Does Bobby = Nomar?

Discussion in 'D.C. United' started by todda74, Nov 2, 2004.

  1. todda74

    todda74 New Member

    Nov 4, 2001
    Annapolis
    Just like the person who lost the most out of the Red Sox World Series win is Nomar Garciaparra, if DC wins MLS Cup can the same be said about Bobby?

    Boston ships out Nomar and they win, Convey goes to England and the team gets on their hottest streak since he joined the team.
    I"m not saying Bobby was at fault, but is there anything to be said about his departure and the team's improvement?
     
  2. SABuffalo786

    SABuffalo786 New Member

    May 18, 2002
    Buffalo, New York
    Hmmmm, Curse of the Bobbybinno?
     
  3. mpruitt

    mpruitt Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    E. Somerville
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    You'd be refering to the Ewing Theory, and the difference is that Nomar passed up a chance at signing a contract with the Sox and then missed out on winning the World Series he now is forced to ask for a one year contract to prove himself. He's going to wind up losing out bigtime finacially in this, potentially.

    Convey went on to more money and a chance at playing in a much more prestigious situation. Sure it might stink for him to miss out on winning an MLS Cup. But lets be honest, going from a Nation-wide icon of a city that is absolutely crazy about your sport and team, to Thanks Beautiful is pretty harsh. Not to mention missing out on ending an 86 year old championship drought, doesn't really compare to getting United it's third MLC Cup in nine years of existence.
     
  4. JayRockers!

    JayRockers! Member+

    Aug 4, 2001
    Get Bent. It took about 10 games after Bobby left for the team to find it's groove. Especially after Nelsen and Rimando came back and Gomez joined the team. And the situation under which Bobby left was completely different. There was no way we were going to win the Cup last year if the transfer went through. Mods--I don't see any value in this thread staying open.

    Thx,

    Jay!
     
  5. CMeszt

    CMeszt Member+

    Fire Crown 4 Life (or until they change it again)
    Jan 9, 2004
    Soldier Field Media Deck. First Row.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union

    well seeing as though Convey was kind of a waste of space on the field at times this year... His lack of field time at Reading is hardly a suprise. He made the transfer in a slump.

    Now if the national team can finally get rid of him, and put a real defender in his place... they've been getting along well without him lately.
     
  6. soyinocente

    soyinocente Member

    Nov 26, 2003
    Hold on a minute. Bobby was by many accounts a self centered player with suspect training habits. Perhaps he was not a great influence on the team chemistry - not a cancer like Hristo - but maybe not a good fit into the team approach. It may have taken 10 games, but it is pretty obvious that Gomez for Convey trade has been beneficial. Don't try to kill someone's thread because you don't like the idea. He didn't say "Bobby sucks - good riddance" todda74 asked a legit question.
     
  7. Sanguine

    Sanguine Member

    Jul 4, 2003
    Reston, VA
    why not? It's a perfectly valid thread.

    To say nothing of his play, the team was flat-out lousy for basically his entire stay in DC. Now that he's gone, and we used the money to bring in Gomez, we're a better team. I'm not going to get into an argument about which is the better player, but Gomez is a better fit, and the team is stronger with him in it.

    The Bobby Convey timeline

    1999 - DCU Wins MLS Cup
    2000- Draft Bobby Convey, Miss playoffs
    2001 - Miss Playoffs
    2002 - Miss Playoffs
    2003 - Bobby "leaves" for Spurs, then comes back after WP is denied - Lose in first round of playoffs.
    2004 - Bobby leaves for good - Team in Conference Final and looks to be a legitimate title contender.
     
  8. chayes

    chayes New Member

    Feb 29, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Not until I see Bobby saying, "Thanks, Beautiful" to Kevin Payne's daughter in a TV commercial.
     
  9. Marco10

    Marco10 Member+

    Sep 9, 2002
    Hmmm.... Let's see.
    Pre Bobby Convey,
    84 wins 44 losses regular season, plus 19-4 in the playoffs including 3 MLS Cups.

    The Bobby Convey Era,
    41-65-21 in regular season (including a 6-6-6 record this season before he left, like that isn't a sign!), and 0-2 in the playoffs.

    Post Bobby Convey,
    5-4-3 in regular season, plus 2-0 and counting in the playoffs to date (odds on favorites for the Cup even).

    Seems pretty self explanatory doesn't it? Now maybe if Nomar had been playing since 1919, there would be a comparison.
     
  10. JayRockers!

    JayRockers! Member+

    Aug 4, 2001
    But the premise behind the thread is equating Bobby to Nomar. As far as I can tell, there is no curse that has been keeping DC United from winning the cup since 1918. If the thread was titled "Are We Better Off Without Bobby," I'd have no problem with it, because I've felt that the team has really improved since he's been gone. But to equate something in a city which had nothing to do with DC and a sport which has nothing to do with DC to DC United and their Cup possibilities is ludicrious at best.

    See above. It is not a valid thread to equate Bobby to Nomar to the Redsox to a curse. Nothing to do with soccer or DC United.

    Thx,

    Jay!
     
  11. Sanguine

    Sanguine Member

    Jul 4, 2003
    Reston, VA
    Nomar had nothing to do with the curse, really. The Red Sox couldn't get over the hump last year. This year they got over it without him.

    The Curse had to do with Babe Ruth, not Nomar Garciaparra.
     
  12. JoeW

    JoeW New Member

    Apr 19, 2001
    Northern Virginia, USA
    In a word...."no." Bobby isn't Nomar. The situations are totally different. It's a superficial comparision at best. That's like saying "well, DCU was terrible last year with Marco, now he's gone so Etcheverry must have been a terrible player."

    Convey was having a mediocre season given his talent. If he hadn't left, he'd have still been a force at left outside mid. That would have been too bad for Gros but Convey still would have been one of the better outside mids in MLS. And he'd have fit into Nowak's scheme well with his quickness, first touch ability, aggressiveness.

    The team is playing better since he left, not b/c he left but b/c:
    --the team is starting to get Nowak's system down. That has nothing to do with Convey.
    --the team is getting finishing from Eskandarian. Again, that's not Convey.
    --the team depth is better (a function of some young players like Carroll and Adu becoming individual forces on the field, other people getting healthy like Rimando, and adding other players like Hendrickson).

    As for the comparison of the "Convey Era", that's pretty misleading stats. After all, the team has a better record the past past 10 regular season games with Gomez than career-wise with Marco--but I'd never argue that means Gomez is a better A-mid than MAE. A lot of it comes down to the talent and circumstances you find yourself in. You could just as easily argue "the team lost bady in 2002 with Milton Reyes, now we cut him and we win--Reyes must have been a cancer and a lousy player."

    Bobby wanted to go to England. I'm glad he went--he got his wish and got more money. Who can begrudge him that--he worked hard for this club. We lost some talent when he left. But the mark of Nowak the coach is that he's grown more talent AND his system is bringing out the best of the players he does have.
     
  13. Th4119

    Th4119 Member

    Jul 26, 2001
    Annandale, VA
    Fact is, the team has won a playoff series every single year that Convey hasn't played in the postseason.

    When he's been around to play, they either didn't make it or got slaughtered.

    That means everything, right?

    ;)

    Also, this changes to each team advancing to MLS Cup that didn't have Bobby on board.

    I'm not arguing this point, it's just an interesting side note.
     
  14. todda74

    todda74 New Member

    Nov 4, 2001
    Annapolis
    I didn't start this thread to talk about the Red Sox curse or that Boston hadn't won in 80(?) years and DC only in 5. And I don't think Bobby is a poor player. But, there was an effort earlier this year to make this Bobby's team with the departure of Marco. Kevin Payne even stated that before the season started in mailings to ticket holders.
    And that just didn't seem to work and I think it is a pretty fair statement to say he was preoccupied with trying to sign with a European team. I also don't dislike him either. He is a very good player and I was glad to see him finally get his work permit. But it does seem now that some baggage has been dropped from the team.
    We can all agree that this is Jaime's team now right? If Bobby was still here who would be the more important player?
     
  15. Sanguine

    Sanguine Member

    Jul 4, 2003
    Reston, VA
    --Nowak's system depends on a dangerous central midfielder who can finish like Gomez more than you seem to acknowledge.
    --Esky was finishing before Bobby left.
    --The only new player (who has seen the field) since Bobby left is Gomez. Hendrickson came in before Bobby left. We added Lawson, but he hasn't played. Quaranta came back from injury and played like 10-20 minutes. It's the same team, but it's better now.

    We were at our best last year during the span between Bobby leaving (and coming back only to ride the bench) and Olsen getting hurt. You'd think that injury wouldn't have hurt us that much since Olsen was playing left mid for a month leading up to the injury, but Bobby came in there and the team still fell apart.

    We're at our best this year now that he's gone and we've brought in Gomito and recovered from the plague of injuries that were ongoing when Convey left.

    How many 5-game winning streaks did we go on in the 4 years Bobby was here? How many playoff matches did we win? Heck, how many did we score in?

    Good player or not, the team has shown twice now that it is better off without him, for whatever reason. It doesn't matter if he was a clubhouse cancer or a malcontent or (the most likely reason in my mind) his talents were just not a good fit here. The real DC United is back.
     
  16. Lowecifer

    Lowecifer Member+

    Jan 11, 2000
    Baltimore, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I suppose this thread was inevitable...

    Bobby-floggers have and will come to this thread like flies to dung.

    I don't have any problem with the comparison of Nomar & Bobby's situations, it's something I've thought about, but to start heaping past failures on the shoulders of a player who entered the league at age 15 is utterly absurd. While you're at it, why don't credit the dismissal of Marco Etcheverry with the resurrection of the team's fortunes?

    Link to one of these "accounts"? I would argue that Convey was one of the first players to fully grasp Nowak's system.

    :rolleyes:

    Get your licks in now boys, you won't even have his fading memory to kick around for long.

    Seriously, you guys are completely mental.
     
  17. writered21

    writered21 Member+

    Jul 14, 2001
    Middle of the Road
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    OK, so let's change the direction of the thread a little bit then. ... Would DCU be in the Eastern Conference Final with Bobby Convey on the team and without Christian Gomez? (I'm assuming they wouldn't have both - nothing's an impossibility.)

    My thought is, no, they wouldn't. I think Convey is a fine player. I think there were several other fine players on the club at that time. But I just don't think they mixed very well. After he left, the team struggled, then as Gomez got a bit more fitness, the club started playing much better (not just from his play, I know). In a general sense, I think they are playing better (stylistically and in terms of results) with Gomez playing well in the team than they were when Convey played well in the team. But even then, it's not that simple, other players are playing well - and staying healthier than they have in past years.

    Agreed, it has nothing to do with curses and Nomar and Mia and taking shots of whiskey before Game 6 of the ALCS. It had to do with the fact that the Convey/Gomez moves came with enough time left in the season that United could develop into the type of team that Nowak probably envisioned when the moves were made.
     
  18. JoeW

    JoeW New Member

    Apr 19, 2001
    Northern Virginia, USA
    Sanguine, I think you're engaging in revisionist history here.

    1. Go back and look at the tape of game #1 at RFK against the defending MLS Champion San Jose Quakes. That's as impressive a match as you'll see all year from this team. Our midfield was totally dominant. Convey had an outstanding match (with the requisite poor finishes of course).

    This was not a case of the team played poorly, Bobby left and all of a sudden we were a contender. Instead, the team started strong, then slumped midseason (July and August) than came together again. Part of the reason it slumped is: Bobby was gone. Another reason was: other player absences (Rimando wasn't in form, Nellie was gone, Olsen got hurt, Stewart got hurt, suspensions to guys like Eskandarian and Kovalenko) and we were counting on Quaranta, Quintantilla, Martins to get healthy (none of whom did). We hadn't brought in new talent yet.

    Your point about we only added Gomez and Lawson is disingenuous. At one point, this team had no bodies. We went into Dallas and threw Jason Thompson out there (no practices with the team) and the Royal's defender b/c we were so short on bodies. Adu was starting. Kuffour got serious PT. The personnel has changed significantly from Game 1 to now. Yes, Bobby is gone, Gomez and Lawson are here. But Rimando is now healthy and in-form. Petke is in form. Nellie is here and healthy. We aren't counting on Martins, Quaranta, or Quintanilla. Khuffour has been added. Hendrickson is not only on the team but has played a lot in central defense. Cerritos is gone. Adu is now mostly an A-mid (not a striker) and has gone from being aimless out there to fitting in and being inspired. But just read the player's comments going into the playoffs. Eskandarian talks about how the team is still learning each other and still getting better and better. Nowak talks about how it took a season for the players to learn the system and get it down.

    2. Nowak's system doesn't require a strong A-midfielder. It requires a strong midfield (among other things). We had that early in the season and then lost it. Carroll slumped. Convey left. Dema got some suspensions. People got hurt. Olsen was playing central midfield (the kind of quasi-holding mid role) since the Carolina Cup--it's just that earlier in the season with Convey we did more position switching in the midst of games--b/c a midfield of Stewart, Convey, Kovalenko, Olsen--any of them can play any of those 4 positions--plus Carroll of course.

    3. Yep, Gomez is a great addition. But (and the "what if" game is always problematic), assume Convey had wanted to stay here and hadn't left. We probably wouldn't have had the money to acquire Gomez. And he's a better finisher than Convey. But we'd also have had Bobby during the dog days of July and August when the team looked dreadful. Gomez is one piece of the puzzle.

    I don't put Bobby Convey on a throne and worship him. I wish him all the best overseas and hope (for the USMNT sake and DCU's reputation) he's successful. I cheer on everyone who now wears my club's uniform (even if the're former Metros!). This bashing of Convey is just nonsense.

    DCU started strong b/c of Nowak's tactics, good pressure/work-rate early when teams couldn't handle it, and some talent on the team. But then we slumped b/c we couldn't finish, other teams got stronger (and adjusted to our game), we were missing some key people (callups, suspensions, injuries) and were short bodies. It took time, but we filled those gaps with just the right people (as opposed to a body), people learned the system, the youngsters (Carroll, Adu, Eskandarian) got past their slumps and grew more confident. We're playing the best ball of any team in MLS right now. But to argue that's b/c Convey left is just plain silly.
     
  19. soyinocente

    soyinocente Member

    Nov 26, 2003
    I don't need to link to a message board thread for corroboration. Even if I did, does an internet reference make it true? How about direct comments from the coaching staff (meet the team, golf tournament, etc.)? Whether he got the system and whether he was or was not a great fit in the locker room/field are not mutually exclusive.

    I like Convey and I hope he does well for the Nats & Reading. I just heard more than once at team functions that he was a bit of a primadonna who needed to go to England to get an attitude adjustment. Nothing out of the ordinary for a 20 year old pro athlete, or any 20 year old for that matter.
     
  20. Marco10

    Marco10 Member+

    Sep 9, 2002
    Excellent rationalizations there Joe! Really well done. You sound just like Gibbs supporting Brunell. :)

    Seriously though, it's amazing how differently fans can see the same player. Seems to have become quite the tradition here. I'm just wondering who the next victim will be.

    Thinking back, we've been divided over Arce, Lassiter, Richie, Jaime, Conteh, Marco, Bobby. So who's up for being vivisected next year?

    Quaranta? Jaime again? Freddy? Petke? Rimando? Gomez? Can't wait to see. :)
     
  21. TEConnor

    TEConnor New Member

    Feb 22, 1999
    I said this weekend that it was an interesting coincidence that the fall of DC's luck met with Convey's tenure on the team, and the rise in DC's fortunes came at his departure.

    There's no need to say why, but just to say it has been certainly is interesting. We all can form our own opinions as to why DC really, truly sucked from 2000 to roughly when Bob left these shores. However, I'd say its just a lot of things coincidental.

    One thing that can be said about Bob's stay in DC is that none of the first two season problems can directly be blamed, in any way, on him. It is a sad thing that such a talented young guy played for such a crap team with such crappy luck and results. I think that this greatly impacted Bob's development. As a result, and completely understandably, Bob tried like hell to jump ship. I would have done the same. It IS a shame that his transfer didn't come through originally in 2003. However, I have no doubt that should he have left and Hudson found a replacement, the same results would not have come to fruition as have this year. Fact is, Nowak, Jaime, Gros, and the re-emergence of Olsen are so much an improvement over Hudson, Stoichkov, nobody, and an injured Olsen that you cannot compare the two scenarios.

    End result: interesting coincidence. Tough Luck for Bob. Good Luck for DC.

    Now, let's all go back to being HAPPY ALREADY!!!!!

    If you all want to chat conspiracy and curses, seriously, there are plenty of hyper-panic election blogs to surf out there. The paranoid nuts reign supreme regardless of affiliation. So, lets just keep this here forum to super happy crazy fans of a great team for one week, please!

    Tim
     
  22. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    I nominate Tim Lawson. He hasn't done anything else since arriving. We may as well use him for cannon fodder.

    Sachin
     
  23. BudWiser

    BudWiser New Member

    Jul 17, 2000
    Falls Church, VA
    The team has always been mediocre to poor when Bobby's been on it. Now, whether that's due to Nowak or Hudson or Rongen or Etcheverry the fact that the earth's axis tilts a certain direction or any other conceivable factor (and there are LOTS), this cannot be denied. Is it due to Bobby helping or hurting? Who knows, we could argue about it until the end of the earth.

    We can all come up w/all kinds of reasons-pro, against, excuses, finger-pointing, but THIS FACT CANNOT BE DENIED.
     
  24. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Does this mean that Bobby is banging Lindsay Tarpley?

    :confused:

    :D
     

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