De Guzman goes Dutch

Discussion in 'Canada' started by TFC07, Feb 6, 2008.

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  1. jpg75

    jpg75 Member

    Jun 11, 2005
    Toronto, Canada
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    FFS. This is a question of ethics, and there still are ethics in sport regardless of what philosophical views you may have. This is unethical, luring a 12 year old overseas to play football and seducing him into playing for your nation is bullshit.

    The last thing i care about is living vicariously through others, him included. We have our own lives and i'm happy with mine as i'm sure alot of other Canadian supporters are.

    And lastly, I am a nationalist and i'm not going to apologize for it, certainly not because you view it as childish. I love Canada, so piss off.
     
  2. wyly

    wyly New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Calgary
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    well a couple of NHL players from small countries have stated they want to play for Canada if they can make the grade.....so you're saying we should deny them this because they owe the country of their birth?.... and Canadians would call them traitors and so say to them sorry you're an immigrant a traitor to your country of birth we don't want you....how nice, what your saying is naturalized Canadians can never become equals to native born....I can guarantee you that if they make the cut Canada well let them play and won't give a fig for the countries of their birth....

    be pissed all you want but the reality is that people make their own choices in life it's no one's business but their own....
     
  3. wyly

    wyly New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Calgary
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    a question of ethics??? really, I thought it was question of human rights....I must have my priorities screwed up, I was sure that freedom of choice/citizenship came before pleasing masses of crappy footballers........

    luring a 12yr old, hmm I was sure it was his father that brought him there....and the country seduced him? likely the local girls did but the country has a surplus of talented mid fielders he'll be fortunate to get full time bench position in the next 5 yrs....

    now put away your Captain Canada uniform and find your own life to live just as JDG2 has....
     
  4. jpg75

    jpg75 Member

    Jun 11, 2005
    Toronto, Canada
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Just because it's legal, does not make it right. You can hide behind the legalities of immigration law all you want, but you still fail to face the matter at a level of principle. Like you said "this is about a game", so why is it about human rights now? People are free to move around and earn a living, but it doesn't mean we have to make a mockery of international sport.

    Don't deny it, Holland spread it's legs...

    Funny, you mention JDG2 has a life, but not you...just give it a rest, you look like a complete dick with the psycho babble.
     
  5. Blizzard

    Blizzard Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Well said!

    B
     
  6. Viruk42

    Viruk42 New Member

    Jul 23, 2007
    Ottawa
    It would be pleasant if you could name them. I know of many players who played for different places compared to their birth place. Olaf Kolzig was born in South Africa, but he plays for Germany. Robyn Regehr was born in Brazil, plays for Canada. Owen Nolan was born in North Ireland, also plays for Canada. Dany Heatley was born in Germany, another Canadian player.

    However, most of those cases are questions of heritage and circumstances. Heatley was an Army Baby, I believe. Nolan grew up in Ontario, Regehr grew up in Saskatchewan.

    Kolzig, meanwhile, actually grew up in BC. He never applied for Canadian citizenship, however, and chose to play for Germany.

    Petr Nedved defected from Czechoslovakia and decided to play for Canada. That was not even a question of his chance of winning, because he only played for Canada internationally once, at the 94 Olympics (where Canada was always represented by real amateurs against the "amateurs" of Russia).


    But I know of no one wanting to play for Canada who was born in Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Ukraine, Latvia, Slovenia, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, South Korea, Japan, Nigeria or any other small country that develops hockey players. Nor do I know of any Swedes, Finns, Slovaks, Czechs, Russians or Americans who wanted to play for Canada,
    with the exception of those escaping communism.



    Now you're trying to put words in my mouth. I never said we'd call them traitors or deny them or anything. That would imply that I think Holland should reject Jonathan, call him a traitor, etc. Of course not. They're in it to win, and they'll take almost anyone who can help them win.
    No, what I am maintaining is that countries like Germany or Switzerland, who are just on the edge of the Big 7 Hockey countries, would be enraged if one of their natives chose to play for Canada. And I'm suggesting they'd have every right to be enraged.

    I'm not attacking Holland here at all, in fact I'm mainly attacking Jonathan's method of decision making (well, decision announcing), and I was poking holes in your argument.
     
  7. wyly

    wyly New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Calgary
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    what a hilarious post....you bring ethics into the debate and don't know that human rights is all about ethics? that's just too funny......

    when engaging in a battle of wits you should come armed......
     
  8. jpg75

    jpg75 Member

    Jun 11, 2005
    Toronto, Canada
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Ok there Mr. Moving Goalposts...human rights don't belong in this conversation to begin with, this is NOT an issue of human rights as Jonathan De Guzmans' right to live in security, with adequate food, shelter and a right to education etc. is not in question. And even if it was, you're putting words in my mouth because i never said Human rights did not have ethics. What i did say was that sometimes what is legal, is not always founded in principle. But anyways, this is a matter of sport. Though De Guzman has the legal right to play for Holland, the rules as they stand are screwing the little guys....


    Hey Ed, i think there has to be a joke in here somewhere. A Dutchman using the words "armed" and "battle" in the same sentence? :D
     
  9. CanuckFan

    CanuckFan Member

    Dec 13, 1999
    Calgary
    Club:
    FC Energie Cottbus
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Yes, the Dutch have won many memorable battles. The most recent was in the early 70's, when they forced their generals to cave in and allow hair nets for the men being drafted.
     
  10. wyly

    wyly New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Calgary
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Antropov of the Maple leafs-Kazakhstan (their captain no less)has said he would and another player but I have no idea how to spell his name, sorry I can't even recall his team, possibly Ottawa.....there no such thing as cup-tied in Olympic sports...you can switch countries, which FIFA should allow as well......and escaping communism isn't an acceptable excuse as another poster claims human rights is pshyco babble and not ethics....

    sorry, I'm not attempting to put words in your mouth just showing the implications of what you're saying......

    I think "enraged" is too strong, disappointed is more likely, anything else is over the top....if JDG2 went to school there for an education and decided to stay and become a physician there would we even be having this discussion?....it happens all the time no one feels enraged when Canadians emigrate to other countries to pursue their profession....as a matter of fact I met a waitress in Holland from Toronto who went school there at age 15( 21 or 22 now) and had no intention of returning, are you "outraged" or feel betrayed?

    I never took it as attack.....

    JDG2 decision making is his, we have no idea what was going through his teenage mind or how many times he's changed it, it's all speculation.... between 12- 20yrs old how many how life changing decisions did you make, how many times did you change your mind, are Canadians enraged with your decisions(maybe your parents are annoyed)?....did you expect him to hire a PR agent to sooth Canadian soccer fans hurt feelings.......
     
  11. Viruk42

    Viruk42 New Member

    Jul 23, 2007
    Ottawa
    Antropov is crap anyways. I would rather shoot myself in the foot than have him on a team I cheer for.
    I will admit, I cannot find any rules in terms of national eligibility on the internet, so I cannot technically dispute that. However, I will bring up Evgeni Nabokov, another Kazakh.
    While the Olympics may not have regulations, the IIHF has similar regulations to that of FIFA. Antropov would be subject to those same regulations.

    Your implications are rather distant from what I was saying, and seem quite illogical to me.

    Yes and no. Enraged is, perhaps, a bit too strong. But I would put it as more than disappointment, though perhaps that has to do with the way he made his decision.
    I'm pretty disappointed with all the people who go to the US because they can make better money there, or get better scholarships, or whatnot. Elsewhere, less disappointed. I can understand the desire to move away from what you know, to experience other things. However, let me remind you that this waitress was from Toronto. Who would want to go there? (Actually, I guess I do...there's a Dimmu Borgir concert on April 2nd)


    PR agent? No. However, I did expect him to use common sense. He announced his decision about a week after the interview with Sportsnet was aired. During that interview, he said he hadn't made up his mind yet, and there was no time frame for the decision.

    Then he goes off, gets his citizenship, and 0.75 seconds later decides to play for Holland.


    Let's turn that into a conversation:
    Canada: Please join us Jonathan.
    Jonathan: I'm still thinking about it...oh hey, I got my citizenship! Sorry, I'm going to play for Holland. Bye!

    or even better

    Canada: Will you go to the prom with me Jonathan?
    Jonathan: I'm thinking about it, but I may be able to go with your cousin, Holland...
    Canada: When will you make your decision?
    Jonathan: I'm not really sure, I'm taking my time, considering my options...hang on...she said yes! Gotta run, bye!



    Basically, it's a slap in the face. All he had to do was wait a month. Or even a few weeks. Tell me, how many games has he played with Holland since announcing his choice? Hmmm...looks like 0. So why not wait? It's not like they needed to know for an important game yesterday. If he had acted with logic and patience, I'd probably still cheer for him. Instead he looks like a money grubbing piece of shit that isn't worthy to walk on Canadian soil ever again. Unfortunately, I don't get to make that kind of decision.
     
  12. guppy

    guppy New Member

    May 19, 2007
    Aquarium
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nepal
    It was Dutch UN troops in 1992 that handed over the Bosnian civilians to the Serbs after promising them safety ... Cuz they were fraidy-cats! :cool: They even gave up their helmets.....

    They got some troops in Afghanistan, I suspect the Canadians have to watch over them ... :p
     
  13. wyly

    wyly New Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Calgary
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    historical ignorant-Sebrenica, they were surrounded by the Serbs and denied the means to defend themselves when the UN refused their request for air support...now tell me which Canadian General stood by and did nothing to save Belgium soldiers from slaughter in Rwanda? how many died in Rwanda 800,000?

    Afghanistan.....if Canada asks politely Holland may sell Canada more used tanks or helicopters that actually fly and carry troops or submarines that actually go to sea....Militarily Canada is not in Netherlands league, same as football....
     
  14. SoccerNewf

    SoccerNewf Member

    Jan 16, 2007
    Pasadena, NL
    Guys, get back on track.

    What the hell does Genocide in Rwanda have to do with De Guzman?
     
  15. Viruk42

    Viruk42 New Member

    Jul 23, 2007
    Ottawa

    Absolutely nothing, of course. Pretty classless statements by both sides.


    Let us remember, the Dutch didn't really make the decision for Jonathan. We can attack him all we want, but we can't really blame the Dutch.

    However, I must admit, I'm appalled by Jonathan's lack of effort during the War of 1812.
     
  16. SoccerNewf

    SoccerNewf Member

    Jan 16, 2007
    Pasadena, NL
    In the past couple months I have become a bit of regular here and have got to know most of the people who are posting in this thread. And I have respect for all these guys opinions. However....
    You guys gotta stop with the crap, if you want to get into the Dutch and Canadian military relations, you would know we have one of the strongest alliances of any two countries in the world. So stupid to be arguing like this.

    But yeah, as a Canadian it sucks that De Guzman decided to "announce his intention" to play for Holland. Because I still think there is a chance he could play for Canada, but I am not holding out a lot of hope. It sucks even worse that he was on Canadian tv only a few days before and said he didn't know what he would do, when he obviously did.

    Do I consider the guy a traitor? No not a chance, the guy was given an opportunity in another country to play football at a world class level. He has grown some affection to that country and sees himself as a citizen of that country.

    I think the big problems come from the FIFA rules. If Jonathan was able to switch, then I think he would play for Canada too. I don't think a player should be able to switch back and forth at will, but it should be an involved process that takes into account, special situations like Jonathan's. If the CSA had any balls, they might be going after something like this. Because he may actually see very little time in a Holland uniform if you ask me.
    He has to fit what the national team wants, the Dutch have been known for playing a certain style.

    he is also a player that needs a team built around him. He has to be the guy that runs everything out there. I don't know if he is ready to do that right now at a national level for the Dutch right now.
     
  17. guppy

    guppy New Member

    May 19, 2007
    Aquarium
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nepal
    I'd like to continue this discussion as I imagine it would be quite lively, but I have to respect others who do not think it a proper thing to be discussing here.
     
  18. Blizzard

    Blizzard Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    As soon as we started getting into ethnic cleansing, this thread was doomed.

    B
     

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