Oops, I didn't say that. I see no 'organized tactics for offensive football' at all 'evolving' nowadays; on the contrary, the emphasis from 1990 to 2006 has always been on defense. What I said was that REAL offensive football is at the brink of coming back due to the gradual dismantling of the defense-oriented big Euro clubs in function of the present world economic crisis. But this is so old… In 1958 – just like today - Feola could have had Pelé and Mazzola (who would later become the legendary Altafini in Italy) in front - both way more technical than Vavá - precisely because he needed that same 'target man' (Vavá) 'up there' aided by a ‘more technical forward’ (either Mazzola or Pelé) ‘linked’ to Didi, at that time the ‘team’s star player’… Along with that I can cite hundreds of other examples after or before 58. 'Specific roles' started with football itself & are not a privilege of 'modern' football. As a matter of fact it was precisely against those 'specific roles' that Rinus Michels rebelled with his Cockwork Orange in the already longinquous year of 1974 (35 years ago!). 'Total football', a step ahead in the game, saw its influence last only up to the late 80's. 'Specific roles' simply started being used again (1990 on) out of total lack of imagination imposed precisely by the 'pragmatic' & 'corporatist' football of today. Let’s face it, Manolo. 'Football geniuses" haven't been happening from 1990 to now because the ‘harvest’ was mediochre (and this cyclically happens in the history of football). Besides the few ones that were able to make themselves noticed since 1990 (Romário, Baggio, Hagi, Rivaldo, Zidane, R9, Riquelme, Dinho, Henry, Messi, Kaká, Cronaldo) have been massacred by an era of explicit defensivism dictated by that same castrating corporatist spirit of the clubs. Which – I repeat – the present crisis is starting (as a matter of fact, has already started) to make crumble. 2010 South Africa & 2014 Brazil will witness its swan song. Stereotypes on top of stereotypes, Manolo. You can be sure that in the favelas of Brazil, Colombia, Nigeria, India, Argentina, Cameroon, Paraguay, Senegal, that’s precisely what’s still happening. And 70% of their players still come from the poorer neighborhoods. And that at an age in which the economic stability of the 90's & early 00's seems to fade away. And when Jericho’s walls fall they’ll be the first to invade the ruins of Old World (or to 'evade' them, for the ones who are already there). ___________________________________________________________________ PS: BTW, have you been aware of the offensive parafernalia displayed last week by Ronaldo & Fred in Rio and São Paulo Championships?... That's just the tip of the iceberg...
For those who twist their nose to the present world economic crisis, check recent views of Michel Platini, President of UEFA: The crisis is also...moral! And crumbling 'corporatism' immoral. ___________________________________________________________________
Well kingkong this supports my point entirely about how the days of finding "Pele's kicking balls made of socks" are gone, to which you responded - Actually, it's still happening, but the kids that have future potential are removed from these environments very early on, well before the age of 16, and become part of the global soccer factory. I am not making a moral opinion, and I wouldn't quite equate underage soccer players with child labor, but when it comes to the matter of producing "legends", I think it is this early indoctrination into tactical specialization that has been playing such a big role in discouraging the development of creative players.
As far as that 'tactical specialization' attempt - which I already tried to show you it's not a new fact in the history of football - it's not a bad thing in itself if done with a minimum criterium and at the right time. At least in Brazil though those kids are so many that there is no how to 'endoctrinate' more than 2 or 3 in 10. Most of then 'grow wild' & will keep playing football with 'sock' balls - and are just discovered later. There hundreds of examples like that (Marcelinho Carioca, Felipe, Pedrinho etc) all great players who never left Brazil & are totally unknown of the Europeans. When Euros come to Brz in order to buy kids, they often (as Platini points out very well) either take them too early to their continent where most of them vanish or they take just a few not so good ones leaving much talent behind. In doubt they'll take the already consecrated ones (Kaká, Robinho, Ronaldo, Pato, Romário) which is a more expensive but better option since they don't take many risks. The global crisis is ending up with that Euro-corporatist 'carnival' though - and through tortuous lines (it's true) the 'kidnapping' of adolescent players is coming to a term. With it foreign and premature endoctrination: a sure sign that soon (2010, 2014) new generations of 'geniuses' will be ready to be unleashed again.
I think one factor is the much higher media attention. With bi-weekly matches and extensive pay-tv coverage we are much quicker in seeing a great one declining or a great one rising. Ronaldo would be an example - he has scored 15 goals in world cup matches, which broke Gerd Müllers record, his 8 goals from 2002 is the most in a single tournament since 1970. But of course we have also seen his difficult times, injury problems, weight problems, the decline. Another result of the high media attention is that we get new heroes every year - in 2005, Ronaldinho was the new Pele, after his failure in the World Cup, all hail to the Italian defenders, then they grew old and now we have Messi and Ronaldo, and in 2 years, we will have the next hero. One recently retired player that is already a legend here in Germany and will probably replace Maier as our greatest keeper ever in polls within the next decade or so is Oliver Kahn. Of course in parts because he single handedly got us into the final 2002 and his outstanding performances for Bayern at the time. But also because of his presense, screaming at his defenders and the opponents strikers alike, "biting" Heiko Herrlich, aggressive interviews, and the rivalry with Jens Lehmann. And last but not least, while he did have some so-and-so years late in his career, in his last season, Bayern broke the record of the least goals against in 1 Bundesliga season, partly because Kahn had one last great year, which is what is fresh in the memory.
That's definitely a factor. Today's 'gladiators' have ten times more in a world-scale 'coliseum' the obligation to 'kill a lion per day'... In a way the old idols, it's true, 'hide' behind the 'smoke curtain' of foggy footage, incipient radio & TV broadcasting. However that 'smoke curtain', as Uamiranda pointed out, hides not only bad but also good aspects & can also be made out of wishful prejudice & ignorance ...
I know that will shock a lot of readers, but in my view it is the great men who play for the team who are truly great, and Pele was a fantastic individual with incredible skills. But with all his talents, he could never have organised the 1958 or 1962 World Cup winning teams the way that Didi did. That requires different qualities. Lisa11
Sure. Didi was fundamental to those teams. But Didi had been playing since the late 40's and 58 & 62 were his 2nd & 3rd Cups already as an 'old man'. In 58 Pelé was only 17. At that age let daddy take care of the house. In 1962 we can't judge his organizational abilities (he played just 1 1/2 games) but in Santos & Brazil up to 1970 he was undoubtedly the 'head' of the teams he played for.
One thing I was thinking about is this: is a player still a legend, even if there are few people still around that can remember watching him play? A player like Imre Schlosser, for example, how many people these days even know who he was? Even the greatest players of a generation gradually become forgotten with time. (Although I guess that will be less so with current players thanks to television).
If it were so, the legends would change every 100 years, but that's not what History (not only soccer) shows. Moreover, it's true that History is written through the eyes of the beholder, but once their (legends) legacy is documented they can be 'remembered' by anyone in future generations.
Yes, I think it's the case that a lot of the great players of the pre-World War II era are simly forgotten because of this. Look at players like Josef Bican or Poul Nielsen who had extremely impressive playing records but are nowhere near as well known as the likes of Pelé or Cruyff. The problem is though that while these players like Pelé inherit an almost mythical following, those who play today like Ronaldo will always be critizied as we have so much acess to matches and can easily pick out their faults and weaknesses. I think this is less the case with those like Pelé as there clearly isn't as much footage available to analyze his game as those players who play today and so it becomes harder to criticize him. Maybe Pelé is a bad example as he did in fact have a phenomenal record but I just think football fans have a tendancy to glorify the past and scrutinize the present.
This is shocking Seriously though, Pele was still a kid in the late 50s/early 60s. By WC 1970 (with him more mature) he was in more of a playmaking role, with Tostao and Jairzinho doing the bulk of the striking.
Don't worry about this user... I think it's a cheating. I've noticed before in the whole 'Beautiful Game Forum' that he copies previous posts from true users and re-posts as if it was him... In this case, his statement is an excerpt of comme's first post https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17101822
Should have said: 'some' football fans have a tendency to glorify the past and scrutinize the present. Others have exactly the opposite tendency: to underrate them simply because they played in the past & 'didn't benefit from 'modern' techniques & physical preparation methods'. Not to mention that modern 'scrutinizing' can be very selective & subjective too. As far as old footage is concerned, the best of Pelé (& I imagine of many others) was NOT even registered in film: what we have are not 'highlights' but simply and plainly what they could film. As far the 'zillions' of Bican's goals (although his great predicates - as much as flaws - must have been 'hidden' by poor footage too) they were scored mainly in regional tournaments during WWII in a Czchekoslovakia destroyed by the war & you must imagine the poor level of football his adversaries played under those conditions, what compromises the credibility & pertinence not only of his goals but also of the records furnished in such a turbulent period.
True, the exploits of the great players of the past are all documented somewhere, but it seems to me that as the first hand memory fades, the 'legend' diminishes. You have to be well-known to be a legend. In time, a player like a Imre Schlosser becomes a legend to football historians only.
Fairly agree... But much more than 'well-known', you must do something quite 'extraordinary' to be legendary...
Not only that. As we see a ‘legend’ cannot exist outside the limits of ‘time’ & ‘history’ (and by 'time' & 'history' we should understand here a time & a history 'with a certain duration'). Getting back to an old argument we've been entertained with, I’d say that 20 years in football is a good time range for ‘legends’ to start appearing because it’s generally the time span of a normal football player. So players who had their peak up to 1989 are the ones prone to become legends. More recent ones are still too close in time in order to become impersonal marble statues for us. A legend - along that period of time - requires not only elements of bewilderement but also of credibility. I.e, for a player to convincingly produce bewilderement during a certain period & become a legend that's gotta be achieved with competence &...time. It just doesn't happen out of thin air. That’s why I think that the thread title is somewhat out of focus & contradictory.
What a food for thought, AGAIN. Thanks a lot. As always not comments AGAINST present, but IN FAVOR, supposing people who LIVED (and eventually are still around, fortunately) were able to as all of us. Intergenerational collaboration, for me.
I'd say very few will become universal/global legends nowadays (from at least the 90's onwards) as something revolutionising is very difficult to come about in soccer at this time. I'd say a better question is: "What does it take to become a legend in a club/country?". And time doesn't have to be of the essence in this one. As a Finn myself I can only take a finnish example because I only truelly know the little soccer world of Finland: Jari Litmanen. He has already become a kind of god in Ajax. Just thought that this is a point needed to be considered/discussed
yes we do. but because of media coverage one year one player is considered a legend, the next year another. Zidane, Ronaldo, Messi, Kaka, Kahn among others are all time legends.
Kaka certainly has not yet achieved that status. Messi is playing at the level (and has been for the last 3 years) of a legend. Kaka has only really had one season to merit that sort of level. He's due to turn 28 in a couple of weeks. If he is to be considered one of the real greats (like a top 50 of all time player) he needs to step his level up considerably.
Well, currently both Christiano Ronaldo and Messi seem to be destined for a place among the all-time-greats. But then, 4 years ago I'd have said the same about Ronaldinho, and Ronaldo and Messi are even younger now than he was then... So there's still plenty of time for them to destroy their reputation.