No that is how all teams do talent evaluation. There is a reaosn many of the best Brazilian players increase in value after they play in the smaller leagues of europe like France and Holland. There are literally dozens of player who have been well regarded in Brazil and other leagues (Ricardihno and Jardel come quickly to mind) who have not worked out in europe simply because the Brazilian league is so looted that it is hard to make an objective judgement of talent level. Even the best players like Okocha had to first play in places like Trukey and Frnace before moving to the big leagues. This is the reaosn why you see players like Fabiano going to small leagues like Portugal. Barca wanted him, but they weren't willing to take the monetary risk on a player who is unproven in european competition. They would rather go with the player who is proven in europe. And lets not forget they didn't start pursuing Etoo until after they couldn't land Fabiano. I make arguments based on months of reading this forum. Thye may not be relevant to this thread but they are relevant to this forum. I think it just means I have no place in this forum. I like to see things hashed out and always reading the psoitive with the negatives almost always ignored frnakly bores me. Hard to ignore it when 90% of the content is simply that. Look at the title of this thread. And yes america I am aperson who asks questions and is not afraid to go against the grain and say exactly what he feels. I think that does ondeed make me a dick.
I'm just curious how you are making a definitive comparison with two completely separate models. It seems like there are so many holes in your argument it just isn't worth making, and that goes for both sides of the argument. Is Gaven "better" than Cesc? I don't know, and neither do any of you. As for Clint at Feyenoord, hooray. What makes Clint a special player? When he's at his best (which he wasn't against Jamaica), his first touch is outstanding. He has a Randy Moss-like ability to have his attention completely focused somewhere else while the ball is making its way to his feet. It's kind of spooky sometimes. I don't remember who the opponent was, but I remember being dumbfounded when Dempsey was on the left touchline, and Ralston sent a switching ball all the way from the right. Clint watched the ball about halfway through the air, and then he picked up his head and eyes and looked forward. Then while he was still looking forward, nowhere near the ball, he trapped the ball perfectly with his first touch, then sent a through ball to a forward with his second. To a common observer, that play probably wouldn't have even registered. No goal was scored, nothing came of it. But I just sat there thinking, "WTF?" Us mere mortals, when we did play, were required to watch a ball like that all the way to our feet. And even then trapping a long, driven cross could be difficult. It just simply wouldn't have occured to me to not bother watching the ball 30 yards into the cross. Crazy.
That's just way to logical for this forum. Please take that elsewhere if you don't mind I think you have once again broken the logic rule, but damn your assessment is spot on. The kid does not play like most of the guys in MLS, he has that quality to make plays like that and yet look casual in doing it. I think Feyenoord is looking to improve their team and with Ono's future in doubt, as well as Thomas Buffel's (sometimes plays as an Attacking Mid) probably move - Dempsey could get the opportunity rather quickly.
I was talking to a highschool coach who sent his son to Pitt to play soccer the other day. He watches a ton of soccer and still coaches alot. He was telling me that the biggest difference between the levels of soccer, is not the ability a player brings to the ball, but at the speed they execute. Especially at the highest levels. At those levels, any player can hit picture perfect crosses and nutmeg standing defenders and juggle balls. But not just any player can execute fast enough to pull it off in a game. I think this example is a PERFECT example of what he was talking about.
This is exhibit A in my argument. Is he playing as well as Wyane Rooney who is 18? Is he playing as well as Arjen Robben who is 20? Is he playing as well as Jose Reyes who is 21? Is he playing as well as Adriano who is 22? All these young players seem to player in higher level leagues than Beasely. Is what he is doing at PSV in any way comparable? I am sure you do. Why can't we just be happy our players are doing well why do we have to blow everthing out of prorportion? Never mind. I am sure the answer I will get is "Nothing is being blown out of proportion its all in your head."
By this criteria, Gaven is better than Cesc. His relative stature w/in the Metrostars is much greater than Cesc's w/ Arsenal. That gap between being a leader and midfield lynchpin (Gaven) and regular squad player (Cesc) more than compensates for the gap in quality between Metro & Arsenal. I am sure that is not what you meant. I could not be more excited for Clint. This would be perfect for me. He could learn alot from Ruud G. and it would only help the USMNT & Feyenoord.
Thats excellent news for those players and we should be proud of the. But that still doesn't qualify these players as being world class. Only in this forum do people think the jersey you wear is what signifies that you are world class. I seem to recall the Spector hype machine being in fulls wing a few months ago but has wound down considerably. Playing in that company makes you a special player it doesn't automatically make you world class.
I dunno, Nutmeg ... when I was a kiddie back in the 70s, we were always taught to look up and around and never at the ball. You were supposed to dribble without looking at your feet. At least, that was the way in Europe. "Looking the ball in" is more of an American football thing to me. BTW, hockey players are instilled the same thing - you never look down at the puck or you'd get a bejesus drilled out of you on the ice.
I am willing to give it all the time in the world. I don't really care how long it takes. I just want to be able to discuss our players with having to wade trhough all the bluster. Seeing statements like "Beasely is playing as well as any young player in the world ." makes that hard to do.
Uh I seem to recall naming at least two african nations specifically as well as one european nation whom I thnik we lag behind. But what the heck you have an argument to make why bother with the facts. BTW Africa has over 50 states. There go those pesky facts again.
Thank you for this Rommul. And Casper, the problem with over the top delusional optimism shown by Apoo and a few others is that it demeans how far we've actually, in reality, come. Let's enjoy it for what it is. 10 years ago, we didn't dare dream of placing young Americans at clubs like PSV, and now, we have young DeMarcus in the mix there and challenging for a spot. And a few others. That's terriffic. He is not, however, as great as any 22 year old in the world, as Apoo says. Now sure, it's a little unfair because I'm singling our Apoo and he's not the average poster on these boards. Indeed, he might very well be the stupidest. But his delusion and his overestimation of american footballing talent is not all that unusual on these boards. And it should be fought, because when we accept that mentality, we don't appreciate what we really have.
Well I guess I jumped the gun on judgement of this thread. The first post said training and had no reference to a "trial". My bad. So does anyone know if our super prospect known as Eddie Johnson/Gaven/Donovan/Freddy/Dempsey/Eskia/Szetela been sold to ManU/PSV/Bareclona/Arsenal/Real super euro club yet?
Yes but as I recall neither these players is yet world class they are good prospects to be sure. Frddy may be one day. But he is not yet. I can go to england and find you 15 year olds who are being bidded for by the five biggest clubs in london and the may not be world class. Bidding for youth players and bidding for adult is a whole different ball game. At the youth level teams go for quantity and try to cast the widest net. When teams come out and start fighting over our best talent we may have an argument but not now.
I remember him doing something like this too. It was in the defensive end of the field and was a completely routine play. He was recieving the ball on a switch and he made this little move and touch with the ball that was almost simultaneous with him immediately looking up field and going forward with the ball. I can't even describe it really other than that he recieved the ball right at his feet, protected it with his body and immediately went forward. It was a completely sublime little thing but I remember at the time thinking, 'whoa.' There's an element this this kid's game that can easily go unnoticed but it's clearly special and clearly there. It combines a level of physicality and vision that I don't think a lot of our players posses. Whether or not that one aspect of his game translates him turning into a great player is another thing. However, the kid went from draftee, to starter, to Rookie of the Year, to National Team call up within the space of nince months. That's not too shabby. I like the comparrison with Moss, because both him and Moss both seem to glide through tight spaces with unreal ease.
Check RedCafe if you don't want believe the YA Spector hype. There are a couple of threads going right now in which numerous posters are all for selling O'Shea and/or Silvestre in order to get Spector on the pitch. The only reason Spector hasn't been mentioned on YA as much is that he hasn't been doing anything newsworthy recently (until the WBA rumor and the USMNT cap). It certainly isn't because we've changed our minds on this kid.
actually I said any young player at that level. Thyat level being Champion's league. Rooney had on huge game, and then an average game. So far, Beaser has been a good player for his team during the tournament, and has a game-winning goal at that level. He also earned praise from many European columnists, some having called him an excellent young player who playing as well as any other young player. Just which other young players have outplayed Beaser at Champion's legaue? And by what margin? does any other young player blow Beasley out of the water in Champion's League play? keep twisting words and contradicting yourself. this is actually fun. Your just a troll who enjoys demeaning players that USA fans like. Simple as that
Sure, in general, you don't have tunnel vision on the ball. Europe or the US, you should be able to trap a close-quarter pass, dribble, pass, shoot, etc without ever looking at the ball (and BTW, a lot of MLS players struggle to do even that). That's not what I am talking about. The play that I described isn't typical at any level. That's world class stuff. Dempsey has a grace around the ball that isn't common of a lot of US players. So forgive us for going overboard - which we probably are. I am not nearly as excited about this one kid - Clint Dempsey - having these types of skills, as I am about a number of kids who have similar qualities, and there seems to be incrementally more of them every year. That's good news for US Soccer fans.
I would say that if you are FAIR..... and compare apples to apples (or at least applesauce) you would find that DaMarcus IS doing as well as the players you mention. Remember this is his first year (not even 15 matches in IIRC) 1000 miles away from home in a TOTALLY different continent and still doing well. In fact PSV may be a good example of how we can't REALLY say what the level is of MLS play. Here is a side (PSV) with basically no name guys from around the world in a reasonably weak league, and they are top of the heap. The only reason PSV is getting recongnized as being as good as they are is because of the CL, where they get to REGULARLY play against their would-be competition. For that matter, Porto and Monaco could be placed in the same regard. MLS, and American sides in general, have a unique playing style that I haven't seen anywhere else on the planet. It is power-pace-discipline with an odd Latin influence. Then, of course, there is that mentality that allows the word "die" to be used only in reference to the opposition. You just CAN NOT say that you know for certain that ANYBODY could beat say K.C. for instance in any sort of series of games that count. I understand your argument Rommul, and I think it would be fun to discuss it. Just try not to flame out anyone who disagrees with you. RE: Dempsey. I think he will do well wherever he goes. And Feyenoord is as good a place as any.
now your changing your arguement. Of course I can understand why you make this distinction, you see no difference in a world-class player and a world-class talent
I really don't think you or anybody else is interested in comparing soccer resumes. Let's stick to issues, please.