Alright, I'm starting this off here because the Kenny Cooper thread had migrated quite solidly towards a discussion of Jonathon Spector and his prospects of breaking into the USA team (partly my fault). Many there commented there appears to be a long line of quality center backs through which Spector will have to fight to play for the USA. People like Pope, Bocanegra, Gibbs, Mastroeni, Berhalter, Califf, Sanneh, Garcia, and even Onyewu have been mentioned. If we're going this far, we might as well also include young Framk Simek into the equation... Anyone else? The first thing that comes to mind is that we have all these people trying to play in the center ... and almost no big prospects as outside backs. So, if any of these can move outside, that versatility will probably give them a huge leg up for team selection. Ok, so lets look at them. Pope: At 30, Eddie is still widely considered out best defender. I'm not 100% sure that after all his injuries that is as true as people think... but he's still darn good and I think his position in the center of defense is solid for the near future. Bocanegra is tall, strong, young (25), and still improving. He's recently been playing left back at Fulham and is instrumental in many of their attacks. He gets up the wing much better than I expected and I'd love to see him keep this position with the national team. Gibbs: At 24 is a young up and comer. He's looked darn good in some of his national team games. He's recently moved to Dallas which must help his national team chances. However lets not forget he got his shot while playing in lower divisions (Div 3 wasn't it) in Germany. Mastroeni: Yes I know he plays as a CB for Colorado, but I still see him as a defensive midfielder in the mold of Edgar Davids. He is very good at disrupting opposing offenses, but has shown me much more talent going forward than other defensive mids. At 27 he still has a good way to go in his career. Berhalter: I've always thought Gregg was a very solid player, though not a great one. He seems to get the job done and is apparently doing a solid job in Germany (Div 2). At 30, he has a few years left but I see him as a quality sub when others are out and we need the experience. Califf: 24 year old Danny Califf is a player I think will end up akin to Berhalter. Not really a star or player we want as a starter. He's been solid in MLS, but never moved to the top of the class in my book. That said, having a career with the national team akin to Berhalter is not a bad thing. Sanneh: Tony will be 33 in a month and is just coming back from a very bad injury. Accounts have shown he's played well in his return, but I think the age and timing of his injury mean we could be seeing the last of Tony in 2004 if we haven't already. If he does play more, I expect it to be as a right back rather than in the middle of defense. Garcia (age 25) came in with Bocanegra and has seemed to be always a step behind Carlos. That doesn't mean he's a bad player but it's hard when you are often thought of as the lesser of 2. Nick has also been solid in MLS, but hasn't had too many chances with the national team. Still a bit of an unknown. Agoos: Thought I'd throw him in here also, but at his age (36) I do'nt see him getting more than a handful of games. If he was world class his age wouldn't matter, but as it is I think there are plenty of others on here that can match him. Now for the largely unknown players. Onyewu: loved him in college, big strong fast and good handler of the ball. Owned by Metz but loaned to Belgium for the year. Done well apparently when he's played. Hopefully Metz stay up and bring him back to the team next year. Has some offensive skills and may be able to contribute as an outside back in the same manner of Bocanegra at Fulham. Spector is just 18 years old and playing well with the ManU youth and reserve teams. Recently named their Young Player of the Year which is no small feat for a club like ManU. All reports seem to love this guy, big strong, good head for the game, solid on the ball, and confident. If he can crack the ManU team within the next year, is it really a stretch to think he might be worth a look for the national team (however - I don't see him getting more than a call to camp unless he gets minutes with the first team). Simek is also 18 (I think) and the starting CB and often captain I think of the Arsenal reserves. I expect him to get loaned out next year or the following. Arsenal have a much worse record of promoting from their reserve squads than ManU which may put him at a disadvantage compared to Spector. However he is another to watch. I'll admit I know less about his game than I do the others.
Frank Simek is 20, not 18, and when mentioning young defenders, you totally forgtot about Liverpool's 6-3 20-year old American Zak Whitbread, not to mention the best rookie in MLS, 6-3 Chad Marshall.
Also, Arsenal will be promoting from their youth to the first team much more in the coming years than ManU. they're buidling a stadium and broke, while manu is spending on young players. Sanneh is a possibility for qualifiers, I'd think, but needn't be counted on for 06. That Garcia won't be central to our cup plans says a lot about the improving talent pool, as he would certainly have been 8 years ago. And I don't see Agoos getting a qualifier call this go round. Again, why, with all the depth, look to a player on the decline. As BA said during the last WC, it's a young man's game.
I did indeed forget about Whitbread and Marshall. Are both of these playing as center backs? They are both still young... Anyone have more info on them? Thanks. I'll try to edit my post to update Simek's age.
Are you sure he is the best rookie in MLS? Right now I would have to go with Jeff Parke over Marshall from what I have seen. But then again I haven't been able to see Marshall in that many games to have a good opinion on this matter. Going from the last pick in the draft to passing Tenywa Bonseu in the Metro's depth chart is nothing short of spectacular. Every game he has played at CB, he has looked more stable and confident then both Bonseu and Eddie Pope who regards him as the next Carlos Bocanegra. Everyone who has watched him play, including the Metro's coaching staff, say he is destined for a great future in professional soccer. Currently out with a hamstring strain, lets hope he can stay healthy and continue to develope as a player.
I dont buy that it depends on the talent of the youth. Man Utd will always lock up the best young players in the world they can get there hands on.
Just to keep my facts straight... Marshall is 20 years old and currnetly listed as a P40 player for Columbus (according to MLSnet). Since this is his rookie year it's hard to have hard facts, but it's good to see him step in and take control. Sounds similar to what Spector did with the ManU reserves. Another big boy huh... definitely one to watch. Crew webpage has him out with a separated shoulder... did this happen recently? If so... just another fun thing for the Crew. Parke is 22 or 23 years old (Metros and MLSnet pages show different birthdays for him) but at 6'1, 160 lbs seems relatively slight. Again I don't know much about him, but I'll add him to the list of possible future players. Now with some of these youngsters in MLS. Opinions??? Who (of the youngsters) has a better shot at a callup (even as a camp thing)... someone like Marshall who is playing first team ball in MLS? or a Simek/Spector who are on reserve teams but have made the bench for their first team? I'm guessing that right now... Spector, Simek, etc... have the upperhand at calls to camps because they won't be missing games during the summer.
I think I read on this board recently that Arsenal have been using Danny Karbiasayoon at Left Back instead of forward in youth and reserves?
Wow. this thread has gone on this long without somebody overreacting to the very mention of the name Agoos -- and taking said mention out of context and demanding he never see the field again? Who woulda thunk it? oh yeah ... good post wahoo. enjoyed it. but I disagree on one point ... I personally don't like Mastro at d-mid but loved what I saw of him at central defender. but that's just me.
Thought about Danny, but I was trying to keep this discussion in particular about those who are vying for spots in central defense. The list of high profile or promising youths who play on the flanks would be different... and sadly much smaller. Which is why when I look at these center backs... some like Bocanegra may do themselves a world of good by being able to play on the outside. That said... don't count out a similar thread in a week or so about outside backs... Ok, now I must get back to other topics for a while... [coffee talk voice] talk amongst yourselves [end voice]
Almost everyone I know disagrees with me about Mastroeni. So it's just maybe possible that I could potentially be wrong here. But I like him at Dmid and I started the thread so there! That said, is he a good enough center back to start rather than the others that are listed there? Could he be moved to midfield as there might be less competition there?
Not me! I love Mastro at Dmid because I think he links better than Armas or Mulrooney and has better ball skills. However, he had a flawless game against Mexico in central defense so he shouldn't be counted out in either spot really. I tend to favor playing a player at the MNT level where they play for their club team week in and week out. Therefore, I would keep Mastro in the CD role for the MNT since he's getting minutes for the Rapids there. I look forward to your wingback thread because we really lack depth there. With depth at central defense, could Arena be favoring a 3-5-2? It certainly plays more to our strengths.
You must be smoking crack. Gibbs played with the big boys in the Bundesliga. St. Pauli did fall off big time after that last season though.
Or he simply didn't know. Never knew that not being omniscient meant that you were on drugs. IIRC correctly Gibbs spent one season in BL1. I think it went something like this: BL2, BL1, BL2, BL3, BL3-MLS. I agree with Wahoo, he got chances mostly in lesser leagues
I just think that either O'Brien, Mulroony, and Reyna are better Central Middies. of course Mastroeni has World Cup experience at that position
I agree that we have a crop of Promising CBs. That does not mean we have a crop of CBs that are ready to play... Maturing the new CBs is, IMHO, the most critical task facing BA and Co. For Qualifiers... *I would like to see Gibbs get as many starts at CB as possible. He looks good in the games I've seen him play, but he also looks slight to me, not that a CB needs to be a hulk. If he's going to anchor the back line for years to come (with Boca) he'll need all the experience he can get. *If Boca gets called back from Fulham, play him on the left. *Play Pope on the right. *Use the other CB spot to give caps to other promising CB candidates. My favorites for the job are Pablo and Eddie Robinson. I also think Petke and Jolly should have gotten more of a look than they have, but I trust that BA has seen them plenty in MLS and has made his desicion. Ditto on Garcia. Berhalter was a fine fill-in, but now younger guys with a future are coming thru; and if BA was going to make Califf The Man, he'd have done so by now: those guys are done. I love Tony Sanneh but really, he's unlikely to available and deserving come Germany'06. So the bone of contention here is likely to be Pope and Boca at FB. Consider, if they are needed at CB they are already on the field. If we develop a quality pairing in the middle that doesn't involve them, when Pope is injured again (a virtual certainty sometime during the hex and WC), we'll have a quality option. And to get Convey, Donovan, and Beasley on the field at once either Reyna or O'Brien (if healthy) make spectacular R and L Back choices.
I think your four hands-down midfielder starters (when healthy) are Reyna, O'Brien, Donovan and Beasley. Where's Mastro fit in? Sure he's in the mix if it's a 3-5-2. But in a 4-4-2 I think he's better off as a central defender.
Going on a Guardian piece from last week. Arsenal right now has the youth crop to envy, and it looks like they're grooming first team replacements from the youth. On topic, mas wins balls. i don't care where he's on the field, but he needs to be there. I like him at dmid, better, but whatever.
I disagree Ringo. O'Brien is, in my book, a 20% chance to be healthy enough to play. Come on, look at this past season. I love OBrien, I really do...skillwise, our best, no doubt. I just can't bring myself to say that I'm counting on him being there for us. My midfield is Reyna and Mastro in a box at dmids, with Landon and DMB as the attacking mids. Mastro and Landon were both unbelievable against Mexico. I was there, so maybe I'm a bit biased.
What is this talk of displacing Eddie Pope in CB for Pablo??!! Let's get real. We have such short memories on this board. Pablo has one good game at CB for the nats against Mexico (a team we have owned in recent years anyway), and now we should push Pope out on the right? LOL reality check. I wouldn't take Mastro over Gibbs in the center, much less Pope. Could Mastro have held van Nistelrooy in check for 90 minutes? doubt it. van Nistelrooys size and strength would have eaten Mastro for dinner. remember, Mastro wasn't even on the squad against Mexico until Gibbs took a knock in the Burn game 4 days before the friendly. put Mastro out on the right, and i think we have a better lineup than if Pope is on the right and Mastro in the center. back on topic though ....... I do love Mastro as a player because he is very versatile. he can fill in at CB in the clutch, and he is a better defensive mid than the options (i know that is gonna start an argument). I also think that he could play RB if he got some reps back there. However, we still have depth at CB because Pope, Gibbs, Berhalter, and Boca have clearly shown they they can play the position. When you add in Onyewu in the mix after a cap or 2 this summer (which I expect him to get), there are several options for just 2 spots. We haven't even begun to talk about the young guys in England who are getting press. I don't think we have nearly as big of a problem with defenders as we have with someone up front putting the ball in the back of the net ............ the other guys net that is (if any of the Agoos guys are around!) LOL
well, speaking of short memories because I must have forgotten something or missed something so help me out here -- who said anything about moving eddie pope out? in a 4-4-2, which the u.s. often plays, you have TWO central defenders. i.e Eddie Pope AND SOMEONE ELSE. Yes, let's get real.
That's why i said 'when healthy'. I'm sorry I didn't consult your book in regards to his availibility, though.
yes, you did miss something. i wasn't responding to your post, but since you are intent on being wrong ......... go back and read diving headers post, and then you can come back and tell me i was right and you were wrong. I'll be waiting. thank you for playing.
Couple of points... Zak Whitbread plays Left Back for the Liverpool reserves. There was an entire feature article written by Mark Connelly on soccernet.com a while back. Worth the look-see if you are into knowing the details. Yes, I also read the story where Arsenal was converting Danny Karbassiyoon to a left back from his "prefered" striker position (a la Ashley Cole). Ergo, these two guys can be left out of this discussion on Center backs.