is too big to fail. Ronaldo is too big to fail. They never fail; instead, it is Barcelona that failed Messi; it is Juventus that failed Ronaldo. This is pathetic cult behavior by the newest generation of fans.

There always is a designated comprehensive collection of excuses, to explain away the many, oh so many, inconsistencies that surround these two deities of the modern game.

The only reason why Barcelona gets the 0-4 defeat, is because Messi fails to score decisive penalty kicks when under pressure; Messi is not particularly solid in terms of mentality, not in the cup format; Messi is there, and therefore Alba is also there, and Barcelona gets steamrolled again and again, by Roma and then by Liverpool.

Put Luis Suarez in there, without Alba, and without Messi, and Barcelona will not get an absolutely unreal 0-4 defeat.

Literally, the 0-4 defeat to the significantly depleted Liverpool in the second leg; it was more or less as probable as getting attacked by a f@cking shark at your local beach spot. How in the world does Messi get away with being as irrelevant as he was, in that second leg?

I'm f@cking sick and tired of the excuses that Messi gets in the Champions League. Yes, Messi probably is the goat at league level, but he is extremely flawed at cup level; the Copa del Rey cannot hide the version of Messi that we routinely see at the Copa America, the World Cup, and the Champions League.

Roma 2018 was inferior vs. Barcelona 2018.

Liverpool 2019 (significantly depleted) was inferior vs. Barcelona 2019.

Messi is a problem at the Champions League; he lacks inventiveness as a playmaker, he lacks mental fortitude as a leader, and he offers little to nothing when not on the ball. All of this is hugely important in the final 3 or 4 games of the Champions League.

 

@sohel_bashar

 

If Messi is too direct sometimes I agree but Maradona was a lot of time lacked "a tactical intelligence " that caused his team a trouble like Argentina82.

 

I think imho peak Zico is still the best in term of balance with tactical intelligence and not being too directed like Messi.

 

This shouldn't be too controversial but Messis 2007/08 CL campaign was probably better than anything Maradona produced in the European cup/UEFA cup or copa libertadores

This before we even start talking about peak

6 goals+2 assists in 726 minutes(8~ matches) with over 5 dribbles per 90

4 - Leo Messi dribbles completed in Champions League in 2004/05, 2005/06, 2006/07 and 2007/08 seasons:
- 2004/05: 6 (1 GP)
- 2005/06: 11 (6 GP)
- 2006/07: 9 (5 GP)
- 2007/08: 43 (9 GP)

Progression pic.twitter.com/21EzaB9RUo

— OptaJose (@OptaJose) May 7, 2020

Peak Messi scored or assisted 113 official goals during a 365 day period(2012)

You'd have to be living in a twlight zone to think there is/was any coach,football boots,football pitch,climate,tactics,time zone,attitude that would enable Maradona to be so effective

The records are real and can't ever be distorted or amended
Messi surpassed Maradonas career goal haul when he was 26 years old(2013)
This is factual

Its now 8 years later and Messi has scored during those 8 years as many goals(400~) as Thierry Henry had scored during 20 years of his entire career(1994-2014)

Messi is indisputably in the conversation for the greatest goalscorer of all time
Maradona is not

This is another fact

I don't know what the heck leadleader is talking about Maradona translating his world class form across all cup formats


In European cup competitions his record was 0.25 goals per game for napoli

5 goals in 25 European cup/Uefa cup appearences

If you remove his 3 penalties that drops down to 0.08 goals per match
Maradona undoubtedly an ATG was a statistical bust while playing in Europe
No revisionism can change this

I mean for arguments sake if all we had was Messi or Cristiano Ronaldos international performances on one side and on the other side Maradonas 0.08 non penalty goals per game in European cup competitions for napoli who do you think would come out look more malleable?

Maradonas 1986 WC is not representative of his normal level
It's not substantiated by anything in fact

Which is why valdano said guardiola era Messi was 1986 Maradona everyday

The inference to be drawn from this is Maradona was defintely not Maradona 1986 every day otherwise why would he have to point to an extremely isolated part of his career(7 matches) if that was just his normal level ?

When we talk of peak Messi (generally)we point towards a 10 year period with a minor(overstated)hiccup in 2013/14

2010/11 maybe better than 2009/10 and 2011/12 maybe better than 2010/11 etc but its all peak Messi
A defined peak

When hazard scores a goal like he did against west ham some years back(or Liverpool)it was said
"He looks like Messi" and everybody knows what is meant by that

He looked like what was normalised by Messi across 100s of matches
You dont have to point towards a specific tournament or year for the casual fan to understand what youre referring to

Messi career has been synonymous with the kind of brilliance that marked Diego Maradona across one single tournament played in Mexico

Of course no one is saying Maradona was average outside that one tournament but if he was even half the player most the time hed still be a top level player
Truth is Maradonas form was indifferent for a lot of his time in Italy

The match reports(and now advanced data)is there for anyone to see



Platinis EC 1984 is even more of an outlier for him
His 3× capocannoniere is a vastly overrated achievement considering all the strikers he was competing against ranged from barely above average to completely shit

Pruzzo,altobelli,maurizio lorio,virdis etc

Zico came to Italy past his prime most likely and put up better numbers(per 90) with better media ratings aswell in Serie A

There were no Good/world class strikers in Italy until the arrival of guys like voller,van basten,careca and later on batistuta
Aldo serena and signori peaked around the same era aswell

Before Someone mentions Paulo rossi he had a short lived renaissance during few world cup games in 1982 but his league form was patchy to say the least

When Rossi was a relatively good league performer(the late 70s) platini was still playing in France



During that short window( 82-84) during platinis prime the level of attackers in Italy was barely above average with extremely boring tactical battles played out leading to closely fought victories/losses
There was nothing romantic about this

The emergence of Serie A as a top quality league came in the last few years of Maradonas tenure with napoli and ended at the beginning of the 21st century


To summarise it is patently false and literally a figment of some fans imagination that Maradona/Platini were more constant(not even in relative terms)

All i see is cherry picked examples to construct an entirely false narrative that the modern era is overrated


Let's talk about why platini decided to retire at 31 years old
And about how he lost the league twice to teams with probably not even half the spending budget of juventus(Verona and napoli)


Lets talk about Maradonas exemplary form in European cup competitions

About how Argentina went on to dominate the copa America after his international retirement and with him achieved mediocre results

I don't think many oldies here want to have that conversation unfortunately
Some myths are just too ingrained in their psyche

 

Yeah Messi and Maradona are both more of dribblers than Pele and yeah i think their physique allowed them to have a superior close control and had a better technique of running with the ball. (I usually classify ball control and first touch as another category - things like trapping the ball, receiving it by chest or various parts of the body where i think one could argue Pele and Maradona were almost equally good and messi just bit behind both in this category although he's not bad)

I was just comparing in terms of their playing style and roles , both Messi and Pele being more of direct, goal bound players whose role was to score and create loads of goals for others, dropping deep and progressing the ball.

And true there's a lot similarities between Zico and Messi. Zico had more passing varieties i'd say , better freekick taker but overall Messi is like a more destructive version of Zico you could say.

 

Not taking away the merit , as of course you can do the similiar thing for lot of brilliant plays. He still made that solo run and scored the goal. My response was simply to someone who brought in Real Madrid's defensive structure in the discussions above , just putting the whole scenario into context .

 

Zico had more ways of scoring than Messi.He could scored bicycle kick,better weak foot,better header and could scored scorpion kick too but he was not better scorer than Messi.On Maradona vs Zico,I think Zico had more intelligence in the game,better scorer(included freekicks),better through ball and short passer and more of a team player but Maradona on the other hand was a better dribbler,controlled the game better,better medium-long range passer and more of invidualistic and ego(that caused his team in good and bad way).

I would choose prime Zico on my list over prime Maradona because the gap of scoring between them was bigger than the gap between them on dribbler and Zico was more team oriented and more tactical intelligenced than Maradona.

 

@sohel_bashar What do you think?

 

I’ve watched Zico’s Flamengo games(1978 onwards), but him being a better finisher is incredibly arguable. Young Maradona until his ankles were broken by Goikoetxea was a brilliant player in terms of goal scoring department. Especially during his years with Argentinos Juniors. Hell, even after his post injury years, Maradona was the top scorer of 1987-1988 Serie A. I just do not think Zico was a smarter player neither was he a better short passer either. Maybe you have watched more Zico games because I’m making this judgement from his late 70s till early 80s career with Flamengo and his Udinese career. Some say Zico was a much better player during early 70s with Flamengo, but those said match footages doesn’t seem to be available.

 

You know who I’m really impressed with relative to his position in terms of goal scoring department? Michel Platini. This man was the top scorer in three consecutive years during the best era of Serie A. Also, the top scorer of 1984-1985 CL, when Juve won it and his fabulous Euro 84 performances. @leadleader was right about him being a genius scorer relative to his position. I’ve always found Platini pretty underrated for a GOAT tier player because people do not mention him much(even before his scandals as an administrator). I personally think he’s the greatest passer in the game. Need to watch more of his games during his tenure with Nancy and Saint-Etienne. I wonder whether Saint-Etienne would’ve won the 1976 CL if they had Platini?

 

I don't understand how are quantifying their tactical intelligence. I haven't thought and paid much attention to it. It would've be better if you could demonstrate that with some videos and examples, as i am always eager to learn .
However based on what i've seen and dug into , apart from aesthetic factor, Maradona still was better . Zico probably was better scorer of the two ,but he also usually played in higher scoring teams on average. Maradona aside from him advantage in terms of getting past defenders , seems to possess more passing varieties maybe, possessed more creation materials in terms of crossing, deliveries from corners and set-pieces its seems, physically stronger and probably more athletic of the two , and as leadleader said goat of ball retention and more inventive in terms of skills, tricks,doing something out of nothing (like pele ,ronaldinho etc) in his gameplay and i think these are actually significant advantages which makes him a better player overall. Also maradona had the mental edge to him i think (zico probably bit like Messi here from some reports on this platform it seems)

 

First of all I'm Zico lover or maybe you can call me "the bodyguard of Zico"lmao.When Messi has dribbled from young kid to now a grown men I always think that he has dribbled like Zico becuase I think Zico and Messi are smoother dribbler,less tricky dribbler and the most important things despite Maradona had better close control than Zico(but not Messi)Zico and Messi usually dribble more on the close control than Maradona who was in my opinion the best dribbler in open-space and the wing area.In my personal, Zico and Maradona skills set were as good as each other.You can argue that Maradona is better or Zico is better it's up to you(I think Zico is better) but remember my quote if Maradona had more disciplined and more scoring prowess,he could easily pass Pele or even Messi in all time ranking list (the best) and Zico my favourite if he had Maradona mentality not so soft when faced dirty defenders like Pasarella and Gentile , leadership skills and not injury-prone,he would be the best ever.

 

I do not rate Pele above Maradona(I admit I haven’t watched many club football matches from Pele because they aren’t available). Also, his goal scoring prowess was phenomenal until he got injured, like I’ve stated earlier. I just do not rate Pele above other GOAT tier players like Maradona, Cruijff, Messi, Platini etc from what I’ve seen so far.

 

Still my football idol forever.The close control,perfect through ball,scoring monster,great dribbler and intelligence player.
On passing compare with today greats
Zico=more of Bruno passing type
Maradona=more of KDB passing type

 

Maradona one of the best football players ever.Perfect dribbler,god of improvisation,great mentality and great medium to long range passer.

 

Maradona was pretty underrated defensively too. There’s this misconception that Maradona had poor workrate and defensive ability.

 

If I want to talk about the intelligence of the greats like Pele,Messi,Cryuff,Maradona and Zico,I will create a new thread but I'm sure that it's not coming soon because although I have watched and studied all of their beauty but I have a lot of work(I'm heart surgeon ) and another important thing is I want to make sure that you will get the most informations for me.I love the debate with you,I appreciate your informations and the love of the game.

 

Congratulations,your idol Cryuff is the most tactical intelligence player that i have ever seen in my life.
My ranking for tactial intelligence 1.Cryuff
2.Messi
3.Zico=Pele
4.Maradona