Defending with seven

ive seen you posting about this and i think its straight up nuts.

ok, back 5, say steffen, yedlin, miazga, brooks, dest.

we are currently playing roughly a 4-3-3 (which i what id do as well considering the pool). for me that three wold ideally be adams, mckennie and pomykal. that all fits your mold, but its pretty defensive/not very offensive (no pun intended) to me- its simply a matter of what i think our best players are. adams is our only true 6, mckennie and pomykal, while not identical players by any means are both 8s.

we dont have any 10s. pulisic there? eh, im not saying it cant work but i wouldnt do it. mostly cause hes a winger. but mihilovic doesnt do anything for me, aaronson im pretty wait and see, ledesma isnt there yet (but by far the most potential).

morales can back up at the 6 and i guess the 8 but hes pretty crap on the ball. crap recieving and playing the ball, i should say. i like his toughness but he gives nothing offensively. roldan is depth, but not depth id want to ever use. an acceptable 6th cm on a roster. lletget and holmes are the two id primarily use backing up/rotating/injury replacements for the two 8s...

but the midfield should be a 6 and two 8s, cause thats what we have. its ridiculous to think of what weve been doing as having 2 attacking mids. lletget is by far the most offensive minded (and capable) of the 8s we have.

problem being berhalter wants a completely defenseless "6" and tries to tell us mckennie or whoever are attacking mids.

so again, that gets close to your quota and is close to overly defensive to me.

my front 3 would be pulisic and weah on the wings, theoretically sarge in the middle. morris is obviously in the mix there, im a big fan of arriola, i like boyd but hes trying to break bobby woods bad form/still getting time record or something, hes a mess.

so your plan would dictate i have to go arriola, right? that would get me at the magic number of strong defensive players? nah man, not if pulisic, weah and morris are available.

you know we have to score right?

when you talk about this i just picture cannon and (best case) robinson at fb with yedlin and dest as wingers? or lets say dest and arriola.

again- that just seems nuts to me, for many, many reasons.

i think this is a lot like the "overrating" of a morales- seeing bradley and trapp and roldan, not resistance at all in the midfield (certainly no offense)- so while i get that hes a usable player- people are kinda driven crazy by how little sense the way berhalter sets us up (and his selections) they think alfredo morales is the answer.

this feels a lot like that. if/when we actually put adams on top of our backline we dont have to use the other two spots covering for a defenseless, well past his sell by sate bradley. we can actually use wings that get forward, rather than become 3rd cbs, or move into the middle to add a THIRD player covering for bradley.

the thought of playing anyone other than mexico (where i still wouldnt put my whole damn team behind the ball) in concacaf with 7 defensive players is freaking embarrassing, and pretty ridiculous. i think your brain is just (super) overreacting to the hot mess berhalter has made us/wants us to be.

 

a big part of our giving up goals is having bradley on the field, and every ripple that creates- leaving our cbs with zero cover in every match, but against canada was primarily roldan starting to help cover for bradley. that both doesnt help a whole damn lot and it only further hurts our ability to build any attack at all.

the next ripple after roldan is pulisic being completely isolated while three and four canadien players collapse on him every time the ball accidentally got that far up field.

a 4-4-2 (or frankly any two forward setup) is kind of a non-starter for me. we barely have 1 forward (an uninjured jozy/not fully cooked sarge) who the hell are we going to waste that second spot on?

as for wingers defending i think thats more an issue of effort (just being there). yeah, if we are in some match where we are genuinely outgunned (as opposed to our many, many berhalter-related, self-inflicted injuries) arriolas an option there. but mexico is the only team that should be CLOSE to having to consider that with.

i go back to just being horribly mismanaged and team selection. lletget was sitting on the bench watching roldan both not offering any discernable defensive help and certainly nothing the other way (or keeping neutral possession, for that matter). even allowing the same goals he could have made a huge difference simply by pulisic being draped by only two defenders at a time, and some realistic chance we could have advanced the ball even a little.

but back to forwards for a minute- history doesnt have a whole lot to do with whats going on now, and now we cant freaking score. so why not address that by playing a minimum of 8 offensive-minded players?

you see what im saying? we need a balance in the team, and i just think youre going too far in one direction. we are doing this to ourselves with how we play (both formation-wise and tactically) and who we are playing (bradley, trapp, yueill- any deep lying "playmaker" with zero defensive capabilities/responsibilities. BY DESIGN).

so ill put it in a more friendly way (im glad you took me calling your plan nuts as i intended it )- would your idea be better than what berhalters going? hell yeah, man.

but actually good? eh, im just not on board for this one.

 

Defending with 11 behind the ball doesn’t do anything if there’s no outlet for the pressure.

At a minimum, there needs to be someone to hold up the ball and someone fast enough to exploit the space.

 

using two spots on forwards we dont have is a non-starter (currently). the overall 7 defenders is too far in one direction (imo).

two separate thoughts.

 

Fun game!

Finish this sentence.

 

I mean, at this point I'd happily take a counterattack+setpiece 442 empty bucket a la Bob Bradley. Pulisic and Morris wide in the Donovan/Dempsey midfield roles. Sargent creating "haVOC" up top with Weah playing off of him. Adams and McKennie controlling the midfield. Dest Brooks Miazga Yedlin across the back 4. Steffen in goal.

Not perfect but it would stop the bleeding.

 

This is a good and thoughtful post. If I could boil it down to a simple argument, we changed the defensive recipe and it's not working. I think Dave Sarachan actually understood we had gotten too far away from what we're good at and capable of doing and started to get us back on the right track. Against Portugal, our back four was Lichaj-Brooks-Miazga-Yedlin with Williams at the 6 and Adams and Agudelo as wingers with McKennie as the 8. That's 8 guys who can defend on the pitch at the same time or maybe 7.5 (though Agudelo did put in an honest shift that game).

The real problem I have is that our back four is not comprised of pure defenders and we play a 6 that is totally lacking in defensive prowess so it's just a total recipe for disaster against a team with an attacking pulse. Personally, I think the solution would be as follows:

Bring one each of an attacking outside back and a gritty defender for each side:

I'd go with Lichaj (who is old but not slow like Ream or Lovitz) or Johnson and Robinson on the left and Dest and Cannon/Yedlin on the right. I'm optimistic that by 2022 Gloster and Dest will be guys who can both defend and attack at a high-level. They have the ability to become that in my opinion.

I'd go with Brooks and Ream for LCB's and Miazga and Robinson/Long as RCB's.

So, if we're playing Mexico we can go with basically what we had against Portugal but with Tyler Adams or Morales in front of them. Keep McKennie at the 8. Maybe slide Pulisic inside to the 10 and play a winger that can defend like an Arriola plus Morris/Weah. That's a team that would be hard to break down and can sit deep with a reasonable expectation that the wall will hold but also a team that could be strong on the counter with Pulisic, Morris/Weah, and Sargent/Altidore.

If we're playing a team that is going to bunker, we have A Robinson and Dest as outside backs, let Pulisic go wide again, and play a Pomykal type at the 10. That's a lot of creativity from a variety of spots.

We have a group that can play the way Gregg and Earnie envision with a few tweaks and a little more of a preference for talent over system familiarity. I just don't think that team is good enough to impose their will on Mexico or Portugal just yet so we need to be able to defend like our life depends on it when necessary. That is currently missing from the team and I enjoyed reading through other people's solutions to a problem we all acknowledge.

 

..so easy a caveman could do it.

What do I win?

 

Problem right now is far too often we essentially defend with 4, especially if we play an opponent that moves the ball forward quickly. After the back line, we have the regista slot instead of a true #6, a position more concerned with passing the ball around than getting stuck in. And we mostly play softies there. Then, the other midfielders play forward of the 6 as hybrid 8-10s which means they're really only able to defend much when we can get the whole team back in time, otherwise they're stuck too far forward and defending as they retreat. Other than that, you have a couple wingers who are pushed high and a striker. Where's the midfield defense even supposed to come from in this system? This glaring weakness is problem #1 for this team in my mind as I still favor the basic approach of get your defense straight and then form your attack. You don't just design a system where you get all these nice pretty passing angles and then forget that somebody actually has to defend the middle of the field.

 

you leave out cannon. you leave out lima. you downplay lichaj. you ignore the people we haven't tried yet. of course if we xerox berhalter's cul de sac it doesn't look pretty. but 2 GA in GC is probably as good as we have ever managed.

it's just people were offended how it combined with a crap berhalter midfield. or don't seem down with tradeoffs.

even if i accepted the argument, the appropriate response would be, evaluate the mids and decide whether you are better off opening it up or playing team defense. (we haven't seen adams back there to make a final decision.)

personally i think we look like rubbish because we try to field a bunch of midfield team defense already, and it's not good enough to shield the defense, or to service the offense. in theory you could put holmes and mckennie and morales out there with adams and see if that's enough. you could switch to a 451 a la Sarachan and let the sheer volume of mids clog things. i actually think that was more effective than this current crap but similarly stuttering in offense.

personally i am a fan of opening it up, calling in the attackers we leave out Gall Holmes Weah Sargent Soto Pomykal Mendez Green etc., and playing to strengths. to go whole hog on "team defense" one would be wise to identify the jones/ beckerman/ bradley we have sitting around to do it. does that exist, or are you just repeating Late Klinsi/Arena's mistake of going for team defense without the right personnel?

i think our talent strength is in attacking and i would tilt that way. i think within the attackers we have some players like holmes and mckennie who also play defense who could be swapped in for tougher games.

i think if we put 6 young attacking players out there then the other teams have to hold back and defend deep. i think what happens now is we are trying a xerox of a xerox of a xerox of JK's 3 DM scheme, with guys who are either past it or never-wases, and the coach is befuddled why we can't pass or defend like they did. the opposing teams do not respect our mids, press high, win balls on our end, easy goals on a short field. they need the fear of god, they back off to their end, we get room to work.

i think we would get more possession as an attacking team, but i don't see that as a particular strength. i would defend deep, help the defense out, and look to counter with speed. i would not obsess with how many times we turned the ball over because i don't see the personnel for it. with morris weah pulisic etc. we need to be beating teams around the flanks and killing them with square balls to the spot. kind of like what we did to cuba.

 

Sargent
Pulisic Green Morris
Adams Holmes
Lima Long Miazga (or McKennie??) Cannon
Steffen

Bench
Wood
Jozy
Weah
Arriola
McKennie
Lletget
Gall
Morales
Robinson
Horvath
CCV
Lichaj

I think it would be interesting to know what McKennie could do as a back. Conversely, what Robinson and Dest could do as wing mids.

 

If you wanted to play team defense:

Pulisic
Arriola Holmes Adams Morales Morris
Lichaj Long McKennie?? Cannon
Steffen

 

he occasionally crashes the box, usually against poor opposition, in a manner more befitting a forward, which he is not. he occasionally makes a long run back. he does not systematically create chances, he tends to turn it over a lot. he does not systematically defend.

what precisely is his position? if he's the 10 you are in for a long day against serious opposition. if he's a 6 you're not kept clean. and personally i prefer starting multiple 10s or multiple 6s -- getting the job done by specialists -- to muddling with someone who is just some of each. i think the US issue right now is a little too much comfort with "some of each" players, whose "some" is exaggerated.

i think he has the raw ability to be either a creator or destroyer. it's a "complete your passes for 90" or "defend for 90" thing. box to box tends to get trotted out by people who don't quite know what they are talking about to defend mids who have some skill and some punch but not enough of either.

to put this in tangible stats terms, 10 Schalke games so far, 0 goals, 1 assist. or 2 losses to Mexico, 0G, 0A. loss to Canada, ditto.

i don't know what his position is. he has already been given a chance to make things happen and the results are what they are. he is young and can change that. get to work.

i thought of putting him out there as a back because he plays freaking everywhere for schalke, including 6 games last year as either a CB or RB. i think he's pretty good and should play a role. i think we're a CB short of a pretty good defense, if we use the quality wing backs as opposed to "people good going forward." i think he's tough in the tackle and maybe a stint in defense would awaken 90 minute work rate and concentration.

or we can put brooks or ream in the back to be abused. confronted with the choice of the mediocre obvious vs an experiment with potential, let'er rip.

i expect to hear how he had all those cuba goals or production from gold cup but the point is how the mexico and canada games went. like think about how this works in a hex and not gold cup group round.

or i think he would be an interesting sub as a mid. bring in a guy with some goal scoring history when we need a goal. but i think the people who are like this is our b2b guy don't pay close enough attention to how he fares in the big boy games. we need to upgrade to people who can complete passes, produce, destroy in the big games. i need the guy who slalomed and scored on portugal. i haven't seen that repeated.

 

nagbe is a classic example of box to box utility. assist or goal once in a blue moon, and not all that destructive. and then people start asking who is the 10 and where is bradley's help? when you need an actual goal down to mexico who cares if in theory this guy can help both ends. you need an assist. you need a goal.

i also think the b2b discussion is sometimes coaches trying to have it both ways. you can't. on paper WM is supposed to be a 10 and a second 6. but when bradley gets burned you're either back as a 6 or not. if you're way upfield you're not really that second 6 at that pivotal moment, are you?

to me what the team needs is not double accounting, it's either consistent creation or goals, beyond the forwards,
or
better team defense, which i believe was the point to this thread.

i think he could be an outside of the box solution at CB but he's already had an extended run at precisely what role you think he should play without much big game impact. i don't care if he has raw talent and in theory should provide something as this 8. i care about he already starts, results are what they are, production against the big dogs is what it is. if we are trying to change big game results you have to reconsider everything. who are the backs. who in midfield is supposedly creating or destroying. whether pulisic could play 10 better than they could play 8.

my basic theory is not that someone else is a better 8, it's i'd rather have pure 10s and 6s, and if he has no pure position, it would be at his expense. i think we'd do better with holmes or morales as a second 6 or pulisic or green as a 10. i think we're a tad muddled and need to commit to either offense or team defense. either producing or a defensive terrier.

 

to me we seem to delight in this sort of double accounting of utility with players like MB -- "creating from the 6" -- or Dest/ Yedlin/ Ream/ Robinson as players who are supposed to be defenders but "can get forward."

how much does any of that actually happen? at what expense? so many hybrid roles, so few basic jobs done well. and we tend to overrate the offensive payoff, particularly in the big matches.

i even see how fairly anonymous and unproductive players like yueill are getting chatted up as bradley's successor. no goals, no assists, and in 4 games we have won 1, cuba. so it's like even when we get a hint of the good sense to move past older hybridity, they start wanting to talk up the next unproductive "regista." how about a 6 who can stop someone? how about waiting for assists and goals before annointing the attacking players? people have drunk so much GB kool aid they would subconsciously recreate his team and choices and mistaken trade offs but with younger people.

IMO, not enough pure, committed offense, or, pure, committed defense. and a little too much of building weakness into the formation.

 

the flaw in your argument is that Jones was as good of a 6 as we have ever had. he then could hit a pass, but what helped us was he could do the primary job so well. in their prime bradley and beckerman were also good at what they did.

what we are instead doing now is more of a "bedoya" or "nagbe" thing where the players are neither jones on defense nor reyna on offense. people act like this is some bevy of riches both ways but in reality it's usually starting some guy with 2G 4A in MLS who is no jones on defense and contributes definitively on offense once in a blue moon.

also, one thing i think people miss is players of that "type" are supposed to be complimentary hustle players joining a 10 and a 6. if you don't have the specialist creator and the specialist destroyer then what you're doing is starting a bunch of hustle mids and wondering why the equivalent of starting 3 nagbes or 3 richie williams doesn't seem very effective either way.

a telling feature to the offense at the moment -- like my dynamo -- is how many of the assists come from the forwards themselves. if the mids get dominated and the forwards can't get service, then who sets them up? but i thought all these 8s were going to hustle both ways??? guess that only works for carribean sides.

i don't think this is a banner period for 10s -- and i've given my theory why (that our roster and cap rules incentivize "buying" your 10s and 9s and "developing" complimentary workhorses instead -- however i am sure we can do better at creating offense within the pool than either mckennie circus act plays or bradley whacking 40 yard hopeful passes that don't even fool canada.

there has to be a "half court" plan b with some creative types involved. everything cannot come off the fast break. the irony of berhalter is that for selling a possession offense what we really do right now is counter. go down the wings and flank teams that allow it. if the plan a counter is not on and we have to pull up we don't have a half court plan b. this is fairly ironic for a team supposed to be copying higuain and all this nonsense about imbalance and breaking lines. we struggle to break teams down and IMO a significant part of it is the roldan/ mckennie/ etc. level of semi-skill held by the mids in advanced positions.

and then for people who are supposed to run box to box we give up a lot of goals where the midfield lose their men or get caught in possession and the other team gets a jailbreak with good numbers headed at our defense in our own half.