Junior is better than Bergkamp easily ! he had to disarm the super-skilled handers brazilian wingers like Joãozinho , Zé Sergio , Mario Sergio , Julio Cesar Uri.., Eder , Lico , Bufalo Gil ...etc..etc... Junior in decisive games overall he was much more decisive than Bergkamp
Not forgetting also that England (albeit a home team) narrowly lost to the Euro 96 winners, then went out in the 1998 World Cup to a high class Argentina, only after Beckham was sent off, and on penalties. Italy (albeit my tip at the time to win it: I remember there were letters underneath milk bottle tops at the time and if you collected all the letters of the eventual winners you could win some prize money, and we got close to Italy I think and I was thinking maybe we'll win something!) fell short at Euro 96 and also lost to the eventual winners of World Cup 1998, so overall didn't do better than England after WC94 and before Euro 2000. The Euro 96 squads weren't IMO massively apart in level (even in ball quality, though undoubtedly Italy had several top technicians in that era and like I say generally decent players skills wise for sure, and many top foreign players in Serie A too of course....but like I say England started to import those too and had other British/Irish players in the mix already: UEFA Euro 1996 squads - Wikipedia Manchester United, past their best (to that point) did make the CL semis in 1996/97 (and were expected to win vs Borussia Dortmund even though they didn't). I'm not really sure Middlesbrough's 1996/97 squad would be relegation candidates (or certainties anyway) in the current Premier League (though I know people's ideas do vary here and some will for sure see it different) 1996–97 Middlesbrough F.C. season - Wikipedia I feel like Newcastle 1994/95 could do better than 6th (given teams contending for that place currently) in the current Premier League (admittedly Newcastle went on to challenge for the title the following season though) - not to say that teams weren't less tactical and like I say there was a bit more space (and certainly more than in Serie A, even if the aforementioned Rui Costa could still pull off great passes, Savicevic could star, Zola had good seasons in Serie A too) for players between midfields and attacks in that PL era, for players like Bergkamp to use (but only because of being a very high level player): 1994–95 Newcastle United F.C. season - Wikipedia
I followed football back then, before advanced statistics took over the game, and what people used to say was that Bergkamp would be the best in the world if he scored more goals. He was seen as a football artist, but there was always the remark that 'he lacked goals' to be considered the best in the world.
You surely know your matter, but more than claiming that EPL could not hold a candle to Serie A in terms of highly skilled players, I was maintaing that english defenders would make life much easier compared to italian ones to technically gifted players for them to display their brilliance.
I don't know how WhoScored tallies throughball assists, but I am assuming from the video compilation of Lionel Messi assists from 2010/2011, that as long as the ball is grounded, bypasses at least one defender in a progressive manner, and sets up a teammate for a decent chance on goal, it does not seem to have the need to perfectly match the description of a picturesque defense-splitting pass through the middle to create a huge chance, to count as a through-ball assist. So if I use that rough guideline, I think Dennis Bergkamp may have around 50 throughball assists for Arsenal alone, based on the footage above. Maybe a bit more, depending on how generous we wish to be with the definition. What other contemporary EPL peers abused zone 14, and the limitations of the defenders of the times to amass such a figure? Even if the tally is context-dependent, I think it is extremely likely that he was an outlier within the context of his own era and league, not just more modern day comparisons with more easily gathered data-sets. The proportion of through-ball assists, and the level of numbers reached without much reliance on set-pieces or crosses, for me is remarkable. Perhaps explained more so by the singular nature of Dennis Bergkamp, rather than the EPL being a playground for any half-decent through-ball artist, because otherwise it would be easy to see such numbers from elsewhere. If we extend the conversation to more contemporary through-ball virtuosos to grace the EPL, this is their entire WhoScored collection of throughball assists that extends beyond matches played for EPL teams: Cesc Fabregas: 38 David Silva: 35 Kevin De Bruyne: 33 I personally think in terms of creating chances via through-balls, Dennis Bergkamp deserves his adulation as a virtuoso. Perhaps his most trademark gift of positively influencing the game-state with his first-touch, will be harder to measure, so I'll leave that for another day.
Yeah, and I think that's true to an extent (due to mixture of Italian defensive nous/prowess, plus less vacating of zone 14 or whatever we call it now by midfield players and probably more of a possession-based game by most Italian teams that could make the games a bit less dynamic/chaotic in transitions compared to PL). Maybe it wasn't night and day though, even for players like Baiano (more a star of Derby County than Fiorentina, but nevertheless not ineffective in Fiorentina's team - I haven't tried to verify Wikipedia's claim of him as top Serie A assister of 92/93, but his goal stats are quite similar with those two clubs - Eranio was for sure a more significant/integral player for Derby than Milan but that''s a bit apples and oranges in terms of relative team standing in the leagues - Genoa might be the more relevant team to compare with, where he was a star player). We didn't get to see how a prime Cantona for example could do in Serie A, or Ginola, but then we don't know how much a Del Piero or Totti would thrive in the PL (could the speed of play make it a bit harder in some particular aspects?). Veron was better in Serie A so there are some contrary examples, even if I don't think Shevchenko should be used as such (see how he did when he went back to Milan after Chelsea, or how he played vs Arsenal in 98/99....) - despite no apparent age-related reason I think there are extenuating circumstances for Bergkamp as Inter player though like I say (and it can also be true to some extent that he would always have entered a transition phase in his game style where he would adapt to using speed less and guile more, plus it just seems his form was sporadic in Serie A - some signs of high quality including vs AC Milan though - and his confidence and general comfort in Inter's tactical system wasn't high - he did take a few weeks to start playing well in England also, even though I know it can be said in a Dutch shirt he had good games and was still a key first choice player while at Inter - I do think comparing his WC94 and WC98 versions though that he was more refined in the latter, even if he dipped in effectiveness in the final games, somewhat in contrast to in 94).
AI's summary seems to suggest (linking to websites with definitions - Stats Perform i.e OPTA) that through balls can travel in the air somewhat, but that they don't include 'lofted passes' going over the heads of defenders to bypass them and find a targeted player (though in a wider discussion about incisive passes those could be introduced too of course): "According to Opta Event Definitions, a through ball is defined broadly as "a pass splitting the defence for a teammate to run on to." Whether it is an airborne chip or stays along the ground, if it meets the criteria of breaking the defensive line into space, it is logged as a through ball. Opta classifies passes into strict subsets based on height and intent, which clarifies your question: Through Ball: Can be either a grounded pass or a lofted ball. As long as it is an incisive pass played between or over the opposition's defensive line for an on-rushing teammate, it qualifies. Chipped Pass: A lofted ball intended for a teammate that must go over shoulder height. It is characterized by using the ball's elevation specifically to avoid opposition players rather than necessarily over the defenders' heads into the box. Launch: A long, high ball played blindly into a general area for players to chase, rather than an incisive "through" pass played directly into a runner's path. Therefore, a lofted pass that doesn't go high enough to clear defenders' heads but dips incisively behind them is still defined as a through ball. If it travels over the defenders' heads with altitude, it would typically fall into the "Chipped Pass" category" That would mean the first assist here (not in your previous collection posted of course with the timestamps from his assists video) was still not a through ball as such though (but a 'chipped pass') for example (but as an aside I think such passes were not unviable in Serie A - Rui Costa to Batistuta, Boban to Shevchenko, Pirlo to Baggio, previously Platini to Rossi or Maradona to Careca come to mind, even if generally speaking there wasn't so much space to exploit):
No, wait a minute.....@Letmepost I see the deeper dive answer is a bit clearer and different (and suggests Through Balls can also be Lofted Passes, not that they are in a seperate category that can't overlap): "Yes, the Opta definition of a through ball includes lofted passes, and it does not explicitly matter whether the ball goes above or below a defender's head. Opta strictly defines a through ball as "a pass splitting the defence for a teammate to run onto". The tracking system focuses entirely on the tactical outcome and intent of the pass rather than its exact trajectory, height, or mechanics. How Opta Categorises These Passes Opta uses a system of overlapping qualifiers added to a single pass event. A pass is evaluated based on several distinct criteria: The Core Event (Through Ball): If an open-play pass successfully cuts between or behind opposition players in the defensive line to find a teammate running into space, it is tagged as a through ball. The Height Qualifier (Chipped/Lofted): If that exact same pass is lifted over shoulder height to avoid an opponent, Opta will also assign a "Chipped Pass" qualifier to the event. Because these metrics stack, a low-lofted pass that curls around a defender's waist or a high-arching pass that sails over a defender's head will both be credited as a through ball, provided they split the defensive block for an on-rushing attacker. What Excludes a Pass from Being a Through Ball? Even if a pass goes over the top, Opta will not count it as a through ball if it falls into these categories: Launches: Long, high clearance-style balls kicked into a general zone for players to contest or chase. Crosses: Any intentional ball played from a wide position aiming to reach a teammate directly in front of the goal mouth. If you want to dive deeper, I can explain how Opta calculates Expected Assists (xA) for these types of progressive passes, or how their AI tracking models capture off-ball runs" Opta Event Definitions - Stats Perform (Press the + in the passes section to expand the definitions) I asked AI (not OPTA of course, but it uses their definitions and apparently totals even if sometimes AI seems to incorrectly 'find' things so maybe we need to double-check?) about De Bruyne's 2019/20 season regarding those categories: "During his historic 2019/20 Premier League campaign with Manchester City, Kevin De Bruyne recorded 32 through balls and 135 lofted passes. These specific metrics are captured by Opta and available via advanced data platforms like FBref: De Bruyne's 2019/20 Passing Blueprint Stat Category Count League Context Through Balls 32 Ranked #1 in the Premier League Lofted Passes (Passes in the Air) 135 Elite volume for an advanced midfielder Total Assists 20 Equalled the all-time Premier League single-season record Chances Created 136 Historic creative output Why these stats were so unique that year In the 2019/20 season, De Bruyne perfectly blended the two metrics. While pure full-backs like Trent Alexander-Arnold attempted more total "lofted passes" simply by hitting cross after cross, De Bruyne used his 135 lofted passes primarily for deep, looping crosses into the half-spaces or delicate "chips" into the box. Simultaneously, his 32 through balls showed how often he cut opposition midfields completely flat on the ground. Because Opta stacks qualifiers, several of those 32 through balls were actually categorized as both—lofted, delicate chips that went over a defender's waist or shoulder to find a teammate running behind the defensive line. Would you like to see how his 2019/20 creative metrics compare to his other peak playmaker seasons, or perhaps see how he stacked up against Trent Alexander-Arnold that year?"
Some stats here could be interesting or relevant maybe: noting that they are shown as totals though and Bergkamp missed games in 97/98 and 98/99, and then in 2000s seasons had various games being subbed on or off: Miscellaneous Premier League Stats | BigSoccer Forum Fouls won in danger area is an interesting one in the 1998/99 breakdown (OPTA don't provide that stat any more though I guess) - I would say that in general the more lax penalisation of fouls (awarding of yellow cards) would somewhat offset the Zone 14 factor though (as in when midfielders/defenders did get near to him they could commit more fouls - not to say it doesn't still happen in today's Premier League, and maybe it seems even more methodical whereby a player will 'take' a yellow card sometimes, knowing that he will stay on the pitch, and then other team-mates can do the same).
I used WhoScored descriptions of the assists, and Cesc Fabregas as the point of reference. All of the airborne through-balls below were classified as through-ball assists by WhoScored: Cesc Fabregas All 111 Assists from a Premier League Legend! Cesc Fabregas All 111 Assists from a Premier League Legend! Cesc Fabregas All 111 Assists from a Premier League Legend! Cesc Fabregas All 111 Assists from a Premier League Legend! Cesc Fabregas All 111 Assists from a Premier League Legend! The grounded progressive passes below were not classified as through-ball assists by WhoScored: Cesc Fabregas All 111 Assists from a Premier League Legend! Cesc Fabregas All 111 Assists from a Premier League Legend! Cesc Fabregas All 111 Assists from a Premier League Legend! Compared to my initial assumptions on what constitutes a through-ball, WhoScored was way more lenient with the airborne passes that floated past the defenders rather than by-passing them on the ground. Crosses from an angle of course were classified separately, so it needs to be more of a lob, rather than a whipped cross. WhoScored also seemed to be more strict in what constitutes a large enough chance, and maybe the proximity of the defensive structure that the pass by-passes. So some of the passes I personally thought were through-balls might just be progressive passes according to WhoScored. So my personal tally for Dennis Bergkamp most likely needs to be redone, before making comparisons with players tallied by WhoScored standards.
Dennis Bergkamp's lobbed through-ball assists that I did not initally include in my rough 50 through-ball estimation tally for Arsenal: Arsenal Legends: Dennis Bergkamp - All 116 Assists HD Arsenal Legends: Dennis Bergkamp - All 116 Assists HD Arsenal Legends: Dennis Bergkamp - All 116 Assists HD Arsenal Legends: Dennis Bergkamp - All 116 Assists HD Arsenal Legends: Dennis Bergkamp - All 116 Assists HD I think despite the added goals, the tally might not rise by much, or perhaps even dip a bit, because I think I may have been a tad generous with any progressive passes that by-passed a defender.
Top 3 greatest hattricks in premier league history 1.) Andrey Arshavin vs Liverpool 2008/09 Andrey Arshavin and the four goals at Anfield that had Arsenal fans purring 2.)Dennis Bergkamp vs Leicester City 1997/98 When Dennis Bergkamp finished first, second and third in the August '97 goal of the month competition 3.)Luis Suarez 2013/14 vs Norwich City Suarez hat-trick vs Norwich in 2013 tops Sky's PL performances of the decade | All Football For one day in his life in April 2009 Andrey Arshavin looked like the GOAT. He scored four open play goals in a single match against Liverpool at Anfield. For context, this was the same Liverpool side that thrashed Real Madrid 5-0 on aggregate in February/March 2009 and destroyed Manchester United 4-1 at Old Trafford in March 2009.
In case there are arguments that Dennis Bergkamp's creative majesty, especially within the realm of through-balls in pockets of spaces he often created by himself (in terms of the added value he brought via ball manipulation in tight spaces), being contextually dependent on the time-frame or locally-fixed idiosyncracies of the EPL, I wanted to look into the through-ball assists he made for the Dutch national team. I used the site below, and YouTube for reference. Alle assists per interland van het Nederlands Elftal sinds 1905 Dennis Bergkamp's through-ball assists in international matches: The Netherlands - Turkey 3 / 1 (World Cup 94 Qualifier: Feb / 24 / 1993) - YouTube The Netherlands - Hungary 7 / 1 (Friendly: June / 1 / 1994) The Netherlands - Canada 3 / 0 (Friendly: June / 12 / 1994) (perhaps this is a mere progressive pass due to the extra leg-work Marc Overmars had to do after receiving the ball) The Netherlands - Canada 3 / 0 (Friendly: June / 12 / 1994) The Netherlands - China 2 / 0 (Friendly: May / 29 / 1996) (perhaps one could argue this is a mere progressive pass) The Ntherlands - Ireland 3 / 1 (Friendly: June / 4 / 1996) (perhaps this is a cross, but it looks more like a lobbed through-ball to me) The Ntherlands - Ireland 3 / 1 (Friendly: June / 4 / 1996) EURO ’96 highlights: England 4-1 Netherlands 1997 (September 6) Holland 3-Belgium 1 (World Cup qualifier).mpg (perhaps one could argue this is a mere progressive pass) Netherlands 2-2 Mexico | 1998 World Cup | Match Highlights EURO 2000 highlights: France 2-3 Netherlands Netherlands 6 x 1 Yugoslavia (Hat-trick of Kluivert) ● UEFA Euro 2000 Extended Goals & Highlights That's maybe 12 through-ball assists (probably less, depending on how strict I should be to adhere to WhoScored standards) out of his 23 OPTA standard-assists for Netherlands. For pretty much every tally, there seems to be around half of his total assists resulting from through-balls. A proportion that probably is not too common amongst prolific creatives. Given his total playtime of 6,351 minutes for his national team, that is roughly 0.17 throughball-assists per 90 minutes. Of course, I assume his ratio will drop once we include his Inter Milan numbers. I am not sure how he played at Ajax, nor do I have access to his assists statistics and some sort of video compilation for them, during his stay there. If he retains exactly the same level of throughball-assist productivity per 90 minutes (for both the national team, and for Arsenal), during his 29,875 minutes of playtime for Arsenal, that should result in him having somewhere in the region of 56 throughball-assists, a figure not too far distant from my initial tally based on footage review of his 116 assists. So for Arsenal and Netherlands, he seems to be quite prolific as a throughball-assist provider. For reference, these are some of the throughball-assists per 90 minutes for the following select modern-day players known for their throughball prowess (WhoScored career numbers): Lionel Messi: 0.15 throughball-assists per 90 minutes Cesc Fabregas: 0.12 throughball-assists per 90 minutes Xavi: 0.12 throughball-assists per 90 minutes Lamine Yamal: 0.09 throughball-assists per 90 minutes David Silva: 0.08 throughball-assists per 90 minutes Kevin De Bruyne: 0.07 throughball-assists per 90 minutes At the very least, I think Dennis Bergkamp was an all-time great in terms of providing assists via throughballs, a metric often associated with virtuosos blessed with vision. The statistical description fits the profile. Of course, I realize the numbers represented here need more thorough review for his overall career, and more alignment with the WhoScored criteria for more conservative/accurate tallying of the throughball assists, but I think this is about the limit for me.