MLS, NHL, and NBA are all on the up and up. NBA seems to be the most volatile, but have a big enough lead to be safe for now from the MLS. NFL is steady, nothing to see there. MLB is drastically declining in popularity. If there was a league for the MLS to catch it's the MLB. TV ratings are awful for baseball among viewers under 65.
Baseball isn't as dominant as it used to be, sure. But 73 million tickets sold? Yeah, MLB isn't going anywhere in our lifetimes.
In terms of popularity, I don't think soccer overtook the fourth largest sport in the United States, let alone the other three major sports. Personally, I just don't think the United States will ever have an "elite" soccer league -- that is, I don't think the US will ever have a soccer league that can compete with the likes of the NFL in terms of popularity and revenue. It's just the way it is, and there are many countries around the World that happen to be the same. In Asia, Japan and South Korea are perfect examples of countries where soccer continuously failed to become the number one sport, in spite of these two countries' great amount of success in Asian club and national team competitions. Baseball continues to be the number one sport in both countries, despite many decades of glorious history and success that these two countries experienced with their national soccer teams. Some countries simply aren't meant to "seriously" embrace this game. Australia, Canada and even Ireland do not view soccer in the same fashion as countries of mainland Europe, Latin America and the Middle East. The MLS can brag about having higher average attendances than the NBA and NHL, but they're basically bragging about attracting more fans than an indoor sports league. Well of course they're going to have a larger average attendance! I bet the NASL of the 1980s also had higher average attendances than the NBA and NHL, but look how that turned out. The fact the organizers of MLS are comparing themselves to indoor sports leagues isn't something for them to be happy about. Furthermore, there are fears that the MLS have already reached their peak attendance records as this season's current average attendance has declined. That's another thing about the United States: it's a country where numbers fluctuate dramatically. In the grand scheme of things, the MLS's big year might mean absolutely nothing. As a non-American, I do not view MLS as a big league. I don't think it'll ever be more important than the four major North American sports leagues. The thing about the NBA is, it's the best basketball league in the World. Not only does it have followers in North America, but it also has hundreds of millions of followers Worldwide. I wouldn't waste a single minute of my life watching the New England Revolution play like a second division Kuwaiti team with a budget of a few thousand bucks, but I can spend days to weeks following up with all the news of not only the Boston Celtics but college basketball too. Speaking of the NCAA, college basketball and football are more popular than pro soccer in the US. The fact is, US basketball makes more money than US soccer. US basketball is also a leading example in the World, whereas US soccer can barely be watched by local soccer fans, let alone soccer fans of other countries. The same thing applies to hockey. The NHL is the greatest hockey league in the World. Every non-American female/male fan of hockey knows about the Stanley Cup finals, but hardly any non-American soccer fan cares to know how many teams there are in the MLS. Therefore, I don't think the MLS can beat the fourth largest US sports league, let alone the other three major leagues. A good average attendance record for one season means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. What matters is the commitment, financial return and level of quality that you get from the league. The MLS is not a money-maker. It's not a sports league that most Americans, let alone non-Americans, care about. Neither can the MLS generate as much revenue as the NBA or NHL. I think soccer has room for growth and improvement, but I don't think US soccer will ever become some kind of example to follow, therefore it will never attract foreign interest, which means the league will ultimately lag behind its competitors in the local market as well. Basketball, on the other hand, is America's cultural access to the rest of the World. In spite of supposedly falling behind the MLS in average attendances, the NBA guides FIBA, which makes the league a million times more influential than the MLS will ever be in the soccer "universe". Furthermore, basketball's gain in the rest of the World is America's gain, since America is the role model of basketball leagues in the same way England is the role model of soccer leagues. For that reason alone, the United States will never allow basketball, hockey or any of their other American-made sports to decline. From a cultural, economic and even geopolitical point of view, it will be strategically foolish for them to do so.
It doesn't have too. The NHL revenues match the EPL revenues. All that any soccer league in the US has to do, is catch 4th place. Yet both of those leagues are significantly more ... well, significant in their countries than the MLS is here. That's kind of the point. The difference is the number of people and resources we have here. There's no reason for the sport to not eventually be "big" on the domestic league level. I doubt it did, the highest ever average for the NASL was 14.5 K ... and the NBA and NHL or just basically indoor sports leagues ? K. They're comparing themselves to established sports leagues with clubs that have decades of history and are embedded in the psyche of their communities and this country. The "fear" of the league reaching its attendance peak is nothing more than people like you on forums like this making retarded statements like that. See, that's just it ... you're not an American. Your interest (or non-interest) honestly means squat all. I'm not saying that to be an ass, but it's just how it is. Our big 4 sports have grown to be in the top 7 sporting leagues in the world in terms of revenues and they've all done it with a majority domestic audience. There are enough people and there is enough money in this country that your take on it really won't ever weigh in at a significant level. That's just the way it is. People like Theirry Henry, David Beckham, Robbie Keane etc on down the line DO see it as a significant enough league ... THAT is all that matters. and ? Those teams abound in every soccer playing country in the world. Hell, sometimes one makes it into the EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A, etc .... Um, do you honestly think we're not aware of this ? WE SAY THIS TO MOST PEOPLE. US Soccer can barely be watched by local soccer fans ? What ? Oh right, this is where you're non-American self somehow knows what the blue shit he's talking about in terms of American soccer .... yeah this is always one of the best parts. Even if you live hear, you're oblivious. US Soccer is quite popular. You're seriously going to talk about the commitment ? Financial return ? .... what ? Please, do tell me about the financial return of soccer clubs around the world and how those big revenue numbers are bringing in profits. I'll wait. Who cares about what non-Americans think of the MLS ? It's a league for America. Not non-America. Why is that hard for you ? The MLS isn't even 20 years old yet guy. What's the age on the NBA and NHL again ? Again, who the shit gives a rats ass about foreign interest ? I mean unless you're not counting the buy in for NYCFC by those guys that own that one blue team from Manchester, I think it is ? This league is already rapidly gaining on Liga MX, is signing the players that Liga MX and the South American leagues used to sign and the Euro Leagues used to pilfer. I mean if only we had an in his prime guy from a squad in the middle of it's Champion's League campaign sign with the league, you'd maybe think for a second about what you're saying and maybe actually take a few seconds to see what is really going on ... If only right ? Oh, Obafemi Martins said to say "hi" ... not sure what that's about. The MLS already drives the USSF ... and it's nothing according to you. England is the role model for soccer leagues ? Eh, Germany would disagree. In short. You don't quite get it and don't really know what's actually going on here.
Which I don't think Major League Soccer ever will, unless it's ready to attract interest from abroad -- a fact that you've arrogantly shrugged off in the rest of your post. That's because there are no other sports to compete with. In Japan and South Korea, it's baseball and then everything else, so it's not that hard for soccer to take second position and rust there. With that, you need the help of the global market, which Major League Soccer will never have unless it stops seeing itself as a league for Australians or Frenchmen who are nearing their retirement. My point was it meant nothing in the grand scheme of things. America is the holy grail of statistics. You can use any number to prove or disprove any point you like. It's just the way it is, but it means nothing in terms of a league's importance or prospect. I don't fear the MLS's demise. I'm just pointing out what others have written about. There's no reason for you to hurl insults. I think the MLS are making a mistake by comparing their average attendances to those of indoor sports leagues. If they're satisfied with that, which seems to be the case, then they're never going to be as big as some hope they will. Not quite. The NFL might have grown to become the most popular league in the World because of mainly local factors, but the MLB, NBA and NHL rely heavily on foreign markets. That is especially true of the NBA, which tries to compensate its attendance limitations (due to being an indoor sport) with as much foreign interest as it could possibly find. So, no, your point is invalid. In order for the MLS to beat any of the big four US sports leagues, it needs to have a significant global audience. So you might think non-Americans are squat, but that is perhaps down to your emotional state at the moment. Be reasonable. Even the Premier League depends on the global market to be where it is today. The players you just named are about as useful to your league as Raul is to the Qatar Stars League. Hopefully you get the idea. You didn't get my point. The standard of soccer in the MLS is terrible, absolutely terrible. And unless that changes, don't expect your league to skyrocket past other US leagues that have better talent pools for their respective sports. To think otherwise would be an insult to your own country. Okay, barely watched by most Americans I know. Enlighten me, are most Americans interested in the MLS? And it's a she, by the way. LOL. Firstly, your statement about the age of the MLS is irrelevant and pointless. If being an older league is such an important factor, then why are we even discussing the possibility of the MLS overtaking any of the other US sports leagues? Secondly, can you be any more chauvinistic? Am I not allowed to post a comment here because I'm not an American? Yes, financial return. How much money is the MLS making per year? The MLS is nowhere near as lucrative as the other US sports leagues. And for the sake of US soccer, I sure hope those running the MLS aren't as isolationist as you are in their thinking, otherwise the league would never achieve the status some are hoping for it. Until the MLS can find a way to generate a lot of revenue, the US media will never fully embrace the sport and the league will never gain an exemplary status in the US sports arena. Oh it's funny you mentioned New York City Football Club. What do you think that's all about? If there's one good move the MLS made in the past couple of years, it's the move for allowing a Premier League club (Manchester City) to establish a branch in the United States. That should hopefully be the beginning of much more foreign investment into the league. Play it down as much as you wish, but if the MLS doesn't embrace globalization, it will never break into the big four dominance. The MLB, NBA, NFL and NHL have all done their part in establishing a strong foothold in the global market. Until the MLS moves away from becoming a backwater soccer league that attracts the flops or near-retirees of Europe, it will never be able to overcome the best basketball and hockey league that the World has to offer. It's all about the quality, which is where the MLS is still lacking. And I do put an effort to watch MLS games, by the way. Just the other night, I was watching the second half of San Jose Earthquakes versus Real Salt Lake, and the funniest moment of the game was when one of the San Jose forwards had a golden opportunity to pass the ball to an onside striker standing in the other side of the field, which would've created a one-on-one goal-scoring opportunity for the Earthquakes to double their lead. What does the forward do, you ask? He turns 180 degrees around and runs back to the halfway line, to the discontent of the fans. If that had happened in Italy, people would've suspected foul play. But because it happened in the MLS, everyone shrugged it off because they knew what kind of quality (or lack thereof) the league has. Did you just compare the influence the NBA has on FIBA to the influence the MLS has on the USSF? FIBA is the World governing body of basketball. Big difference. The NBA influenced FIBA to change their rules and make them comply with NBA rules. That's how influential the NBA is in basketball. Now ask yourself, do you think the US will ever allow its most prized sporting asset go down for the sake of the MLS? The big four sports leagues are the holy grail of America's entertainment and sporting industry. There's no way your country will allow the MLS to take any of these leagues' places. The NFL has a huge global outreach today, and no domestic or foreign league could topple its financial dominance. The NBA is America's greatest cultural outreach to the rest of the World. With the NBA, the US has a great cultural influence on so many countries. It's why the NBA generates so much money even while being disadvantaged by the fact it represents an indoor sport with limited seating capacities. Unfortunately, there's another thing you're not taking into consideration. The MLS is disadvantaged by the fact that the laws of soccer make the game very continuous. Soccer is a nonstop game, which is great for people like you and me, I'm sure. But it's not great for American television, is it? While the NBA and NFL can generate so much money from commercials that are aired during the abundant number of intervals and timeouts, the MLS simply doesn't have this leeway. Money means everything these days, especially to the corporate media. With regard to Germany, I have a lot of admiration and respect for the German league. Having said that, the Premier League is the model that most leagues around the World try to emulate. It is the role model, with its highs and lows.
agree with what HailtotheKing said. It's about revenues not jumping other American sports. The country is big enough to handle lots of sports. Although, jumping the NHL would be a feather in the cap for the sport in the country. More importantly i think its about culture. The question should be this: when does soccer become part of the American identity the way baseball, football, and basketball are? And I think it will happen eventually. With globalization, the changing ethnic demographics, the rising popularity of the national team, i think its only a matter of time.
It's not arrogant. I was merely pointing out the horse ... because you're putting the cart before it. It's not quite rusting though ... Obafemi Martins, Diego Valerie, Mauro Diaz, Alex Lopez, Gabriel Torres, Matias Laba, Juan Anangono, Claudio Bieler .... that Dempsey guy. Really, you're stuck in an old way of thinking about who is coming to the league. Sure, we're still going to pop a name here and there ... but the actual bulk of talent being signed is quite different than you're dated take. How many people attend the matches means nothing in terms of the league's importance or prospects ? France feels better now. And the majority of these "others" that have written about it are either foreigners, or desk jockies over here that don't actually follow the game. You're missing the point. The league is getting as many or more people to its matches as a couple of sports that are vastly more popular in this country. You're stuck on this indoor thing. Again, I point to France ... how huge is the sport there ? How huge are their stadiums ? The MLS draws more than Ligue 1. That better ? Erm, TODAY those three have a pretty good global reach, but that's not how they got where they are. I mean, it was totally the foreign market that saved them all from the lockouts and strikes the last 25 years yeah ? It's all that tv money pouring in from international rights yeah ? Oh wait, no: "Estimates put baseball’s overall international operation, which includes television deals in 75 countries, in excess of $100 million annually. Not bad, but still under 5% of all revenue (estimated by Forbes at $4.3 billion), leaving plenty of room for growth." ^ that was in 2005, right before the first WBC. Has it changed a bit to date ? Sure, but the point remains about how the MLB got to where it is. Sure as shit not from the international audience. In 2010 the NHL had a whopping 20m in foreign revenue ... In 2010 the NBA’s international business generated a high-single-digit percentage of the league’s $4.3 billion total revenue. ... you were saying ? I guess "heavily" means two different things to you and I. Except that you're completely wrong ... but ok. This is the perfect example of you simply not knowing what has and is going on here. Terrible relative to what ? I can name MANY more leagues that have a worse standard of play than a better one. Actually, when referring to a non-specific ... "he" is the correct term. I wasn't speaking about anyone in particular, but rather people in general. Grammar and such. LOL totally history has no bearing on significance. I mean, the fact that there's over a century of history for European clubs/leagues has absolutely nothing to do with anything yeah ? ... just wow. You can post all you want ... but when you're talking about an American league that plays here in America ... the "foreign opinion" is waaaaaaayyy down the line of things that matter. I mean really, it's like me going into a Premier League forum and doing what you're doing. How do you think that's going to go ? Oh hi cart ... I see you've forgotten the horse again. How much money does the EPL make per year ? I mean, profit. I asked that earlier and you ignored it for some reason. It's not isolationist ... it's common sense. If the majority of America hasn't jumped in on the fun, what does it matter what others think ? You grow outward, not inward. There's nothing wrong with the sport being embraced here ... it's just the league in particular. I know exactly what it's about .... do you ? You're completely missing the point, and I've stated it more than once. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO. The MLS can always lag behind the big 4 and still be a huge league. If the MLS reached just 1/4 of the NHL's revenue (so about 500m) then it would be the highest revenue league in the world outside of the "big 5" euro leagues. Full stop. Do you grasp that ? That has been in the last decade. All of those leagues got to their heights with minimal foreign revenue, investment, etc. Until you update yourself on this league, it's going to be pretty hard to have a discussion with you. Right, because I can't point to shining examples of "quality" like this in the rest of the soccer world. I mean every club/match/league outside of the US is just on point with everything yeah ? I also call bullshit seeing as how RSL/SJ haven't played since June 1. No, you swung and missed. The point, is that you feel the league is irrelevant, insignificant, and just shit all around. Despite that though, they've managed to somehow be in a position (through smart business) to essentially be in control of the USSF. Just imagine if they tried eh ? The fact that they all have 30-90 years head start means nothing of course. As I've pointed out, they don't have to. The MLS doesn't have to leapfrog a single one in order to be really freaking big. The NFL's global outreach is squat compared to the other three leagues. LOL, you have no idea where the money comes from. I suggest you pay attention to an EPL broadcast on NBCSN .... the "lack" of advertising time is highly overstated. I'd say the captive audience is the better one to advertise to. Sepp Blatter disagrees.
It was definitely arrogance, to the extent that it made you contradict yourself without even realizing it. You said all the MLS needs to do, in terms of revenue, is catch up with the NHL, since that's also where the EPL's finances stand. But what you don't realize is the EPL is the best soccer league in the World and second to none in generating revenue. The MLS cannot reach that level without improving its own soccer standards, for one thing, and that cant happen without the league expanding itself into the global market. It's that simple but, according to you, the Americans who run local soccer can do it all by themselves. I guess that's why the MLS decided to follow FIFA rules after seven seasons of utter failure. The soccer leagues in Japan and South Korea stale in comparison to their compatriot baseball leagues. Ask any Japanese/South Korean person you know and s/he will tell you how big the gap is between these two sports. Soccer's position as the "second sport" is no bragging right, since the two aforementioned countries are mainly one-sport nations. Apart from Clint Dempsey and Obafemi Martins, I couldn't recognize any of the other names. Clint Dempsey is an American and nearing retirement, so it's no surprise he went back to the MLS. Obafemi Martins, on the other hand, was inconsistent at Newcastle and a disaster at Wolfsburg. As I said earlier, no big name or half-decent name is willing to sign for an MLS team, unless he's past his prime. Unfortunately, the MLS continues to attract the flops of European and Latin American soccer leagues. Don't take things out of context, please. The MLS having a higher average attendance than two indoor sports leagues does not reflect the importance or prospect of the league itself. Furthermore, as someone else was kind enough to confirm, the NASL of the 1980s also had higher average attendances than the NBA, which reinforces what I said earlier about the insignificance of petty statistics because, after all, look how things turned out for that league. Another thing you're probably shying away from mentioning is the fact the MLS charges a quarter of the ticket prices that the NBA and NHL charge for their games. Let's see how well the MLS can fare if it tries to up its ticket prices. Perhaps that's what you like to think, but there are skeptics in every business, including US soccer. Sometimes the skepticism is overblown; other times it's valid. By the way, you didn't answer my question about what the majority of Americans think of the MLS. For America's population of 300 odd million people, no it's not better, especially when your league charges low ticket prices than the other major US leagues that it's trying to "topple". You know what other league draws more supporters than Ligue 1? The Sky Bet Championship. Well, back then the MLS would've stood no chance so we're talking about different times. Yes, the NFL made their growth in America first, but it's the global market that will eventually maintain their status. You're really underestimating how important it is for the major US sports leagues to attract foreign interest. What do you think made the English league grow and the Scottish league falter? And your point is? An excess of 100 million bucks generated by Major League Baseball, just from international operations? Isn't that still five times more money than the MLS generates overall? Hardly a laughing matter then. And that's only baseball -- a sport that attracts less fans and, I'm sure, sells less merchandise than the NBA, internationally. Same amount of money the MLS makes from its entire TV deals. Whopping indeed. The NHL was also the slowest of the big four leagues to market itself globally. Terrible compared to even the Qatar Stars League. That terrible. The quality of soccer is not even remotely entertaining. Teams don't know how to play beautifully. It's no wonder why many Americans aren't willing to embrace the sport. You're beginning to contradict yourself again. By the same token, all that century or two of American sports history means the MLS should accept being fifth fiddle. What exactly am I doing? You're making it look like I've committed a crime. Sorry dear. Highest earning soccer league is all I need to know. Profit? No idea, but I'd take a guess and say second most profitable soccer league because the Germans have done a wonderful job emulating the American business strategy of financial parity, which should make them more profitable. Good on the Germans; they probably realized that if they didn't make things fairer, their league will self-destruct as result of Bayern Munich's dominance. The Spanish should take heed of the Germans and follow the same path, before soccer over there ends up crumbling like it did in Scotland. Still, however, the EPL is the capital of soccer. It's the most prestigious address and it leads the way in the same way the NBA leads the World of basketball. Should the English adopt a better business strategy, a la the American financial parity model that the Germans partially emulated, then many more countries would be quick to do the same thing. Anyway, I don't want to ramble on about another subject. Part of growing outward is to grow outside your own borders. No disagreement here. I doubt teens in California, for example, would go to an ice rink to play hockey, if they were also given the option of playing soccer in the beach or somewhere else in public. And unlike the exaggerated notion of demographics, I think that applies to all teens, not just Hispanics. I explained it, haven't I? It's about increasing foreign interest in the MLS. It will play a huge role in improving the finances of the MLS. Hopefully they'll get better TV deals than what they're getting today, which is unbelievably small in comparison to the other leagues. And it's about time the British concentrated on exporting the game to the United States. I'm amazed at how poorly soccer is performing in the Anglosphere (English-speaking World), given the fact the sport was made in England and should have spread quite easily to countries like the US. Another FIFA World Cup will do America good. And speaking of Sepp Blatter, his corrupt organization should have never awarded Qatar the World Cup. I'd rather the World Cup goes to America in 2022, so that it can give soccer in the US another boost. That should immediately be followed by an Australian World Cup in 2026, since Australia and New Zealand are in dire need of soccer growth as well. Sadly, the likes of Sepp Blatter, who you mentioned in your previous post, are the reason why soccer is stalling. Locally, it might continue to lag behind the big four sports. But if the MLS can globalize, they can reach better levels. That remains to be seen, however. I guess being fifth fiddle in the US is still a good achievement, unless somebody starts a professional Rugby competition and decides to give the MLS a run for their money. Fifth isn't a safe place, to be honest. I personally cant wait to see NYC FC in their debut season in 2015. I might even travel to New York with a few of my friends just to see them play. Honestly, there's potential and room for growth, but sometimes other external factors play a heavy hand in determining the outcome of a league. The New England Revolution are shit, and I say this as a fan of Boston and as someone who spent five years of her life in that part of the United States. The San Jose Earthquakes forward who ran back to the halfway line committed a crime against the sport LOL. Of all ways to let more Americans embrace soccer, his move was unnecessary to the cause LOL. To be honest, there are many things like that in the MLS. The quality simply isn't there. If I was running the MLS, my objective will not be to beat basketball or hockey. Instead, my objective would be to take down the NFL giants, become the best soccer league in the World and become the new permanent capital of soccer -- a soccer destination that the rest of the World will flock to. Very ambitious? Yep. Currently unrealistic? Of course. But you should always aim high. I just feel the MLS are complacent, although I was impressed by the announcement of a Manchester City-owned soccer club. I hope you're actually right about this because I did read somewhere that a number of major corporations refused to air MLS games because of the fact they couldn't make as much money off commercials as they could with American football and basketball games.
Catch up is not the same thing as being equal to. I'm quite aware of the factors I'm discussing here. I'm sure, based on what you've evidenced in your discussion so far, that you've no idea the gap between the current MLS revenues and that 1/4 number I mentioned earlier (that would put them as the highest revenue soccer league outside of the "big 5" euro leagues). That is a significant jump and would be "catching up" to the NHL. I didn't contradict anything I said. If anything about this discussion is arrogant, it is you thinking you have a grasp on the American sporting culture, landscape, and the role that "foreign" anything has in how it all got here. You clearly don't. Well, Sumo kills baseball in Japan ... soooooooo It doesn't matter who big the gap is. It matters that soccer is absolutely relevant and popular there. Again, I point to the NHL .... the gap between it and the other 3 leagues is pretty substantial. Yet it pulls in the revenues of the most popular soccer league in the world. You were saying ? Sure guy. This is where you and just about everyone else seriously overplays and underplays talent. You've never heard of those people. Guess what ? This side of the world has. I mentioned that the league was signing guys that Liga MX had been signing and the South American Leagues had been snatching up. Those are the exact guys. This is the stigma that this side of the world faces. Guess what ? I've not heard of many, many guys that the Euro clubs sign from TurkiminiRussiaslovakiastan .... but does that mean they aren't good ? Better than the previous talent ? Absolutely not. These aren't flops from South American Leagues. I've suggested it twice now and I'll do it a third. Update your perception. Actually take a look at who the league is bringing in. You want to point to Oba's rough patch. How was he when he was signed though ? OH, the best player on a CL team right smack in the middle of the CL campaign and in great form ? .... odd you chose to look past that. Dempsey is American, yes. He's also smack dab in his prime playing his best football. But yeah he's totally fixing to retire. Or not. Yes, look at how things turned out for that league .... that was run like the rest of the soccer world. Now look at this one, that's run like an American sporting league. Better attendance, viability, sustainability, stability, and year over year growth. Funny how that works eh ? A quarter ? Er, no. The average ticket price is just under half for the NHL and just over half for the NBA. It's also on par with the MLB. The lowest avg ticket price in the league (SKC) is higher than the lowest in the MLB and NHL. BUUUUUTTT history has nothing to do with this though. I mean it would totally be irrelevant to look at the prices when the MLS is 40+ years old though, right ? When the skepticism is coming from people that have absolutely zero pulse on the state of things and are merely doing "headline skimming" if that .... yeah, I don't even waste the grain of salt. Seriously, Euro purists talking about how the MLS isn't proper ... really ? That's valid ? I mean sure they're entitled to their opinion and such and I'm not refuting that. However, if some NFL journo went off on how the EPL and euro soccer isn't doing things in a proper manner ..... just how valid is that, really ? You want to get into who is avoiding or not answering what ? Not a good idea. The "majority" of Americans either don't care or have it down the list. TV numbers will tell you that. However, the "majority" of Americans are behind when it comes to soccer in general ... so how telling is that really ? It isn't trying to topple the big 4 American sports ... nice attempt at trying to shoehorn something into my verbiage though. I'd put more into this tidbit, but you feel that history means dick in this so I won't waste my time. With the 300 odd million people, why does any American league need the global market ? I'm not saying it's stupid to pay no attention to it, but you are greatly overplaying the importance of it. The NFL is head and shoulders above any other league in the world .... with virtually no global presence and a pittance percentage in terms of revenue from foreign sources. The answer to both of your questions is TV .... but up until this brand new contract for the EPL, care to show the revenue streams of that TV money ? Nice attempt at deflection. You've been clamoring about the huge international reach/presence/etc of these leagues, yet less than 5% of MLB's revenue comes from international sources. Yeah, that's barely a drop in the bucket. It points to the fact that you're greatly overstating the global reach and significance of the big 4 American leagues and greatly understating the fact that the US is big enough on its own to not only produce, but maintain MULTIPLE top leagues in the world. What are you basing that attendance tidbit on or the merchandise ? You do realize that HALF of the NBA's foreign revenue is from one country ... right ? Actually the NFL is the last one to get on the train ... ... and no, it isn't the same amount of money. Do you even bother taking 2 seconds to know the numbers or what it is you're talking about ? I ask because all you've done is throw shit out there hoping I wouldn't notice. Pretty much every fact/figure/etc you've put into this discussion has been flat out wrong. LOL ok ... this is just you being dense on purpose. Any non biased person that knows and follows soccer would not share this viewpoint. Which it can do just fine all the while attempting to catch the other four. What exactly is contradictory ? Your first sentence explains it all. If you just pick and choose what you want then yeah, everything is cakes and pies. Sorry dear, but there's much more to it than that. Now, read what you wrote directly beneath your "all I need to know" bit. Actually digest what you wrote. The EPL is still top, but it is being gained on quite quickly. Guess what model the AMERICAN SOCCER LEAGUE IS FOLLOWING ? ..... With the vast amount of growing domestically that is still to be done, why waste substantial efforts on the part of the soccer audience/investment/etc that is going to be the last thing to come around anyway ? There are FAR more important things to take care of HERE. Again, it isn't the sport ... just the American league that has never (until now) been all that cared for. Increasing foreign interest in the league is MAYBE in the top 10 things to be done. The TV deals can increase ten fold without a single foreign dollar. Oh, the British need to export the game here ? Oh dear. This entire half of the world doesn't quite play the "British" soccer ... we have an entirely different approach to it. That was an amazingly ignorant thing to say. Which set of people is going to fill the stands ? Which set of people is going to buy the jerseys/hats/etc ? Which set of fans is going to connect with the club and ingrain it in the community ? Sure as shit ain't Mr Bean. Being fifth could be quite significant. It depends on what revenue numbers the league can reach. I already pointed out what 1/4 of the revenue of 4th place would be ... dare to check the numbers if it got half ? 5th can be beyond a safe place to be, to be honest. Name one league that has been made or busted on the "foreign" aspect of giving a shit about it. I'm talking a major, significant sporting league in a country that counts (IE - not the Faeroe Islands league collapsing or some crap like that). LOL ... yeah that match from "the other night" that I called you out on ? I know right. Yeah, the Revs are shit. So is TFC. There are shit teams in every league everywhere. I've seen laughable "quality" this weekend in the EPL. They're anything but complacent ... which once again only points to you being ignorant of things here. You REALLY need to learn yourself on the state of things here. Like, really badly.
Going after the NFL in this country would be the stupidest thing to do. MLB,NHL, and NBA don't even go after them. Now on the Revs learn why they are shit. The Revs were one of the highest attendance teams for the first 5 years. But ownership didn't care and never tried to put a winner on the field. That pissed off the supporters who attended the games. By time the Revs started to turn things around on the field the fans had left and the other sports teams had a winning boom and winning titles, while the Revs lost 4 MLS Cups. Also having a stadium 30 miles outside the city center and no public transportation to get to the stadium makes it tough. Get a SSS in the city area and on public transit and you will see the Revs back up to 21k a game.
I think any attempt by MLS to draw a global fanbase would be a waste of time and money. MLS can't compete with the top leagues for fans in, say, China or India. The US and Canada are a huge market. As has been mentioned, even if MLS can grow to be a quarter of the size as the NHL in terms of revenues, that will make it one of the most successful soccer leagues in the world. Most soccer leagues in the world have a much lower potential ceiling than MLS. The leagues in places like Denmark or Austria can't compete with the top leagues, and their domestic markets are much smaller than the market MLS has access to. MLS can grow for a long, long time without saving to worry about expanding outside of the US and Canada.
I was with you up to that last point. The USA has a population of 300 million. Popularity for the game within the USA would drive up revenues far more than being shown globally would. Global rights go for peanuts unless the league is already popular. No it doesn't. The championship averaged 17500 last year compared to 19000 in Ligue 1. the premier league grew because of domestic tv renevue, not overseas revenue. Even now domestic tv cash is higher than the rights from the rest of the world. It's only now that it's nearly caught up. It's always been considerably smaller in the past. And foreign appeal isn't purely about quality. History/tradition does play a big part too. That's why Liverpool are still staggeringly popular despite never really even challenging for a premier league title. It's a very tough market. Not even the Brazilian and Argentine leagues have much of a foothold from overseas tv. The idea that overseas tv money is they route to success doesn't have a toe in reality. That's just nonsense. No it doesn't. That's just stupid. The smallest and worst NBA teams are richer and better and better than the best and richest the rest of the world has to offer. Hull City and Crystal Palace, in contrast, are not financial giants and supremely talented in comparison to the biggest clubs elsewhere. It is, but that can only be achieved when you are at a level that challenges the best elsewhere. Given that MLS games are also on live at times that are typically dreadful for the Asian market, and it'd be difficult to persuade people in Europe to watch, and South Americans have better options too, where exactly is this lucrative foreign market? You haven't explained how it could feasibly be achieved. They developed their own sports and sports culture, or adopted other British sports such as rugby. Why would rugby challenge MLS? Aiming high is terrific, but you need to have some kind of plan for getting there. Selling overseas tv rights isn't one that has any chance of working.
for the league to do it as a whole it would be. But it wouldn't be a waste of time and money for individual clubs to try to grow their brand. There are a handful of MLS clubs that can, if they think it will bring in revenues, grow their brand beyond the domestic market. Seattle, Portland, LA Galaxy come to mind.
LOL ... Hey guys, some random new poster in this topic totally agrees with what I say/think and does what I do by simply posting my opinion and basing my facts on my opinion. THIS GUY ROXORSOCKSERSOFF !
Do I need to quote what you told me the other day? Fine, let me do just that: "It doesn't have too. The NHL revenues match the EPL revenues. All that any soccer league in the US has to do, is catch 4th place." ^That's what you wrote. See how you're contradicting yourself? Now, all of a sudden, "catching up" isn't the same as "being equal to"? You keep on contradicting yourself. It's amazing, really. First, you argue that the MLS can catch the 4th place, and then you begin saying that the MLS can just be fifth fiddle and still grow as a league. Now, you're suggesting that catching the "4th place" does not equate the standard that you were originally envisioning in your previous comments. I can safely say you're beginning to argue just for the sake of argument. I've had a feeling you were running out of ideas anyway, since the first thing people do when they run out of ideas is hurl insults. So, contrary to what you claim, you're not aware of the factors you're discussing. You're not even aware of what you're discussing in the first place, let alone the factors associated to the discussion. Popular and relevant aren't terms that I think you should be using to describe soccer in Japan and South Korea. Ask any Japanese/Korean about soccer's popularity in their respective countries, and they'll tell you that it's almost irrelevant. The media, newspapers and TV channels hardly make mentions of soccer. It's baseball 24/7 in those countries, and it's going to remain that way. You listed those names as if to brag about the MLS's position, even when the names you mentioned are hardly valuable in most European and Latin American soccer leagues, which was my original point. Now, if you want to compare the MLS to the dying Scottish league, then it's a different matter. Martins was a flop at Wolfsburg and inconsistent at Newcastle. That's a fact, so just get over it. If he wasn't a flop, he sure as heck wouldn't have gone to America to spend the remainder of his career as a Seattle Sounders player. I'm not trying to disrespect your country/league, but it's just the way things are at the moment. I wish him well in the US, but you shouldn't be exaggerating about the talent the MLS has because it's clearly deprived of that. Please make up your mind about the history argument. You seem to cherry-pick the moments of arguing about historical context whenever they suit your agenda, and then ignore the points made when they contradict your opinions. As for ticket prices, I got that information from a sports finance blog. Make of it what you will, but it remains to be seen how far the MLS can really go when it is forced to raise its ticket prices in order to grow as a league. Very valid. There are many NFL analysts who shared their views on the way European leagues are going about their business, and many valid points were made. So what exactly is wrong with listening to the other side? I guess since we've already established you're an isolationist, it's no surprise you don't like to hear a little bit of skepticism. Let's just hope those running the MLS do not have this air of arrogance, otherwise their project will become NASL 2.0 in no time. As for the NFL in the context of European soccer leagues, it's only a matter of time before Europe begins taking advice from the NFL on how to properly run a business. One of the reasons why the Scottish league went downhill is because it represented almost everything that was wrong with the European model. Financial parity is crucial for the future of European soccer, and it's the integral component that made the big four US sports league the best run leagues in the World. What else are the Germans trying to follow? Of course, it remains to be seen if Spain can adapt this model, since it's likely going to create negative reactions from clubs like Barcelona and Real Madrid, which monopolized Spanish football for quite a long time and will feel threatened by such a proposal. Anyway, yes, sometimes it's nice to hear what the other side has to say. No sane business would isolate itself from the arena of exchanging ideas. The MLS needs a global market so that it can reach the 4th place you've been clamoring about. You know, the 4th place that puts the MLS at the same financial status as the EPL. You also cant rely too much on the domestic market. Any sane business would diversify. The MLS would also eventually be threatened by newer leagues coming into existence, such as a professional Rugby union competition. There are many reasons for a league to expand globally. In many ways, it assures the league a form of stability, which you're too naive to write off as negligible. Yes, TV played a significant role. And where do you think the EPL made most of its TV money from? Obviously not local, since not all EPL games are available in England. But it's not just that. The Scottish league also demised because it was dominated by two teams that destroyed just about any financial fairness that might or might not have existed. The EPL will go down that road if it doesn't reform its league and make things more even among the clubs. It's a complex combination of many reasons. In the meantime, however, the EPL has the advantage of being the most prestigious soccer address and, therefore, a source of strong foreign investment that keeps the competitive level maintained in spite of the unfair economic model. But they're just buying time before they inevitably reform, or implode. Again, so that I don't ramble on about another subject, I'll leave it at that. Conversely, you're downplaying the size of 5%, which appears to be negligible to you, but is actually worth gigantic sums of money compared to what the MLS makes in its totality. Imagine what that 5% can actually do for the MLS. I personally think five major sports leagues are one too many. The MLS will always be fifth fiddle if it concedes defeat and resigns to being the 5th sports league of the United States. You said 20 million bucks, right? Isn't that roughly the same amount of money the MLS are generating from their TV deals? So the NHL have made off international sales roughly the same amount of money that the MLS is making per year from its local TV deals. Right, this should stop here. You really cant go one post without being disrespectful, can you? I watched enough MLS and QSL games to know which league has the best quality of soccer, and you'll be surprised to hear that it's not the MLS. The MLS will get a better TV deal alright, but you'll have Manchester City to thank for that. Don't equate yourself with Latin America. Yes, the British needed to put more emphasis in exporting soccer to the American market. It's great they finally got their act together. Decades after soccer made its rebirth in the US because of the World Cup, the English are finally beginning to care about the American market. The NBC deal with the Premier League and New York City FC among the notable examples. But it's still a mountain to climb. As for your entirely different approach, yeah thanks, I already know what approach you're talking about. Lack of build up, rushing the game, ping pong soccer. It's past midnight here, by the way. Al Jazeera Sports are showing Chivas and New York Red Bulls. Look at all those die hard Los Angeles fans attending a soccer game LOL! Scottish Premier League. Of course, many countries have their own surviving leagues, but these leagues lack ambition and aren't really growing that well. Other countries took a sustainable approach of simply being happy with what they have, but these leagues aren't ambitious and certainly don't dream about overtaking more popular ones. If this is the direction you're trying to take with the discussion, then you're probably in the wrong discussion. This thread is about the possibility of the MLS breaking the big four dominance, not about the league surviving locally and becoming just another statistic. Most soccer leagues around the World are in a mess, by the way.
I have to adjust fire to the debate ... it's like the flow of traffic. Do you even remember what I made that comment in response to ? What my subsequent point about catching up to was in response to ? Yes, I said two different things ... it was also in response to the what the debate with you brought. I'm sorry you can't follow the bouncing ball. Quite the contrary ... I can do both at the same time. I'm very aware, just like I'm aware that you've been moving the goalposts ... thus the trajectory of my kick has changed. Soccer is the second most attended sport in Japan. The club averaged 31.5m in revenue per club in 2012 and total revenue hit 567m ... that's in the top 10 in the world. The 100 year vision and explosion of popularity since the reformation in 1993 .... but sure, it's totally irrelevant. No, I listed the names for two reasons. The first being to illustrate just how outdated your perception is. The second was to hopefully get you to take 2 seconds and look at the players that the league is signing now. I see you didn't do that. You perpetuate your own ignorance. That's wonderful. If you refuse to come out from behind your Brito-shaded views and biases ... you really shouldn't bother with commenting and discussing anything. He was so inconsistent and such a flop that Wolfsburg paid 9m sterling for him. You're still glazing over the FACT that he was well in form for a CL team in the middle of their CL campaign when he signed with the MLS. YOU get over it. I'm not exaggerating the talent, I'm merely pointing to the fact that the talent that is here and now coming here, is far beyond your outdated thought process. We aren't signing Denilson anymore. We're signing guys like Bieler and Valeri ... guys that have led their clubs to winning the Libertadores and their leagues in South America on some of the bigger clubs. Simply because you're uneducated on these events, players, etc doesn't make them insignificant. How so ? I've maintained that history is a huge part of all of this ... you're the one that stated it didn't mean anything. What the shit are you on about ? There's a difference between being skeptical and asking questions and wanting to discuss .... and you coming in here pretending to know what needs to be done. You weren't being skeptical. You were stating things as though they were fact and basing it only on your Brito-centric viewpoint. You aren't being skeptical. You're pretending to know what's best for the league despite being far outside of it and the sporting culture in which it exists. That doesn't make me isolationist. That makes you ignorant. It is, when the other side isn't spouting things off as fact. RichardL and I (and others) have discussions all the time and it's quite nice. It is also an actual exchange of ideas, not someone from somewhere else telling things like they should be. No, it doesn't. It doesn't need a single dollar of foreign money to reach that. Why is that hard for you to understand ? This country is big enough to do it (it has for four leagues already) ... ... no I'm not saying it would be smart to go that route or that the foreign market should be completely ignored. All I'm saying is that your incessant need to claim that the MLS needs the foreign market is flat out wrong. It would be nice yes, but the last thing it is is a necessity. Do you not understand that the MLS is this very league right now ? What's naive is thinking that the MLS is at a point to actually head out after the foreign market. There are so many in house issues to take care of first, and no going after the foreign market won't fix them. The investment and foundation of this league is quite substantial and something you either flat out ignore or don't grasp. Any start up league is facing quite the task to even think about threatening the MLS. The MLS is the "it" thing in the American sporting market right now ... so much so that it is being tossed around as a bargaining chip, leverage, etc in proposals all over the place. RichardL already kicked this one down your throat ... I won't bother. You're confusing two points. You were trying to make the point about the significance of the foreign monies/involvement for the other leagues. I shot that down. It had nothing to do with the MLS. Good attempt at trying to whitewash it into something else to try and make yourself look good. Sorry though, I pay attention. No, you said 20m ... I know of 30m but that's without one of the Spanish deal monies. Yeah, like that RSL/SJ match from "the other night" ? I watch regularly, no less than 12 leagues. That doesn't make me an expert by any means ... but it does allow me to know that you're simply full of shit on this one. Yes, Manchester City will be the sole reason for that one ... totally. You're right, it should end at this point. I'm sorry, where did I do that ? Despite what you want to believe, the US is part of this half of the world and falls more in line with how soccer is approached here than in the Euro half. Also, the Brito-centric approach isn't the main take here either. Newsflash ... there are far more significant influences here. We play a more physical game (not just the US, but this half of the world). Yes, ours is the most raw ... but that's what happens when you're 40+ years behind in development of EVERYTHING. I watched ping pong soccer this weekend in the EPL, guess we're on the right track according to you. Thank you for helping my illustration of just how well off the MLS is and how intelligent the approach it is taking actually is.
They did that over 20 years ago in England when setting up a breakaway league was being considered. They are running how they've always run. It's got nothing to do with US leagues. The Bundesliga has no parity measures at all. It just has rules designed to prevent insolvency. How is rugby union a threat? The playing pool in miniscule, and good luck in trying to persuade players to come over from the British Isles, France or the southern hemisphere. dear lord... This is the crux of your argument, and you don't have a clue. Even now, after two decades of trying to build that overseas brand, domestic revenue is still higher than overseas revenue. up to the end of last season... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...r-League-sell-TV-rights-3-billion-BT-Sky.html http://www.sportingintelligence.com...gue-prize-and-tv-payments-for-2012-13-210501/ Domestic - £594 million Overseas - £378 million From this season domestic rights are going for £1 billion a year, with overseas rights at around £750 million. Why would all those Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man City fans around the world want parity? Do you think Barcelona fans in Hong Kong wish for a league where Barcelona have no more chance of success than Sporting Gijon?