I just highlighted 4 more vague terms in your useless definition. I understand that there's got to be some subjectivity here, but really, you can't solve an algebra problem with 4 variables. A definition I like is, a player who is good enough to start or be a key sub for a team in the knockout rounds of the CL. You can tighten that up either by raising the level of the team (semifinals of the CL) or the level of the player (be a "written in ink" starter). Anyway, that's the kind of definition I'm looking for. Not one which raises more questions than it answers.
And it should be fought, because when we accept that mentality, we don't appreciate what we really have.[/QUOTE] 1. I want everyone to know that Metrogo and I have rarely ever seen eye to eye on these boards. We have butted heads on many occasions on the Metro boards. We raely ever agree. 2. He is spot on. This is not the eighties. Were are not producing hapless players we are contually producing some very competent professionals who only gte better when the go overseas. Look at the goal Beas scored in the chamions league? Look at the of a ball going away from his body? Players like Eddie Johnson who develop more aspects to their game in spite of what they have been taught as youngsters. Players like justin mapp who is probably the most talented young american palyer now but just needs to have the right attitude instilled. We don't need to be hyping these players. Hopefully the people who make the decsions don't have this same attitude. I can now leave this thread knowing I was wrong and that there are people with their eyes open in here.
I think thats the general definition we use in this forum for a World-Class player. Its why I think most people would agree that a healthy John O'Brien is the only world class player we have right now with Donovan coming close, and why we're all so excited by DaMarcus Beasley these days...and by the news that Landon is returning to Leverkusen. Also one thing to add, this just PROVES that your world-class. I think you can be a world-class player without proving it in Europe. This is just an indicator
amazing how well $30 works as a Bullsh!t filter. its not amaxing the only person here who agrees with you is Metrogo. I'm sure a certain other poster would agree with you to. That'd be just the nail in your coffin however.
Don't get me wrong at all. I'm not saying that Dempsey is the same caliber of athlete as Moss. I just thought the comparrison between the two in one aspect worked. Then again, I bet Clint Dempsey goes across the middle a heck of a lot often than Moss does.
Just to clarify...it's not *does* play such a role, it's *could.* So I'd include a healthy Reyna, Pope from last year, Landon, and DMB. (Just field players here.) I think those are pretty non-controversial. But the number of players with a real shot at being at this level in 2 seasons is extraordinary...Gaven, Adu, Dempsey, Boca, EJ, Gooch. Of course, not all of those players will make the step(s) forward--we all would have included Convey on a list like this in 2002--but I think in 2006 the Nats will have half its field players qualify as "world class."
I think you could go a step further and say that in 2006 we could have Gaven, Adu, Dempsey, Boca, EJ, Gooch, Landon, DMB, Reyna, AND Spector along with possibly Martino, Buddle, Eskandarian, Chad Marshall. Any of theses last four could make the jump across the pond this winter, you never know. If they do, they have a chance of making the list of world class players. Spector is well on his way, but not there yet, of course. If he does move to another EPL team like West Brom and starts all next year then perhaps he can be added. Lets say one of the 4 makes it by 2006, and Spector makes it, then we have 11 world class field players. Of coure, Adu, Dempsey, Gaven, Gooch, and EJ are all questionable, but I'd say they are likely to make it in some form or another.
LOL...fvkcing brilliant!! This is some good reading boys... I must say. I agree that discovery soccer in the 70's, we had NONE of these example athletes from the States to follow as budding young players. Now look. This is a time to relish my friends. The future evolves and we are turning a new page in soccer nearly every 4-5 years on the international scene it seems. Our players are now getting a fair look from part of the world that wouldn't dare to have looked at US talent before. Sit back and just enjoy watching it all unfold. I think we could all agree that the prospects are looking good for our nation in the next two WC's.
The question that most interests me with this stuff is..... Where does MLS draw the line? My belief is that there is room for one more Major soccer league. I would think that MLS, in order to insure its survival, needs to be it. Soooo eventually they are gonna have to pony up some more cash to keep the better homegrown players and maybe even bring in some guys. I don't know, but the next 5-6 years seem to be really critical for MLS in terms of positioning. Thinking it out, MLS could realistically lose any young player who plays well for the senior national team. Over the next 5-6 years, this could include any or ALL of the players mentioned in this thread so far.
and he can be used as a warning for Dempsey. He got brought over from England and did so poorly that he didn't even make the game day roster. You can get an oppurtunity to succeed in Europe, but you gotta bring it. Or it could put you in a bad position. So if Clint does earn that contract from Feyenoors (which would the Eriedivise pretty interesting BTW), he better hope that his form sticks with him - or do something to make sure it doesn't go away
True, but Convey never scored seven goals or 15 points in a season while he was here. He never really had a scoring touch to lose.
I gotta put a plug in for Rommul. I don't want to be presumptuous and speak for him, but in reading these threads, I conclude that many posters are not setting their standards high enough. World class means that some kid in Italy, Belgium or England is willing to fork over a few euros in order to get a jersey with the name Adu or Spector or Beasley or ------. But right now I don't think the kids are buying those jerseys, but they're probably buying Robben, Kaka and a few others. We do have players playing at a fairly high international level, but they're not world class stars. Whether any of them will ever reach that level remains to be seen. But even with that understanding, I'm still excited about the continuing development of our talent pool.
Dave, I don't know what you mean by extraordinary. If you mean compared to the US in the past, then fine. But the number of players in Argentina who come up and are as good or better than these players at their age numbers probably in the few dozen range. I mean, these players you mention are good players. But I'm willing to wager that none become world class. Guys like this come up in African and SA, esp Arg and Brazil all the time and never become world class. The odds are long on those. Look, I like Eddie Gaven, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were 300 or so Eddie Gavens around the world right now. And 10 will become world class. The odds are against it. As for Carlos Bocanegra, I mean please. He's a good solid player, but "become world class". He's older than Ashley Cole, I believe, and you simply cannot compare the two. Boca is not going to be a world class defender. And this is what's wrong with this whole way of thinking. We should be celebrating Boca's success for as far as he (and the US) has come. We should Not be exaggerating his talent, and making the whole thing just stupid.
Yes, that's what I meant. Plus, the fact that Brazil's 8th best striker could start for just about anyone else doesn't do them any good. We're close to being able to field 11 world class (by my definition, remember) or near-world class players. Which means we would have a legit chance to win the whole thing. Not a *good* chance, but a legit chance. An England-type chance. That's an exciting possibility. It would not surprise me if he gets to the point where you look at him and say, he could be the first defensive sub for Team X in the knockout stages of the CL. How far he is, now, from being that for a Liverpool? I left out Cherundolo...if he goes to Schalke and they have a good year and then a good CL group stage, Steve will be a world class player. Now, in order for all 3 of those things to happen, he'll have to improve. But that's sorta the point.
Hmm. Feyenoord's site said he was "primarily known for his goalscoring." I would take a middle gorund and say he was a versatile midfielder. And scoring 7 goals in your rookie year in by far the most defensive year the league has had tells me he might be good at it. (Heck, Eddie Johnson only scored 12, and that tied the league lead).
This is an excellent point that needs to be heard. I've been on soccer boards for over 8 years now (BS, SAG before BS was born, and a couple before SAG) and have read about the next "so and so" playing in Europe and how they were going to be great. Almost all of these hyped players were disappointments. In the 90's I got very excited about a bunch of individual players thinking how they might turn out and help the Nats. I just don't get that excited anymore. Lots of these prospects are going to fail. The impressive thing is that the US is producing more and more very good players every year, and how the skill level rises by leaps and bounds over time. It's much more promising now because it's easier to find one or 2 great players out of 30 or 40 good prosects, than it was to find one or two out of 5. I know this is Yanks Abroad and will always be a little more of a "cheerleader" forum. I can deal with that. Sometimes it's a bit over the top but it's what I expect. Things are getting better but the US still has a long way to go. As for Dempsey. He impressed me on Wed. I thought he was a good player and that he should have started that game. But I wondered what his best position will be. Training with Feyenoord can only help.
Not to be a smartass but you can solve an algebra equation with 4 variables. Anyway, I think the term world class is really subjective and I don't think that anyone can really come up with a really objective definition of what world class means. My definition of World class is a player that could conceivably start and contribute to almost any team in the world. however, your definition seems to make sense though.
I kind if have the same concern, particularly with regards to a player who has only played 1 year in the league. If we're going to start losing our best talent after one season, the league is going to suffer tremendously. But the league isn't set up to draw that line right now. For the moment, Bocanegra's the only field player to go over there from MLS and establish himself as a starter in a top league. Beasley's close to doing so, but is still basically 2nd choice. MLS has some time to come up with a long term success plan but they need to look at this issue now so they can handle it if and when it comes to a head.
Todays players are really the first generation of American developed pro's. Landon and Damarcus are the first class from Bradenton when the USSF and MLS started getting serious. How I judge our players and potential is that we are constantly improving and developing better players, that culture of continuous improvement will do us well in the long run. I think soccer is maybe a bit too subjective. I think there are some very simple stats that should be compiled and well known, pass completion rate, touches, turnovers won/lost, chances created, succesful/unsuccesful runs, headers won/lost, clearances. My impression is that Cesc is very compossed and skilled but I've not seen him do anything that I haven't seen Gaven do, in fact I've seen more impressive dribbling from Eddie than Cesc, although from a bigger sample size. The differnce for me is that Cesc doesn't make some of the mistakes Eddie makes and is doing that at a higher level. Cesc has a much better supporting cast and isn't a player that opposing coaches single out but his game leads me to believe that wouldn't hurt him that much. Eddie on the other hand is a major driving force for the Metro's attack and is allowed to take chances and make mistakes that Cesc couldn't get away with, from his performances this year this strategy and series of learning experiences has payed off and will produce a better player than if he had been reigned in. Overall this is just my opinion from my experience with few facts to back it up. I don't know if this thread title has been changed but I have no problem with it, there's a question mark what's the problem? If Feyenoord bring the cash, 2.5 million plus, and Dempsey wants to go I say let him but maybe wait for the begining of next season.
Allosm, the US is attracting better and better athletes to the sport who get a much improved coaching by the same age that the players 15 years ago. Those who go to Europe frequently go as an invite or a prized transfer and not as beggars looking for charity. The post-Bosman Euro landscape is different as well. Clubs like Anderlecht, Rangers, Dynamo Kiev and Ajax no longer dominate the international competition and the world football settled into an international hierarchy where the US has almost a predetermined jump-in spot. All of this bodes well for the development of the game not only in the US but in Africa and Asia as well. Who would have thunk that Japan can be ranked higher than Germany? And, if this is now the New Order of soccer, then why should the US be left behind?
Sorry, Arjen Robben references should be made in the same vein as Michael Jordan's ones ... as in, "Player X can perhaps someday be looked as AR/MJ type of a contributor." None of the three clubs you have mentioned has a no-name/no-talent roster. I saw it in the old Soviet first division more or less. It wasn't pretty. Yes, by definition, because he won't go to a G-14 club ... yet. Though, here's hoping that he'll be greeted Ruudly at Feyenoord.