Simple question. We are close to that stage of the season where we won't see an official Dortmund game for a month. Every other top league has 20 teams. Maybe it's because I am English, but I am in full support of the league being expanded. I know in Germany this is still not a popular idea and it probably won't happen. However, what does this forum think? Should the Bundesliga expand to 20 league teams?
All this would do is add two BL2 level teams who choose to roll over against Bayern but play as touch and physical with us as they can without getting sent off. No thanks
I actually agree with both of these points. On the referee point, the club need to seriously complain about this. It's a joke what other clubs have been allowed to do. I mentioned before how a complete neutral I was watching the game with commented on how dirty Hoffenheim were. She didn't even know which two teams were involved, but was shocked how dirty one team was. She watches the big matches in the Premier League, but actually made a point of saying "German teams are much more dirty than English ones." This needs to be stopped. Yeh I also agree lots of teams just lay down and lose for Bayern. I look at Chelsea and every team is fighting so hard to stop their unbeaten run. However, increasing the number of teams would mean more matches for fans to watch. It seems the German fans don't want this, which is the deciding factor and unless they change the mind then the league should not be expanded. An expanded league would also bring more revenue to the clubs, allow more matches to be on TV and extend the season. It's the middle of December and there's no chance of catching Bayern. It would also allow more teams to grow.
Germany has the largest population in Europe, so why is the league smaller in numbers then all the other major countries? Surely there are enough football fans around Germany for their to be enough big clubs?
It comes down to money. TV money will decline because it would have to be shared by 2 additional teams. Of course one can argue that more matches = more money for the broadcaster but the broadcaster doesn't always see it that way. They can't just get more subscribers because there will be a few more matches. And the money they get out of advertisers won't move the needle much either. Then there is sponsorship revenue. By playing a few additional matches against 2 2. BL teams we aren't going to make much money either from any goddamn sponsor. Doesn't matter if they are in Germany or not. There's also another huge counter argument. The season would get bulkier which means we will have less time to spend in China/Japan/Indonesia/USA etc. We make more money on those trips playing friendlies, signing autographs and learning a bit of Mandarin than by playing 2 additional BL games with 2. BL opposition. And let's not forget that our squad is super prone to injury. I am glad they get the rest they already do. England can actually benefit from having 2 fewer teams and one less domestic cup. I have always been against the Pokal. It's a stupid competition just so some club other than Bayern or BVB can win it.
Money this will be solid net positive. The TV money is often calculated (while bidding) by the rights holder as a per game thing. It would increase pretty solidly if games are increased. Also the match day incomes would increase. There are enough decent quality teams - 2 teams from BL2 will get established with the TV money. I would like to see a big club like Hamburg stay (not making an excuse for their incompetent management). In short Yes. But where do they fit in the extra games? It will be 4 extra games for a team. Maybe the could start the season 1 or 2 weeks early ( I think the transfer windows are way too long anyways & transfers should be done early) but that could eat up resting & pre-season time. Or you could try to squeeze it with some Tuesday/Wednesday matches on non CHL weeks. That could be done too. I think on the long term to establish the BL as a brand this is a big step & should be done. 20 looks a decent number. But under no case, should it be done at the expense of the Winter Break (which is vital). And these long term decisions aren't taken keeping in mind a Dortmund or Bayern tour of China which low end clubs couldn't but looking at the future of the league & how to expand the pie.
This is all complete non-sense. This has been explored by the BL, Serie A and floated around in La Liga as well. Add 2 additional teams and the following year every single team earns a bit less. BL clubs make a pittance when it comes to MD revenue. The 2 additional games certainly increase the likelihood of more wear and tear on players. No there aren't. If you think the likes of Werder, Kaiserslautern and Stuttgart are decent quality you haven't seen them play. In short Yes. But where do they fit in the extra games? It will be 4 extra games for a team. Maybe the could start the season 1 or 2 weeks early ( I think the transfer windows are way too long anyways & transfers should be done early) but that could eat up resting & pre-season time. Or you could try to squeeze it with some Tuesday/Wednesday matches on non CHL weeks. That could be done too. I think on the long term to establish the BL as a brand this is a big step & should be done. 20 looks a decent number. But under no case, should it be done at the expense of the Winter Break (which is vital). And these long term decisions aren't taken keeping in mind a Dortmund or Bayern tour of China which low end clubs couldn't but looking at the future of the league & how to expand the pie.[/QUOTE] In short no. Having 2 additional teams does not increase the brand of the BL. Your own club have and will deep six the idea off the table. Bayern are against the following: having 20 teams, collective TV rights, video replay (naturally). You know they are strongly for a European super league.
No thanks. Serie A expanded to 20 teams in 2004 and a decade on, club officials are saying that it needs to go back to an 18 team format. Why? Four more league games means the poorer clubs need extra players to compete with the deeper squads that richer clubs can afford. The clubs playing in Europe perform worse as a result of four extra league games and the coefficient suffers. The national team will get less time to meet and train which is another one of Serie A's complaints. Fixture congestion means players will get injured more with the league's high octane playing style. The Bundesliga winter break is a cultural perk. The players rest, the coaches address tactical shortcomings at a training camp and the team gets a month to rejig and play better football, which is what fans want to see. If footballers want to play through the festive break and be paid the top dollar for it, they should head for the Premier League. The Bundesliga will not pay as well even with four extra games.
Serie A has a lot of problems not related to the number of teams. After the number of teams went up they went on to win 2 CL titles and the world cup. The problem is that their giant clubs relied on funding from billionaires and did not improve their infrastructure. This is rubbish. The English league has even more games than Serie A or the La Liga. The smaller teams have no problem fielding the same team over and over again. Crystal Palace had a fantastic season doing just that. Chelsea in the year they won the league rarely changed the team as did Leicester last year and Chelsea are this year. Mourinho is well known for sticking to the same line up. German teams do terrible in the Europa League and under perform. La Liga teams on the other hand dominate the Europa League. Nonsense. Spain have dominated the world with 20 teams and Italy won the world cup and got to the finals of the Euros. It's a cheap excuse. Again not really true, because look at the injury problems Bayern, Leverkusen, Schalke and Dortmund regularly face. The lack of 20 teams keeps the status quo. It's no coincidence that the well run clubs like Mainz are for an expansion, but the top teams are unhappy about this. In reality the expansion of the league would make upsets more likely and cause the top clubs to drop more points due to having to rotate more. The lower league teams actually wouldn't have a problem and would take more points off the top. In the long run this would lead to a greater interest in the league. The top clubs however, in Germany only care about their own success and no worse than Bayern, but Dortmund play their part. The pact between Gladbach and Dortmund to destroy Leipzig is an example of this.
Yes according to the reports. There is a lack of ambition from many clubs. Hamburg had a budget twice that of most Bundesliga teams, but only celebrate surviving relegation Stuttgart with the city, the income and two fantastic young players got relegated.
Which report is this? Collusion between clubs is highly illegal. People can be looking at prison time if found guilty.
Collusion between clubs happens all the time. I can't find the article so I will retract that statement.
An emphatic No - with one exception 1) quality of these extra games would be poor 2) increased risk of injury-BVB 3) increased risk of injury-German national team The only exception for me would be if FIFA reduced international matches and/or other club matches as an offset
Before you rubbish everything without well-reasoned discussion or arguments, have you considered the differences between the leagues? EPL and BL: Television revenue, matchday revenue, ownership and billionaire investors means there is a gulf in the comparison between the squad a small Bundesliga club can afford and the squad that a small Premier League club can afford. Chelsea, Leicester, even Bournemouth is billionaire-backed and foreign owned. All 20 Premier League clubs charge extortionate prices for matchday tickets compared to what the Bundesliga charges. Darmstadt and Ingolstadt's records buys cost €3million. Burnley's record signing is Defour for £7.35 million. Bournemouth's record is double that and we all know the real difference is in wage budget. La Liga v the rest: They win on superior technique. La Liga dominates despite the fact that it is a 20 team league, not because it is has 20 teams. Even the poorest debtridden clubs have academies that focus heavily on promoting technically proficient players over physical specimens. Germany has tried to copy Spain'sacademy model by forcing teams to spend a percentage income on academies with a strong technical focus using DFB statutes since the early 2000s. Spain's entire league and national team's playstyle is influenced by the focus on the technical rather than physical build. Look at Bartra, weak in the air and not a tough tackler but he plays for Spain. Tiki taka played defensively is keepball. Spain's players leverage their technical superiority to pass and keep possession as long as possible so they do not have to beat bigger sized teams in physical duels. Spain's strategy has been worked out in recent years by teams that cede possession, press and are deadly quick on the counter. Bundesliga: You say Bayern, Leverkusen, Schalke and Dortmund already suffer many injuries. It is because of the extra European fixtures. I don't see how four more games help, unless you mean it helps the top clubs that the entire league will suffer more injuries. Games would be lower in quality. Meh. Dortmund has enough trouble with injuries and rotation under Klopp and Tuchel, we will have poorer results in Europe, the BL or both. So no thanks. Watching Premier League upsets and hearing the players moan about fatigue and injuries while I am snuggled up warm on Boxing Day and NYE is how I like it.
Why would the quality of these extra games be poor? Not to mention fans love their teams and want to see extra games. It's a myth that adding just 2 teams will suddenly dilute the quality of the league. In fact with more teams have access to greater wealth it will lead to more the standard of the league rising not declining. This is true to a certain extent, but only if the managers refuse to rest players. Managers like Mourinho and Guardiola rarely have injuries. Guardiola only having an injury crisis at Bayern. Players will have to be rotated, which is what the top teams should be able to do. Let's just see about that. Last few tournaments Reus, Gundogan, Lars Bender, Sven Bender etc are just some of the players that have been injured. Where as England and Belgium have missed virtually no top players. The truth is that the top clubs in the Bundesliga can be expected to play 50+ games. So they need the squad to rotate anyway. Dortmund played 56 games last year, where as an average Bundesliga team might play 36. That's a difference of 20 games. 4 extra games for the average Bundesliga team does not mean they need a bigger squad. Those players can play them. What it does mean is that the tops teams will have to field their second team more often. Here's a damning statistic. The 5 biggest points totals in the Bundesliga have all come in the last 6 years. Before Dortmund broke the 80 mark barrier it had never been done before. Now Bayern in 5/6 six seasons it has been broken. The gap between the top teams in the Bundesliga and the lower teams is bigger than it has ever been before. Bayern have never cared about the Bundesliga and are only out for themselves, hence why they want a European Super League. The other top clubs are similarly selfish. In reality expanding the league makes it more competitive, because the top teams have to use their second strings more often. It does not effect them in Europe, because any manager worth his salt rests players in the league for the CL campaign. Germany is a big country and already produces more top quality footballers than Spain.
The German NT has suffered more from injuries in recent tournaments then either Spain or England. If the majority of people are happy with less games then I can't see anything changing though, having lived in both England and Germany I've experienced both ways of doing things, and can see either side of the argument. For football fanatics, having a busy football schedule during the Christmas holidays is great, especially come Boxing Day/2. Weihnachtstag when you've had enough of your families company At the same time, I think a winter break is imperative, and will be introduced in England soon, during January.
It's because you have not researched what you are saying. [QUOTE] EPL and BL: Television revenue, matchday revenue, ownership and billionaire investors means there is a gulf in the comparison between the squad a small Bundesliga club can afford and the squad that a small Premier League club can afford. Chelsea, Leicester, even Bournemouth is billionaire-backed and foreign owned. All 20 Premier League clubs charge extortionate prices for matchday tickets compared to what the Bundesliga charges. Darmstadt and Ingolstadt's records buys cost €3million. Burnley's record signing is Defour for £7.35 million. Bournemouth's record is double that and we all know the real difference is in wage budget.[/QUOTE] What has this got to do with the size of the squad? Managers like Pulis, Mourinho, Conte and Dyche make no changes. They play virtually the same team week in week out. What has money got to do with anything? The Premier League teams make more money, but they also have to deal with the Premier League inflation. Players have to be paid more and English players come at a premium. Where as Bundesliga team can pick up a future world class striker like Werner for under 10 million euros, the equivalent Premier League player would cost over £30 million. So when it comes to purchasing players Burnley don't have much of advantage of Darmstadt in absolute terms. The lower teams in the Premier League are also mostly British based. People exaggerate the number of foreign players, because a Irish, Scottish and Welsh players don't count as eligible for national team. Take Crystal Palace: Hennesey, Ward, Kelly, Danns, Delaney, Puncheon, Zaha, Ledley, Macarthur are all players from the British Isles and part of the 11. Only Cabaye and Benteke are foreign. 4 extra games will make no difference to the Bundesliga teams outside of Europe. They end up playing in money spinning friendlies in the winter break half the time anyway. No way should the Bundesliga clubs copy the Premier League in exploiting the fans, but these are professional athletes. It's a joke to suggest 4 extra games will kill them. Bartra has been poor for Spain and really does not play for them when it matters. When Spain won they had the tough tackling Puyol and Ramos playing at the back. In La Liga there are more tackles per game than the Premier Leauge. Not to mention for a while now Germany have produced better quality players than Spain and proof it by doing better than them internationally. Not only do Germany have a wealth of players choosing to play for the national team they are also providing several players for the rest of world like Kampl, Matip, Choupa Moting, Fabian Johnson, Kevin Prince Boateng, Kolasinac, Sahin etc There's more than one playing style in Spain. I suggest you actually watch Atletico or the Basque teams. Why not even actually watch Madrid. Madrid are one of the most physical teams in the world with the likes of Ramos, Pepe, Casmiero, Bale, Ronaldo and Benzema all in the first 11. 4 games won't hurt the smaller teams and it's obvious that there are problems with these clubs fitness regimes. There is no way that these clubs should have more injuries than City, Chelsea, Tottenham, Barcelona, Madrid etc than usually play more games. Tottenham play an equally intensive pressing style as Leverkusen, but don' get anywhere near as many injuries. Instead of making excuses they should try and improve the fitness. This is the selfish and short sighted attitude that holds back the Bundesliga. The growth of the league and the growth of competition is only good for Dortmund. There's a reason why all the historic clubs bar Bayern are run so badly in the Bundesliga. http://www.thenational.ae/sport/bun...money-to-help-deal-with-epls-transfer-tsunami Then the CEO's whine about the Premier League leaving them behind. Bayern would happily leave the Bundesliga if they could. Exactly you are WATCHING the Premier League, increasing the revenue of the club, enjoying it's football and then will speak about it. It seems the top Bundesliga clubs want their cake and to eat it too. They want to make Premier League money, but cannot be bothered to play a few more games. They are not prepared to risks their spot on top of German football. Due to this, look how Schalke, Stuttgart and Hamburg are faring now. Don't complain when Weigl, Auba, Raphael and Pulisic to name a few ask to make the switch to the Premier League or La Liga. Maybe you can tell them how they will be so much more tired or at risk of injury. Or maybe you can say it will hurt their chances of winning in Europe despite only 1 Bundesliga CL victory in 10 years . How Spain, Italy and England have suffered. Wait the German clubs must have had great success in the Europea League right? Oh no they have 0 wins in that too. It's a shame that Spain are just so tired they can't play in Euope.
I agree a winter break is important and it will be introduced in England probably between January 6-January January 20th.
Nobody in Germany expects the Bundesliga to match the EPL television cash bonanza. Compare the amount of English language news and social media coverage generated by the EPL and BL. The universality of the English language in big foreign markets like the US means EPL will always be #1 ahead of the BL for most American soccer fans if they are forced to choose between 2 games broadcast at the same time. Likewise I only watch the EPL when there is no Bundesliga match ongoing, and I already lack the time to watch many Bundesliga games. Changing Bundesliga game times to avoid clashing with EPL matches will work better than four extra games, but this is a change Germany's matchgoing fans will resist. La Liga and Serie A do this, to the detriment of their stadium atmospheres. The enduring global popularity of British culture and legendary Premier League brands like Man United, Arsenal and Liverpool who have built up fan loyalty in foreign markets and former British colonies over decades cannot be matched by Bayern playing 4 extra games against popular second division clubs like Stuttgart, St Pauli or Kaiserslautern. Liverpool has rich fanclubs all around the world who started following them in the 1970s. Dortmund cannot match that overnight by adding four more BL fixtures, but if we (and other German clubs and the German national team) play well in Europe for 15 to 20 years, we will build a strong global brand. Bundesliga clubs earn less revenue from their television contracts than Italy, Spain and England in return for greater autonomy and a club membership that ensures better fan experiences. The Bundesliga knows where it stands, in fact every club hopes to sell players to the Premier League for extortionate prices because other Bundesliga clubs will not pay stupid money. Man City paid about £100 million for Sané and De Bruyne. Schalke, Augsburg, Leverkusen, Wolfsburg have benefited from the trickle down effect. The problem is whether the money from the EPL is reinvested wisely, or used to buy Schuerrle for €30million.
Your post outlines the big problem with Bundesliga teams; they lack ambition. Then they constantly make excuses for why other leagues are better. There are many things wrong with the English league and the biggest one is the way they fleece match day going going fans. The Bundesliga should never adopt this. Another problem with the Premier League is that so much money is involved, that clubs are too scared to play youngsters. Necessity is the mother of invention and I believe the poorer Bundesliga clubs being forced to play youngsters has been good for the league. The match going experience is fantastic and the Bundesliga still allows fans of all economic brackets to attend games, which is brilliant. The infrastructure and the youth coaching in Bundesliga leaves England in shame. These are things I want the Premier League and the English game to adapt. Now that said, the growth of the Premier League is not solely down to the language. It's true the British Empire, the American dominance of the world and English being the global language greatly helps the Premier League. However, this factor is somewhat exaggerated. La Liga's growth in the Far East, Central Europe, Africa and even in England itself is an example of this. In the end people will want to watch the best product and see the best players in the world. I've also spoken before that in the early to mid 90s Serie A was bigger than the Premier Leaue even in England. People would rather watch Juventus vs AC Milan than a top Premier League. If Serie A had the innovation and foresight of the Premier League then they would be the number one league across the world. Instead they let their global market slip. If the Bundesliga gives the world a competitive league with 3 or more team regularly reaching the quarters and beyond of the CL then people will watch it. Increasing the league to 20 is not just 4 extra matches, it's 4 extra game weeks, which means say 10 extra matches to be shown on two weekends and another 4 matches shown midweek. Bayern fans will definitely turn up to watch Bayern. It's not like they don't turn up now to watch Bayern win 8-0 against Werder Bremen or Hamburg. It's not like Dortmund fans were booing when the team were beating Warsaw and leaving early. As a Crystal Palace fan I can speak for what it would be like being a St Pauli fan. The matches against the big clubs like Bayern would be fantastic. You get to go and watch Muller, Lewandowsi, Robben etc come to your ground. You don't expect to win, but it's a must watch game, because you get to watch world class players play against your team. The matches against teams on your level are a must watch, because those are the games you hope to win. The case for injuries is also blown out of proportion. Every top club has their red zone, when a player is close to injury and needs to be rested. Now with the expansion to 38 league games this will happen more often and the top clubs will have to rest players. This will lead to more shocks and upsets. The Darmstadt fan knows that they now have a shot against Dortmund, because Dortmund have a CL quarter final against Chelsea midweek. Reus and Gotze might not play. Sure Dembele and Auba are playing, but it evens the odds. The neutral loves this, because they get a chance to see an upset. All this increases money, viewers and interest in the Bundesliga. Now the top clubs like Bayern and Dortmund are against this, because they don't want to have to rest their top stars more often and make the league more competitive. They want to keep breaking all records. As I showed earlier the winners of the Bundesliga are dropping fewer points than ever before. An expansion means the usual top teams won't be able to guarantee that they will always be in the European or CL places. This is ultimately why they are against it and they use excuses to defend their decisions. Bringing up rubbish like they are worried about players, when instead of having a proper preseason they prostitute the players out to China and the USA, which does far more damage. Yes the Bundesliga knows where it stands. It will die unless something is done and Bayern are aware of this. It's why they are so keen on jumping ship. If the Bundesliga's current future looked so rosey then why do Bayern push strongest for a European super league? The majority of Premier League clubs are run significantly better than the Bundesliga ones. The Premier League realised early on that the growth of all the Premier League clubs is the growth of Spain. http://www.espnfc.com/spanish-prime...al-madrid-suspend-european-super-league-talks "For the time being, Barcelona and Real Madrid have given us an amnesty as far as the European Super League is concerned. For La Liga to grow, we have to grow together and both clubs have told us they are now aligned with us in a more united approach."-Adolfo Bara.
I think It will hurt the league as Bayern can put up a second team and still roll over most BL teams while we still can't (specially with injuries) so while it may increase the revenue (don't know if by a lot) I think it wouldn't change the status quo in the league. I don't think it has in the EPL.
Different league, different problems than Germany. I don't know enough about the Italian league at the moment, but their economy is doing poorly, fans don't attend matches, their are not several huge clubs in Serie B etc.