Do You Have A Question For Cooper?

1) I don't ask any questions, I don't write for the website in question.
2) You would expect someone with objectivity (although I am objective about the guy, I think---I certainly don't love him) to ask an interviewee "how [they] sleep at night?" what the ******** kind of publication *would* ask that, besides the NY Post or Nat'l Inquirer.
3) What we have from the Globe-Democrat (a two-bit paper when it was printed, and an irrelevant website now) is flat denials and accusations from WPS officials and "other owners". Sorry, but they've got a bit of incentive to make Jeff look bad, don't they?



4) You really can't support the team because of the owner? Really? Really? You people act like he was a camp guard at Auschwitz. At best, he got in over his head w/Athletica, and at worse, he made a cold-blooded business decision. Oh my God, I can't believe it---a millionaire making a decision based on money??? I thought he got rich by *giving it away*.

I'd like to ask if you are a Cardinals, Rams, Royals, etc. fan, because their owners have all done some shady things and screwed some people over, royally. I'm not talking about 20 players and a few thousand fans being disappointed, I'm talking about massive layoffs, firings under false pretenses, etc. for the sake of increasing the bottom line.

However much I dislike the owners, I realize that the team is about more than the guy calling the shots. It's about the players, my fellow fans, and above all, a love of the sport. Be honest---it wasn't about the owner when the team was around, it was about the team, wasn't it? So just because things went pear-shaped shouldn't force you to stop doing what you enjoy. Or was it not about the game at all?

I really cannot fathom where you're coming from. Let go of your bitterness. Come out, enjoy yourself, and don't let somebody's poor planning/craven business decision (whichever you prefer) ruin your ability to enjoy the sport.

 

Battra,
Let me get this straight. You have the opportunity to submit questions to the reclusive Mr. Cooper, and you are unwilling to ask anything about the demise of the Athletica, which was unfortunately the biggest soccer story in St. Louis in 2010? Given that the only public statement made by ownership concerning the Athletica's folding was a press release that blamed the Vaids, I think Athletica fans would be curious to know what really happened. Also, since ACSTL crowds are similar to what the Athletica drew, an answer to that question might be instructive as to the future of ACSTL also. If you didn't like the tone of the question, you could certainly rephrase it. Perhaps your personal curiousity as to why the Athletica folded is satisfied, but obviously others feel that there is more to the story than blaming the Vaid brothers, the WPS, the economy or the difficulty of sustaining "minor-league" teams.

Athletica fans saw their talented team fold without much of an explanation as to why. Just because the team only existed for a little more than a year doesn't mean their fans weren't very emotionally invested in the success of the franchise. Don't you think they deserve a better explanation of what happened?

Here's the issue. Your blog, FPF, can either be a house organ for AC St. Louis, which is fine, or you can have ask the tough questions of ownership when given the opportunity. It's difficult to have it both ways.

 

Athletica folding was the biggest soccer story? How about the return of pro men's soccer after 40 years? I think that was a pretty big story.

And, as for the "tough questions," what do you want? You want to ask why Athletica folded? Because Cooper (in what was, in hindsight, a poor decision) sold the majority share to the Vaids. Then, when they went broke, the team was out of money. Cooper had a lack of liquid funds as well as contractual reasons why he couldn't pay money that was owed by the Vaids. AC survived because the USSF helped out. WPS did not help Athletica, so they were folded.

There. Now you know. So, maybe Flooplain can move on to asking relevant questions about AC's future and finances instead of asking Cooper to repeat information we've all known for months.

 

The return of men's outdoor professional soccer after 37 years was a big story, but unfortunately the demise of the Athletica got more national play. I'm hoping ACSTL can win out their last three games, and with some help from other teams, make the USSF D2 playoffs. Then THAT would be the biggest soccer story out of St. Louis in 2010.

Mr. Cooper should talk about what happened with the Athletica. It would perhaps heal the wounds of the Athletica fans who saw their team fold with very little fanfare. Obviously, two individuals brought the topic up on this thread, so it's still a legitimate question. Considering that ACSTL's attendance dropped after the Athletica folded and hasn't rebounded, there seems to be a at least some correlation, especially when one factors in improved performance of AC St. Louis the last few months. Being more transparent about what happened would serve Mr. Cooper and the AC St. Louis franchise well, and win back some fans. Nobody wants to ride Cooper out of town on a rail, but the folding of the Athletica was a PR disaster that still needs to be fixed.

 

a) heal the wounds? jesus christ, the team was there for a YEAR. what wounds. this isnt the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn, this is suburban IL having a team, then not having one. nobody had nails driven into their palms and feet.
b) I think what led to lower attendance was: 1) lack of marketing, 2) rumors about collapse of AC STL, not Athletica, 3) poor location, 4) poor scheduling, 5) some bad weather, and 6) poor play.
c) by the way, none of this got "national play" beyond the soccer geek crowd to which we belong. I'm not sure most people in St. Louis knew about it. Thus, it wasn't really a PR disaster---and even if it was, the absolute worst thing to do about bad news that is three months old is to bring it up again. Give it another three and most people will forget about it. Give it six and no one will care, besides the 100 or so die-hards who will sit at home, refusing to enjoy themselves.

 

Most people in St. Louis still have no clue there is a men's D-2 team....or that Athletica even existed.

I understand that there is a group of "soccerheads" in St. Louis that are looking into taking over the Soccer Park, but not AC STL.

 

I agree, but I would argue that 1 and 2 were the real issues. The marketing has been a complete disaster, money problems or no. And the fact that AC's attendance dropped was more due to a lack of confidence in AC's finances than anything regarding Athletica.

5 is inevitable in St. Louis. 6 is inevitable for expansion teams.

I'm not sure what scheduling problems you mean in 4. It was unfortunate to have the home games back-loaded in the season, but at least we were able to avoid a large number of mid-week games. I'm not sure a more balanced schedule would really have helped much.

And 3, the location? Where do you want them to play? Please don't tell me you expect someone to build a brand new downtown stadium for a D2 team.

Absolutely. I feel bad for Athletica fans, but no one cared more about that team than Liz (Rokagirl), and she's moved on to being a hardcore AC fan. If she can do it, anyone can.

 

STLSpurs seems to think that the diminished attendance the last few months at AC St. Louis games has nothing to do with the aftermath of the folding of St. Louis Athletica, but rather blames poor marketing, rumors of ACSTL's demise, poor location, poor scheduling, bad weather and poor play. Let's address that reasoning.

Poor marketing -- Many agree that ACSTL's marketing has been subpar. But has it gotten worse since earlier in the season? I think not. ACSTL continues to market using Facebook and Twitter and has sponsored promotional nights and discounted tickets. Also, in the last few months, AC STL has gotten the support of another local blog, guerilla marketing by supporters groups, more local television news coverage surrounding the hiring of Coach Schilly and more coverage in the St. Louis Post Dispatch. How does poor marketing explain the decline in attendance?

Rumors of ACSTL's demise -- Since word got our in June of Mr. Cooper's funding of the club, it's been clear that the team would at least finish out the 2010 season.

Poor location -- AB Soccer Park is in the same place it was when the team drew 5695, 2985 and 3402 fans in its first three games. The soccer park is near the Hwy 270255 loop that circles the St. Louis metro area, on the western edge midway on a north-south axis. The proposed Collinsville location for an MLS team was similarly located near the Hwy 270/255 loop, near midway of the north-south axis, but on the eastern edge of the metro area.

Bad weather -- St. Louis has its share of hot/humid days and thunderstorms just like every other city in America.

Poor scheduling -- Yes, the D2 schedule in 2010 leaves a lot to be desired, but it has been ugly for all the teams, not just AC St. Louis.

Poor performance -- Near the end of the first third of the season, ACSTL stood at 1-7-1. Since the, with 3 games remaining, they have won six more games and have an outside chance at the playoffs. The poor performance was EARLY in the season, not now.

Depending if you want to include opening night in the averages (opening nights generally draw big crowds), ACSTL attendance has dropped between 600-1000 per game despite the team playing much better and with increased an increased media profile since the Athletica folded. I don't see how one can dismiss the folding of the Athletica and the way it was handled as not part of that problem.

The Athletica drew crowds of 3300 (twice), 3100 and 2300 in its four 2010 home games, and drew crowds of over 8000 and 5000 in its two road games, attesting at least to a degree that the team had stars that fans were interested in seeing. Even in just its second season, the team had won fans with its high profile stars that demonstrated an interest in the community.

I'm not saying that the folding of the Athletica needs to be told and retold indefinetely, but rather that an opportunity was missed for Mr. Cooper to talk about what happened, acknowledge the feelings of the fans who felt betrayed, and say "I'm sorry" -- one of the most powerful phrases in the English language. If one thinks that an owner's unwillingness to admit ro his poor decisions doesn't affect attendance, please read "Bad Sports" by Dave Zirin, particularly the chapter about Orioles' owner Peter Angelos. Angelos, the local Baltimore boy made good, was a tort attorney who was deemed to be the savior of the Orioles' franchise when he purchased it. In the ensuing years, Angelos' mistakes, and his refusal to acknowledge them and dialogue with the Baltimore fans, have eroded the team's fanbase and made the once-proud franchise a laughing stock.

I think it would be in Mr. Cooper's best interests and those of AC St. Louis to talk about what happened, once and for all, concerning the Athletica franchise. The failure to do so will always cast a shadow over his endeavors in the soccer world. And though STLSpurs ridicules Athletica fans based on the team's short existence, I think he should look back at all the "AC Til I Die" sloganeering going on after the team had played a few games. Loyalties to team's can grow quickly, and for fans who invested into Athletica both financially and emotionally, there really has never been any closure.

 

a) AC Till I Die---a nice song that is a take-off of every english clubs song. for a while it was "I'm AC till they fold". It's nice to think so, but I dont think people will think its the Holocaust all over again if they go.
b) Yes, poor marketing and rumors of demise. They go hand in hand. The rumor of the demise was far more widely reported than general team news, and probably stuck in people's heads.
c) the first three games had the "novelty" buzz, and then the team began to perform horribly, and then the news of the financial crisis hit. With no marketing, I think people just tuned out.
d) You have a couple points in there (weather, scheduling), saying that it applies to all DII teams. Well, yes. I'm sure it hurts attendance everywhere. That doesn't mean that it's not a factor in driving down attendance in St. Louis. Oh, and we had some CRAP weather. Weather that Baltimore, Carolina, Rochester, Minnesota, etc. does not get. 105+humidity. And the scheduling? sorry, but unless there are 6000 soccerheads like us, people arent going to give up a Sat. night for minor league soccer.
e) Just because the Collinsville location was proposed for the MLS doesn't mean it wasnt a bad one---hell, thats one of the reasons the bid was rejected. And yes, 270 and 44 IS a bad location. Most of the population of St. Louis, and esp. the soccer watching population is clustered around the 40 corridor, not in southwest county. I know it's not that far, but there's a mental block about "Fenton" that makes it seem so far away---at least thats what quite a few people have told me.
f) Correlation between sagging attendance and Athletica folding does not imply causation.
g) folks in baltimore don't show up b/c the team is a wreck, not because they hate peter angelos. nobody in minnesota liked carl pohlad, but they come.
h) I'd like to get back to the marketing bit:

***Poor marketing -- Many agree that ACSTL's marketing has been subpar. But has it gotten worse since earlier in the season? I think not. ACSTL continues to market using Facebook and Twitter and has sponsored promotional nights and discounted tickets. Also, in the last few months, AC STL has gotten the support of another local blog, guerilla marketing by supporters groups, more local television news coverage surrounding the hiring of Coach Schilly and more coverage in the St. Louis Post Dispatch. How does poor marketing explain the decline in attendance?***




----That is a mockery of the word "marketing". You need direct mail, people cold-calling, street teams, radio ads, print ads, tv ads, live-remotes from radio shows, TV coverage on local news, etc. You need big EVENTS during the world cup, not a watch party at soccer park.

Facebook, Coach Dale, and Tom Timmermann are not a marketing strategy. I like the marketing guys a lot, but it's not enough.


How does poor marketing explain poor attendance? Sorry, but what? Of course it does. Nobody will buy your product if they don't know it exists. The facebook page and coach dale's blog are preaching to the choir, but nobody is pulling new people in. People whose kids do Scott Gallagher aren't being contacted. The local soccer-elite (you know, the older crowd) aren't being contacted. There is no Hispanic or Bosnian outreach. There is almost nothing.

 

I'm just saying leave me out of this because I still have dreams that they are playing and still cry about the loss. And no, I'm not being a smart-@ss or funny. I really do. They are a sore subject to me and reading this forum is honestly ticking me off from a big fan's point of view.

 

Oh, and the 2300 people at that Athletica game were there in 50 degree weather and pouring rain. How's that for attendance? Wanna keep going on about the heat on a summer night? Spare me. People came out to the Athletica game in droves and brought people with them. They had good crowds on summer days (not so many night games like the men got) even considering that they moved locations 3 times.

Perhaps we should quit discussing the Athletica because unless you were there at the games and living it first-hand you cannot, I repeat, CANNOT speak about the dedication of the fans, crowds, etc.

Thank you.

 

Well I wouldn't exactly say that people came out in droves for Athletica games. But I guess it depends on you describe "droves."

They were getting an "listed attendance" of about 3,000 per game. While some will say that's fine, I think that number should been between 4,000-5000 per game.

I mean my god we had some of the BEST players in the world....the VERY BEST GK in the WORLD in Hope Solo...other US National team players, including our very own Lori Chalupny. She's one of the main reasons I went to the games. I like to support the local players.

But I actually think Athletica attendance was sub-par.

There was NO marketing dollars in the budget this year for either team. It was all planned to be email, facebook, twitter, blogs, etc. You get what you pay for. No marketing = no big crowds.

The whole business plan in general was horrible from Day 1. And now here were are, perhaps on the brink of seeing our very last pro outdoor soccer game in St. Louis.....unless someone else steps up.

 

I'm sorry to bring you up and stir up bad feelings. That was my fault. I was just using you as an example of what's good about both Athletica and AC fans. Much love.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I still don't get this one. Where exactly should they play? There's just no better location that's even remotely feasible, so if you're saying people won't go to the only realistic location, then that's like saying they won't draw fans no matter what.

I also think you're overestimating the 40 corridor. We're not talking about commuting to work, we're talking about soccer fans. More of them are going to come from south than north (especially the entire Bosnian fanbase), and the bulk of the population that lives along 40 is far enough west that getting to 270 is no big deal. (If you're coming from Illinois, you're screwed either way. Sorry.)

After the opening game, you need marketing to make people take the team seriously and to draw new fans to each game, since not everyone will go to all fifteen home games.

Coming up with a promotion and listing it on Facebook barely counts as marketing. It means the team is spending an average of 5 minutes and $0 on marketing for each game.

Marketing over Facebook is just preaching to the choir. News coverage has been between minimal and non-existant. High school sports get more coverage. Floodplain Footy was started by frustrated fans who wanted a better news source. I love those guys and their site, but while it has the potential to become a well-known news outlet (basically, St. Louis' equivalent of IMS), right now the bulk of their readers are probably the same die-hards who already read all of these threads. And the marketing by the supporters groups was the idea of those of us in the groups. We approached the team, not the other way around.

 

If we're talking about the soccer base, I think the city, along the 40 corridor, is the only place that makes sense. You have the parents with kids, many of whom live in the county. You have the younger people like me, who live/want to live in a more urban setting---many of these people are in Tower Grove South/East, Soulard, U City, maybe Downtown. You have a big Bosnian population on the south side, along with a growing Hispanic population in the Cherokee St. area.

The area around SLU/just north of SLU makes a lot of sense, should somebody step in to buy this team. Lots of cheap land (esp. north, but also south of the SLU campus), close to 40,44, a metrolink stop, forest park pkwy/lindell, and just up kingshighway and grand from the south side. Sorry, but as accessible as 44/270 seems to us die-hard fans, for most people, it's a bit too far.

In terms of planning, St. Louis' infrastructure is designed to funnel people towards/away from downtown, on an east-west axis.

The Richmond Heights location isn't ideal in my mind (partly due to the traffic that exists despite the new 40 construction), but it is a good one as well.

Simply put, the team needs to be closer to it's fanbase, and way southwest on 44 is not where the fans are.

I'm not saying that I expect the team to move---just as I don't expect the team to wake up and start marketing themselves, but we're talking about what the team has done wrong, and the location is one of those things.



The two biggest problems facing this team are marketing and location, in that order.






p.s.
I didn't mean any criticism of Athletica fans to be directed at rokagrl, but at the "soccer fans" who are trolling the boards sniping at Cooper like he's Dr. Mengele.

 

I won't continue to belabor the point. If you don't think the handling of the demise of the Athletica has hurt attendance at ACSTL games, then feel free to think so. I'm not saying it's the only cause, but it's an important one.

But let me correct a few points. St. Louis isn't the only D2 city with extreme weather. When ACSTL played in Baltimore back in July, the official temperature at gametime was listed at 101 degrees. NSC Minnesota's game with Carolina last week was delayed an hour and a half by lightning and heavy storms, and the game had to be played with large puddles on the field, with about 70 hearty souls staying til the end.

And you're also wrong, STLSpurs, about the feelings of Oriole fans towards owner Peter Angelos. Here is a quote from Baltimore Sun-Times sports columnist David Steele "I can't remember a sports figfure in my coverage area, in all the different places I've worked, who's image among fans and media was worse than Peter Angelos's." Steele also is quoted concerning Baltimore fans' relationship with Angelos "People here genuinely hate him.."
Angelos inspired a walk-out by Orioles fans in September, 2007 organized by Nestor Aparicio, owner of Baltimore radio station WNST Angelos also inspired a song by Baltimore songwriter Randy Lotz entitled "Let Go of them O's (Mr. Angelos)." But surely the feelings of fans towards Angelos, his handling of the team and his unwillingness to address the issues with fans, has nothing to do with the team's declining attendance at a beautiful ballpark.

And I'm curious how you came up with the idea that "unless there are 6000 soccerheads like us, people arent going to give up a Sat. night for minor league soccer." Huh??? Should the team schedule games on weeknights instead???? Or should we just throw in the towel?

I also wonder how you decided that "the first three games had the "novelty" buzz.." Maybe the ACSTL opener, sure, but the first three??? The third game was played five weeks after the opener, and drew 3400. Since the team has had attendance figures between 2100 and 2600 since then, where did those 800 to 1300 fans go? The marketing of the team was poor when they drew 5600 to the opener, it hasn't gotten worse. The team's on-field performance is much improved. So why aren't those fans showing up anymore? I submit that many were turned off by the folding of Athletica, and the clumsy way it was handled, and have never had their disappointment addressed by the owner. Talking about it would be a small gesture, but a positive one.

Small gestures mean a lot. In 1947, President Harry Truman made an official visit to Mexico. During his three day trip there, he ordered his motorcade to make an unscheduled stop at historic Chapultepec Castle, and walked to the monument honoring Los Ninos Heroes, the teenaged cadets who gave their lives defending their nation from American invasion 100 years before. Truman bowed his head in silence after laying a wreath at the monument to the fallen Mexican heroes. Truman was a student of history besides being a WWI veteran, and he wanted to honor the bravery of these young men.

Huge headlines in Mexican newspapers extolled Truman's gesture. One headline read "Rendering Homage to the Heroes of '47, Truman Heals an Old National Wound Forever." Another read "Friendship Begins Today." An American reporter quoted a Mexican cab driver as saying that "To think that the most powerful man in the world would come here and apologize." Another Mexican citizen was quoted afterwards that "One hundred years of misunderstanding and bitterness were wiped out by one man in one minute today."

Everyone makes bad decisions. But the ability to apologize and explain why those decisions were made creates goodwill. Someone who does that is a real leader....someone who doesn't is another Peter Angelos.

 

I do agree that Cooper has made a mistake by not addressing the issue at all. Even if he is "legally" handcuffed in what he can say, a simple apology and a statement about moving forward with a promise to not make the same mistakes would be appreciated by all sides. Some fans will never come back because they've had their hearts broken by the demise of Athletica, but it would be at least a step in the right direction for all soccer fans that want to support the sport in our city and AC STL in specific. Hopefully he will eventually address the issue.

Battra, I think you could address it- not by asking "HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT?"- that's inflamatory, but a more general- "Is there anything you would like to say to Soccer Fans in St. Louis about the Athletica situation or the Vaid brothers and how that affected both teams." It can be asked in a way that is respectful.

 

a) I will. Thank you.
b) Extreme weather is not unique to St. Louis, you are right. But just because it pisses down rain in Minnesota doesn't mean that the heat doesn't keep some St. Louis fans at home. One thing has nothing to do with the other.
c) Yes, it is all Peter Angelos. It has nothing to do with the fact that the Orioles have WON NOTHING since 1997, when they led the American League in attendance. And Peter Angelos was the owner!
d) The way I decided that the first few games had a novelty buzz was the same way you decided that Peter Angelos is to blame for such horrible attendance. Actually, my theory is more plausible, because there is a preponderance of data that disproves the Angelo's business. The Athletica folding/decreasing attendance is simply speculation. And yes, the marketing was poor at the beginning, but there was hype---not sure if you live in the area or not, but people were talking about it for months at the soccer bars, etc. Once summer came around, it seemed to be pushed to the back of people's heads.
e) Oh, and how did I come up with the Sat. night thing? There are a few studies that I remember reading, but I don't have them at hand. Rather, anecdotal evidence will have to suffice---I know plenty of people who are big soccer fans (maybe not die-hards) that find that things get in the way of driving to Fenton on a Sat. night. Nobody is saying give up---I think that games should be on weeknights. Thursdays would be ideal---flights would be cheaper, as would hotels. Young people would be more likely to show up if the game doesn't interfere with concerts, parties, or just the biggest going-out night of the week.
f) Comparing Jeff Cooper and the Athletica situation to Harry Truman and the Mexican-American war is breathtakingly delusional. That said, I don't think an apology will help bring back the few hundred Athletica stalwarts---all it will do is remind people that Cooper was in a deal that went sour, a horrible PR move as any publicist worth his salt will tell you.

 

I would like to say that I too would like Cooper to at least say something to the point of "hey, sorry".

I know it sounds odd but I think it would really help me and a lot of other fans to just hear those words out of his mouth. He doesn't need to give me the 20 minute debriefing of what went down, just say, "Hey fans, it was a terrible thing that happened and I'm sorry it happened like it did. Thanks for the support and helping make Athletica as great as it was." But something personal too... not just something on a generic letterhead with him signing it.

I think it would help a lot of wounds that are still lingering about the way it was handled. I know of at least 6-7 people off the top of my head that aren't going to the AC games because of how the front office handled things. That reason goes beyond just losing the team, it feels personal.

 

At the risk of belaboring the location point (which has been discussed in other threads), you are vastly overestimating the amount of cheap land available near SLU. I work in the Central West End, and I would love to see a soccer stadium around here, but there's just nowhere remotely feasible economically. This isn't like fans in Boston driving to Foxborough, it's 15 minutes down the highway. The South City fans can all hop on 44 very easily.

Moving Saturday games to Thursdays would make no sense. You'd give up on all of the fans with real jobs in exchange for a handful of college students who'd rather party on Saturdays? What kind of parties are they going to that start before 9:30 anyway?

 

have to agree with this. The Wednesday and Friday games we had this year were tough. I live about 45 minutes away from the park (no matter where you move it) and after work on those days I was hustling to get to the game on time. Then I'd have to leave immediately following to get home and to bed before work the next morning. That would really suck. I want people with kids at the games too so having to get up and go to school the next morning would be a tough sell to the wife on a weekly basis.

Seph is right, college kids can come to a Saturday night game and then go to a party after that. I think you have to cater a little bit to the grown ups with jobs that will be paying for most of the tickets.

 

a) Look at the area north of SLU, around Cardinal Ritter. Cheap as chips, to borrow a British expression. Look at the area just south of there. Acres and acres for sale, and I'm not joking. Knockdown prices right now, too. Anyway, that's just a hypothetical situation, should the team stick around. The last thing I'll say is that there is a reason that the Cardinals, Rams, and Blues are in the city center.
b) I'm not just talking about college students, I'm talking about people 18-35. Many of our casual fans (including a number of my friends) decide that they can't make the match due to other social obligations. Thursday nights or weekend matinees are ideal.
c) As far as folks hopping on 44, I agree that it's not that long of a drive, but I think that a psychological block still exists when you mention the words "Fenton" or "head south on 44".

 

sorry, three more quick points:

*CWE is prohibitively expensive, but I'm talking Midtown.
*I agree that 7-930 is not party time, but I still know plenty of people who view the game as interfering with going out to dinner, concerts, or simply impeding their preparations for going out.
* 930 is kinda late for kids, but during the summer, what's the issue? Also I appreciate that folks like chickenhead have a long commute, but 930 isnt so late for folks with jobs either---in bed by 11 on a thursday, up at 530 or 6. Okay, so a little tiring, but that could be alleviated by a 6:45 kickoff instead of 7:15.