Defeating Mexico in Mexico in a WCQ

And a misogynist homophobe to boot. Just what I would expect. Have fun killing people. Good bye.

 

Fine! But no more love for you!!

 

don't underestimate the win in 1989 in t&t...

no win, no world cup in 1994 in the states, and one wonders if the recent boom in talent would have been extensive as it is...

usa might just be like canada without it...

1950 against england because of the significance of the scalp...

worst loss anyone???


need I say lyon in 1998...

yep...iran..

 

No, but since the goal is known in American soccer circles as the "shot heard round the world", it seems hardly underestimated generally.

 

The Cold War game in Columbus a in 2001 wasn't the best US game ever, but it was fun as hell.

 

Great thread, great post, except for this fairly significant error...

We lost 0-1 in Holland in February. And that game is an excellent example of what happens when we shut down our creativeness and play "bunkerball."

We have truly come into our own as a creative attacking team this year. Our lousy road games have, as a general rule, been due to field conditions. When you're playing in a swamp (Grenada, Panama) it's nigh impossible to string passes together consistently and play good through balls.

Heck, it's not like we played our "B" team in Holland. LD, Boca, McBride, Reyna, Lewis, Keller, Gibbs, Berhalter... about the only starters that day who get a lot of neg rep around here were Armas, Convey, and Hejduk, all of whom have some positives as well. Yes, we were missing DMB and the new youth players such as G.A.M., but that was a good squad. And because of the "bunkerball" approach, we played horribly.

When we go to Mexico next year, I say let it all hang out. Take it to 'em like we did in Dallas. Somehow I think our young guys can handle the pressure. They don't seem to get rattled. Put a ball in El Tri's net early and see how THEY respond to the pressure of being faced with a loss to the gringos in Mexico. Methinks red cards would follow. (Deserved for the home side, probably an undeserved one for the visitors, knowing CONCACAF refs.)

 

I think we can beat Mexico in Mexico. But I think for that to happen, a few things need to happen:

We need Landon, DaMarcus, and Pablo healthy and at their best. Did you know none of these guys have every lost to Mexico at the senior level? Landon is 4-0-1, and DMB and Pablo are both 2-0-1 against the Tri. More importantly, these guys always bring their A-game for Mexico. If one of these guys is missing, I think beating Mexico anywhere is a more difficult prospect.

Claudio needs to be put in a role-player position. Sue me for heresy. I don't care. Somebody had to say it.

The days of Claudio automatically being in the starting 11 if he can walk under his own power should be over. And the days of him being Captain Claudio that must touch the ball on every frickin' possession should definitely be over. If we need a guy to play out right and Claudio is up for it, put him there. If we need a guy to come off the bench and help us possession-kill a game, bring him along. But we don't need Claudio to be the fountain that all US attacks flow from anymore, and in fact we've been better recently when he hasn't been a key cog in the wheel. To be blunt, I think if Claudio is our starting wannabe AMid @ Mexico, it takes Landon, DMB, and Pablo off their best game, and our chances of winning go down.

Attacking outside defenders. We need to play wide against Mexico. Bruce can't concede a 3rd of the field's width against them. In Dallas, one of the reasons we dominated Mexico is because Convey and Hejduk were so impressive from outside defending positions. I think we can even be better with Cherundolo out right. Bocanegra has figured out how to be effective out left. I don't care what formation we play and what players are in that formation, the secret to our recent success against Mexico has been that we've owned them on the wings. We need that to continue.

Finally, the situation needs to be right. If we draw Mexico @ Mexico in games 1-3, Bruce will play conservative. I think that'd be a stupid mistake, but that's beside the point. Bruce won't take big chances in one of the first three games. If we draw Mexico later on, and if we've done well up to that point, then I think Bruce will unleash the hounds and go after El Tri.

And if we do, and if Landon, DMB, and Pablo are leading the charge, I think we've got a serious shot at pulling off our first win. That'd be sweet.

 

And Kerry Zavagnin is 2-0 vs el Tri. But none of that means anything. Afterall, you're ignoring the fact that Landon and DaMarcus got their asses handed to them by Mexico last year in a U23 match.

I don't think we need any specific player. This isn't 1994 where the talent pool was 13 players deep. We can beat Mexico with a large variety of lineups - lineups that can also lose to Mexico. The key thing is how well the U.S. plays and how well Mexico plays.

 

Or when our creativeness gets shut down by a superior opponent.

Frankly, I think it is more likely that we will win in Mexico than it is for us to finish in front of Mexico in the Hex. Anything can happen in a one-off. Over a ten game "season", I think they are still superior to us. Despite our recent positive results against them, they are an excellent team with good young talent and an unsurpassed home field advantage.

For me, finishing in front of the in the Hex would be a much bigger accomplishment that beating them in Mexico.

 

Hilarious!! A Tri fan in denial couldn't have said it more convincingly.

Over the most recent 10-match "season", the USNT record versus Mexico is 6-3-1 (+8 GD). Those ten matches were played over six years starting in 1999 (the last year Mexico dominated).

Over five years, the USNT record is 6-1-1 (+10 GD).

Over four years, the USNT record is 4-1-1 (+5 GD).

Over three years, the USNT record is 3-0-1 (+4 GD).

Do you see a trend?

I'm curious to know how you define "superior to us".

Unfortunately for them, they're just not as "excellent" as the USNT. But you're correct about the home field part.

Based on our record in the last ten-match "season" and momentum of improvement, it is likely we will win in Mexico and finish in front of them in the Hex.

Welcome to US Soccer.

 

You are obviously free to "read the season" as you see fit.

However, the comment was made that over a 10-match "season" -- Mexico was superior to the USNT. So, I looked at the most recent ten matches, which -- as I am sure you know -- include everything from "friendlies" to the World Cup.

Whether based on results of the last 10-match "season" or just "recent" results, the Mexican NT is not better than the USNT. Period.

 

And of course, if the US plays well, the Mexico games will be irrelevant.

 

Perhaps I should have been more specific about the 10 game season. I am talking about the Hex. Where did we finish with relationship to Mexico in the last Hex ?

I am a huge US fan but you have to be realistic. Mexico rarely if ever struggles in meaningful games against Central American and Carribean opponents. We still do.

We may have scoreboard on them recently head-to-head, but I still see them matching up better over the next year and a half of qualifying against the other 4 teams in the Hex.

 

Really?

You seem to have forgotten the difficulties Mexico was having qualifying for the 2002 World Cup.

Trinidad and Tobago 1 Mexico 0 in TNT (2000-7-23)
Canada 0 Mexico 0 in Canada (2000-11-15)
Trinidad and Tobago 1 Mexico 1 in TNT (2001-4-25)
Honduras 3 Mexico 1 in Hon (2001-6-20)

Mexico then had an incredible run of form to be sure. They subsequently beat the United States, and demolished minnows left and right. They even won their group in Asia beating out Italy....

And then.... oh dear.

 

I presume you know the answer already; the US beat Mexico 2-0 in Crew Stadium, and Mexico beat the US 0-1 in Azteca (July '01, the last time Mexico beat the US).

Even if those were the only two matches played, what objective data supports a view that "Mexico is superior"?

But then they were not the only matches.

The US has lost once, tied once, and beaten Mexico six time in the last five years, including matches in both WCQ and the WC. The US has a +10 goal differential during that time. Mexico has scored one goal against the US in the last eight matches!

Yeah, baby! Now that's "superiority".

I need to be realistic? Seriously, man. Not to be rude, but please review the last five years.*

"May have"? "Recently"?

Try "definitely" and "for five years running".

The balance of "superior" evidence is overwhelmingly in the USNT's favor, and there is nothing to suggest the future is any less bright.








* It's OK to change one's view.

 

if usa wins in mexico and wins here, I doubt mexico can make up that 6 point gap, due to the relative weakness of the hex...

even if usa gets 4 points out of mexico, that 3 point gap is still significant...

sure mexico can dominate at home against panama and t&t, but costa rica and guatemala are NOT guaranteed wins, and visits to saprissa and guatemala city, mexico might NOT get any points...

usa has more weapons than ever before, and defensively can approach the hex with suitable back-ups in every position....

usa might clinch a slot on matchday 8, and arena could experiment the last two and have mexico win the group because of that...

so, winning the hex might be deceptive...same for mexico too, they could use a B line-up the last matches too...

 

I think all Dr Jay is saying is that the US sometimes seems to play to the level of their opponent (especially on the road), while Mexico, of late, has been absolutely demolishing lesser teams. Because of this, there is a good chance that the US will fair well head to head with Mexico, but still finish behind them in the Hex.

Head to head, it's impossible to argue that the US has Mexico's number.

 

You mean, impossible not to argue, I think.

 

Good thread here. I agree with having Landon, DMB and Mastroeni healthy. I think I'd give the slight edge to Mastroeni over KZ because Mastroeni has a bit more experience and was in 02.

I'd also add EJ to that list. EJ almost scored in Mexico in that Olympic qualifying loss. I don't think the Mexicans' defense would be able to contain EJ's all-around game.

I guess we'll learn a lot more on Tuesday in regards to times and dates. If I had my druthers, I'd play Mexico in Mexico in February. A win there and the US has huge momentum going into the rest of the hex.

 

Yeah, I meant to write "impossible to argue with the fact that the US has Mexico's number." and my brain skipped a few words. Thanks for the correction.

 

You are making the following assumption that I disagree with:

Because in the recent past, the US has defeated Mexico head to head, that means we will finish ahead of them in the Hex.


Matchups and home field advantage being what they are, I disagree.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think Mexico is likely to finish ahead of us in the Hex.

My reasons: (1) Azteca (2) They have more depth (3) Their style of play is more apt to blow out lesser teams. (4) Tactics of the other teams - its likely that we and Mexico will be seeing 11-behind-the-ball against everyone at home and even some on the road as (most likely) 4 out of 6 in the Hex go to the WC. Mexico has had much more success than we have against bunkering teams.


PS - Unless you consider the last Hex not "recent", they did finish ahead of us, suggesting over that time period, using that format, they were the superior team.

 

It's not gonna happen any time soon yanks.. Only time we lost to a concacaf team in Mexico was on a offsides goal where the reff or linesman was from the caribean and well now the fmf and chief warner are bestest buddies so that mistake is unlikely to repeat itself..

 

Elevn behind the ball at Azteca and against CONCACAF teams !!! Our coach would lose his job for pulling that stunt.. maybe you Yanks dont expect much from the US nats but aint no way were going to play defensive at home, not even against Brazil..

 

Ahhh, the old referee excuse. Nevermind Oswaldo being horribly out of position or Fonseca nailing a perfect shot from way downtown.