Don't bother responding to mine, i'm unsunscribing myself from this thread. I'm getting too worked up about this sh!t... When Q rolls around @BMO i'll post my seat # for you if you still want a piece of me...
I haven't been around here for a week I kinda thought this would have died down by now, glad to see I'm not the only who thinks it was JDG2's decision to make, too bad for us but life goes on... being an immigrant myself from Netherlands I can understand JDG2's position.....I asked myself what would I do if I was a great NHL player, would I take play for Canada or Netherlands? hey no hesitation there, Canada, would the dutch care or call me a traitor? no.......now if I wasn't all that good and had no chance with the Canadian team would I play for Netherlands in Group C hockey or the Olympics? absolutely.... would any Canadians care if I did, no......so the only reason anyone is upset by his decision is that the Kid is good, if he wasn't they wouldn't care..... he owes our country nothing and at the age of twelve when we went to Netherlands he would have had very little concept of what it is to be/feel Canadian, my 8 yr old still doesn't believe Saskatchewan is part of Canada,for him Canada ends at Calgary's city limits.....JDG2's most formative years were spent growing up in a different culture and the moment he was handed his Dutch passport the deal was done, it would be a significant moment in anyone's life somewhat like being married only more permanent........ and many pages back someone said I feel the way I do only because I'm dutch, partly true but only because I can relate to being an immigrant.....but when Oranje played Canada way back in '94 it was the red&white I was cheering for..... I couldn't understand it when Chilean Canadians cheered against Canada last summer, very sad display.......
The idea that he owes Canada 'nothing' is absurd. We can debate how much he 'owes' to each respective country but I can assure you that considering he lived over half his life in Canada and learned the fundamentals of the game here, he does owe us something. He may owe Holland more, but 'nothing'? C'mon. It's not that black and white.
I'd say he say he doesn't owe Holland anything either but maybe he feels he does... and comparing what he learned in Holland vs Canada is weak there is no comparison, their organization and training at a national, club and youth level is far beyond what Canada has.... does Canada give you anything other than a patch of soil to live on?.....everything I have, you have or my kids have was paid for by taxes or wages none of it is given for free, it's earned......the same as in Holland, nothing comes for free....JDG2 acquired his skills with extremely hard work and dedication anything less and Feyenoord would have sent him home 8 years ago, he's earned the training he's received it wasn't free.... I spent the better part of 3 decades training kids to play soccer for free, did Canada do that for them? no I did, just as any coach JDG2 had, we represented ourselves not Canada......I don't ever getting a cheque from the CSA for my time but I do recall giving the CSA money for certification....
If you truly feel that way, why do you stay? If Canada means so little to you, you have options. According to the UN, Canada ranks a very lowly #4 in the world as the best place to live. Obviously, if we rank behind #1 Iceland, #2 Norway and #3 Australia and only 9 places above #12 USA, this place really must suck. B
I'm not comparing them. All I'm saying is that he obviously learned something about the game in Canada, enough to give him the platform to impress Feyenoord coaches enough to immediately play him in an age group above him. Where you got the idea that I was comparing or claiming superiority in terms of soccer development I have no idea. I don't see how you can enjoy international football at all with this attitude, tbh. You say you cheer for Canada, but I'm having a hard time discerning why all you would cheer for is 'the patch of soil' that you live on. If you approach it this way then you my as well arbitrarily support any nation you please. I don't know the De Guzmans, but maybe Canada provided the financial opportunity for his father that allowed them to make trips to Europe for trials. Maybe Canada's health care system allowed him to have a healthy childhood so that he was physically able to compete with other elite athletes in his age group when he was 12, 13, etc. I don't consider myself overly nationalistic or patriotic, but I find it bizarre that you would degenerate Canada into just a patch of soil, yet still choose to live here and support Canada's national team. And don't interpret this as an attack on you, cause it's not. I just really don't understand.
You are digging yourself a hole that you won't be able to climb out of. You can take your 'patch of soil' comment and your attitude to Canada and join the boatload of Dutch ingrates we are shipping back. Let them handle the 4th Reich on their own.
you mentioned "owes" to each respective country "learned the fundamentals of the game here, ".....I just pointed out how minor his soccer training was here in comparison if you to attach weight to what he owes to each country Canada loses....but I don't , he earned everything he has he owes neither country IMO.... his father and mother and their financial opportunity-works both ways Canada owes it's immigrants equally....Canada was built by immigrants it still needs them without a constant supply of them (a quarter of a million each yr) the economy comes to a screeching halt..... health care-as I said we pay for it with our taxes it's not free, JDG2s parents would have paid their share as well.... degenerate Canada?....I love where I live but I don't get emotional about it, I have a home and piece of ground in Canada on the planet earth, over the top Patriotism and Nationalism are concepts that belong in another century....I'll cheer for my country men whenever they play but if they lose it's still just a game it has nothing to do with my country is better than another.........
Obviously Canada 'loses' in that sense, but that doesn't mean he learned nothing here. That's what I was objecting to. No, it doesn't and I'm not saying it does. Nor am I calling for over the top patriotism. But comments as flippant as the one you made about a 'patch of soil' don't really seem to indicate any sort of attachment to Canada whatsoever. Which is why I struggle to comprehend why you would cheer for a team of players that have no connection to you other than the superficial one of living on a similarly defined patch of soil? Why is it you claim you love Canada if it is only a patch of soil? Why do you love this patch of soil when there are millions of other patches to be had elsewhere in the world? Seriously, cause if I only saw Canada as a patch of soil, I don't think I would be at all inclined to cheer for the national team. And without wanting to get too political or whatever, are you saying you don't appreciate intangible things like religious and racial tolerance that exist at least to some extent in Canada? Or do your taxes pay for those as well?
Good! Just like I thought, talk garbage about a subject and as soon as you can't take it any more leave the thread. Please don't try to make it look like I am the one that wanted a piece of you! You suggested you'd slap me, told me you promised you would do it, and tried to arrange it. I'm not sure if that was just the better of your feelings getting to you. But I 'CALLED' you out because I highly doubt you would make that claim to a stranger. But if you still feel confident you would slap me, private message me with those details in June, and I will be sure to give you that opportunity....
All 3 of which (apparently) have very attractive women. Interesting...... I really need to learn Swedish, which will give me 2 useful languages for a future exploration of Norway, Sweden and Finland.
hmm, if Canada didn't have such lenient immigration laws; if his his parents hadn't been welcomed into Canada from Jamaica and the Philippines respectively, would Jonathan de Guzman even have been born?
Listen, i'm leaving the thread because i'm sick of getting worked up over this crap, certainly not because i can't handle it or i'm "talking garbage". If you naively believe that he's playing for Holland because he feels Dutch and it's a question of immigration then that's your problem. There's a glut of other issues that have been brought up such as problems with the OSA/CSA, money etc. As i said, only time will tell who is correct, and that depends on what Jono does when his career is over. Far as i'm concerned the kid is likely leaving Feyenoord this summer and could play in one of the 5 bigger leagues in Europe for the next decade or so. If he establishes a permanent residence in Holland and spends his off-seasons there and lives there for the rest of his life after soccer, then he's Dutch. But if he's shuttling back to Toronto every summer and comes back to live here and dies here, then he was a liar. BTW, the interview with the Dobber was taped 2 weeks prior to airing. He applied for a Dutch passport back in the summer. You figure it out. And if you want to know more about the situation, ask someone else; like one of the CSF guys. http://www.canadiansoccerfederation.ca Or PM MediaGuy or Vpjr from this board... Anyways, i'm outta here...
I despise nationalism and patriotism, how does that connect to what teams I support? I live in Calgary on my patch of dirt and I don't support any Calgary teams. 30% of the city supports the Saskatchewan Riders how is that possible, where is their loyalty why don't they move to Saskatchewan? Because it's a frigging game, nothing more...and I cheer on the Wings and I've never lived in the USA, incomprehensible! and as for the "intangible things" there are 50 other countries I can find the same, I choose here to be my home......
It doesn't. Saskatchewan isn't a nation. Calgary isn't a nation. Nationalism and patriotism don't enter into it. I don't think you understand the concept. You can't compare a Regina v Calgary situation with a Netherlands v Canada scenario. You despise nationalism and patriotism! That's fine. Find a deserted island with a coconut tree to live on. That's what you really need it seems.
That's true. There are nearly one million people lined up to become Canadians at the moment. The problem isn't the immigration laws. The problems are many fold including enforcement of the already existing laws.
That is not true, nor is it even an equivalent situation. The Dutch wouldn't care if you played for Canada because, as you said, group C hockey. Hockey has 7 "big" nations, and then a few smaller ones, before you hit a pretty big gap in skill. A better example would be if you were Belarussian and chose to play for Canada. It's screwing the small team that is trying to improve, while joining a team you think has a great chance to win. You also make a mistake in points of view. You're saying if you weren't much of a hockey player (let's say you're in the ECHL, or a minor player in the AHL), and you chose to play for Holland, no Canadians would care... The equivalent to that would be if Jonathan wasn't a good player, the Dutch wouldn't care if he didn't play for Canada, which is true. What you should be asking is if you were an AHL player, and you still chose Canada over Holland, then yes, Holland would care. They'd be the small team trying to improve, but getting screwed. This would transfer over to Jonathan still choosing Holland, but not being as good. We'd still be pissed that someone turned their backs on us; or at least I would.
Because some element of nationalism/patriotism is needed to support Canada's national teams in any sport. As I said, I don't consider myself overly patriotic, but if you are completely unpatriotic then your support for Canada is arbitrary and meaningless. And you're moving the goalposts by comparing club or city sports to the international game. If they were directly comparable as you seem to be suggesting, then international football would be meaningless as people could just 'choose' which nation to support. I happen to think there is a difference, so I find your analogy to be flawed. Yet you choose to stay for what, nearly 3 decades I believe you said? And still claim you have no attachment to Canada? Fine. Then don't go around with this pretence of supporting Canada's soccer teams, because presumably you'd cheer for Brazil or Poland or Ireland if you were to relocate your 'patch of soil' there tomorrow. Canada doesn't need 'supporters' like that, IMO.
my logic? premise A: countries "doing things" for us means in essence that they help make things and events happen that are important in our lives. premise B: being born is the most important event in a person's life. premise C: the country that houses a person's parents is partially responsible for enabling preconditions for a persons' conception and birth if the parents would not have otherwise met had they not lived in the same country. premise D: Jonathan de Guzman's parents would have never met if they had not immigrated to Canada, and Jonathan would never have been born. Therefore, he has Canada to thank in part for enabling the most important event in his life, even more important than his youth contract at Feyenoord. Wyly if you don't like my logic, you don't have to. But how can you nonetheless maintain that the Netherlands has done something to him. They let him in as an exchange student (basically). Do exchange students who come to Canada for high school owe more to Canada than to their native country? Now, you could make an argument that Feyenoord has done something for him. They helped him become the great footballer he is today, more than anyone else (one could argue). But they didn't do it for humanitarian or benevolent reasons. They made a cash investment in him, now he's paying off by earning them wins, and gate revenues and what not, this summer or next winter or next summer he'll be sold to some club with a lot of money, and Feyenoord will reap the transfer reward then. So, how is it that the Netherlands has done more for him than Canada?
Jono De Guzman traitor to his country and Canadian soccer...yes the CSA and chosing Canada could be detrimental to his career but it didnt stop his brother a real Canadian.
apparently I understand far better than you as the idea is seemingly beyond your ability to conceptualize.....I've been through he whole childish concept of nationalism/patriotism and rejected it as anachronistic...it's an adult concept I guess...
hey you forgot Premise E: if Homo Sapiens hadn't left Africa JDG's ancestors would have never made it to the Philippines or Jamaica .....your logic is absurd.... he owes us/Canada nothing...all this idiotic chatter that he owes Canada is childish and selfish, the rantings of wannabe footballers who didn't put the effort into their own training and now expect a 20 yr old who has to fulfill their wet dreams for them....no different than all the insane parents trying to project their sporting fantasys through their kids.......