The thread about the 3 trialists has gotten a bit out of hand. The discussion is a bit 'all over the place' and I would like to discuss one particular issue within that larger discussion: Where is the acquisition coming from and is that where he ought to come from? I'm hoping this thread can provide a space for that. The recent Washington Post article reports that DC are about to bring in 3 trialists - all strikers of some sort. Two are "target players" and the third has "special qualities" or whatever. Their nationalities have also been identified. One Uruguayan and two Argentines. Two of these players are out of contract and one would require a transfer fee. Now, despite the contract status of two of the players, I still have a problem with these players and where they're from. Yes, I have a problem with them before I even know who they are. I do have a reason for this. It has to do with a fundamental problem with Kevin Payne's approach to acquiring players. What follows borders on a diatribe. Here's my thinking: Argentina and Uruguay are heavily scouted countries. Their best players are all playing in top leagues around the world and their hot young prospects are constantly snapped up by wealthy clubs. This means that just about every decent Uruguayan and Argentine striker has a contract with some club, somewhere. The ground has been stripped bare of talent in these countries. I'd even argue that the value of Uruguayan and Argentine players is inflated: An Argentine of quality X costs and makes more than an American or Jamaican of quality X :: just as an Englishman of quality X costs/makes more than an American of quality X. (To extrapolate via example: Were that Daglish guy American, he probably would have trouble getting a game in the A-League. Since he's English, we nearly paid him big bucks last year.) And so here comes Kevin Payne, claiming that two of the trialists are "proven goalscorers." I find that hard to believe. Any Uruguayan or Argentine that DC United can consider has proven something all right - that he wasn't good enough to play in any of the world's top leagues. Why do I say that? Because the proven Argentine and Uruguayan goalscorers are all playing in Serie A, La Liga, or the Premiership on wages MLS would never pay. I've tried to discern Payne's logic. My guess is that it goes something like this: "Even though these guys may not be the best in their country, they'll score goals in MLS." I think he's dead wrong, and that he's wrong because he totally underestimates the talent level in MLS. The problem: Payne believes that mediocre (on a global scale) Argentines and Uruguayans can come into MLS and dominate. That's just not the case anymore. MLS is better than that. The US National Team looks at least as good as Uruguay. MLS players like Damani Ralph and Landon Donovan could easily play in the top leagues in the world. To bring in an Argentine stud (or even someone as good as Carlos Ruiz), you'd have to pay wages that MLS clubs can't afford. At this point, a good acquisition from Argentina would be someone who is just off the fringe of their National Team (their version of Jason Kreis). But that player still makes well over 500K somewhere. Concacaf players' values are understimated, Conmebol players' values overestimated. Smart coaches, like Bob Bradley and Sigi Schmid, realize this and have instead turned to the Caribbean and Central America. Argentine or Uruguayan players of Ruiz, Glen, and Taylor's quality would have gotten snapped up by European clubs. Since they're not from one of those heavily scouted countries, MLS was able to pick them up at reasonable prices. That's smart. The bottom line is that if Payne continues to pursue this strategy (going after "established South Americans"), he's going to saddle United with yet another player who isn't worth what we pay him.
I agree with your logic (Logic on bigsoccer? The world must be coming to an end. ), but I would like to see who KP (note I didn't say DK, Sandon) brings in before passing judgement. Here's hoping its not someone who will embarass the team and clean out the coffers while doing it.
This is an interesting argument. I basically agree... guys like a MArio Gori (Arg.) or Thaigo Martins (Brazil) tend to be the medicore minor talents unable to crack the real teams in their home countries. But at the same time what if these players are guys that had a theoretical "run" at playing over seas and jsut didnt get a fair shake or are talented guys that have just run on hard times or injury. I seem to recall a pair of Bolivians that peaked out and left England and Spain, yet were still able to do pretty well for DC United. --I think we need to learn more before making judgements but your points are good and should give us some cause for concern.
I definitely agree that there are bargains out there in Central America, and it would be great to discover a gem. But realistically, the Mexican league grabs most of the standouts there. There are some gems, like Ruiz, but not as many as some people may think. I disagree with you about Argentina, and to a lesser extent Uruguay. Argentina is a tremendous breeding ground for talent, and it's a very large country. I think both Argentina and Brazil have a lot of talented players who just are considered "not skillful enough" to make it there that sort of fall through the cracks. Guys like our trialists Joares proved they can score on MLS defenses. In fact, the kid from Flamengo's youth program that played collegiately in the US, went unnoticed, and became MLS Rookie of the Year for the Metros (name escapes me at the moment), was a pretty decent player. He had other issues, but the talent was there, despite being judged "not skillful enough" in Brazil and doing well but going unnoticed here in the US. I do think there are players in Argentina and Brazil who can be solid players in MLS. And remember, the US has a big appeal for South Americans as well as Central Americans, so the same incentives apply. That said, I don't know how many "proven" players are lured here. Certainly Sergio Galvan Rey is more proven than anyone we're trialing, and he's struggling here in MLS. I can see a good player coming here to retire and establish his family here in the US, but I can't see him moving here for any other reason really. MLS's record on retirement-transfers is quite poor. I'm glad we're making a move for a target forward ... its kinda like having a car without a roof for a year in Buffalo, then suddenly it dawns on you that you need a roof. It's a little late, but better late than never. -Digital
D-tron, here's my thinking (and it's completely speculation given that we don't know who the trialists are and they haven't had a chance to show their stuff). 1. I think at least 2 of the guys being brought in may not necessarily be "great" players per se, but role players. This team is crying out for a big guy, decent in the air, a target, who will mix things up in the box, get in front of crosses, maybe even show some finishing skills. We could very well be looking at 2 guys who are incomplete players (and thus not in big demand for club teams who want a more complete game) or overseas but could be a good piece to the puzzle for DCU. 2. Generally I agree with you that the best "bargain" and probably players with more potential will come from the Carribean, maybe Central America. But the level of play is better in most of the South American countries. A player who comes from the Argentine first division (and I"m speculating) may be "readier" in terms of adjustment to step into MLS and perform right away. Yes, I know Galvan Rey hasn't taken in Metroland and Glen and Co. have been much more impressive. I think the Carribean duo are more complete strikers with a better all-around game and cheaper than Galvan Rey. But both of that duo have also had up and down moments and are still adjusting to the level of play in MLS. I think we've got a striker corp with plenty of potential. I think we're looking for someone to contribute right away. I think to go Carribean at this point (unless you're talking someone like Onandi Lowe or a player who has just emerged in a recent qualifier--like the Rapids discovered the Haitian player Puquero after the US-Haiti match), you're talking about signing someone on potential--probably with tremendous potential but potential none the less. That's a good description of Quaranta when he's healthy. Quintanilla for that matter and certainly Adu. So in short, I think the team is looking for immediate payoff--not something down the road. I think Bradley signed his two Argies last year (on "loan") b/c that gave him veteran, experienced depth on a team that was otherwise depleted (even though both of them were still pretty young). Last thought--if you had to pick 2 Concacaf or Conmebol leagues where the players were most likely to adjust quickly quickly to MLS ball (and DCU), I'd put Argentina and Uruguay at the top or close to the top. Granted, we're generalizing here but both leagues are pretty physical, both are skilled (well, more Argentina than Uruguay), both are extremely competitive and relatively sharp (ie: not sloppy), Argentina has a high level of play, there is a very high work rate for non-European or non-Korean ball.
I agree with your logic, and will even take it a step further. These types of players (big target forwards) are by definition conspicuous, and therefore even harder to find at a bargain price than a smaller player. Hopefully we'll find a gem, but I fear we'll end up with another average MLS forward.
you make a very valid point, IMO. great thread DCU.... I think Joe-Dubya hit the nail on the head tho. especially in argentina alot of the "one-dimensional" players are put on the back burner. the top forwards there are -usually- pretty complete with speed skill and strength (not necessarily size). so a player who is big and heads the ball well but cant create his own shot wouldn't be given much thought. we dont necessarily need somebody to dribble thru five guys and juke the keeper. we need someone to occupy defenders, win headers, and most importantly finish. all you have to do is look at the abundance of scoring opportunities we create each game that aren't converted. if we find someone who can consistently put away those chances we'd be in good shape. last week's 3-1 is a good example. if moreno gets stopped by the goalie, if esky's shots go wide, it would have been another example of a game that we dominate play and lose 1-0 on a silly goal at the end of the game
First off, this is a pretty narrow topic. Let's stay focused on it. That said ... There are really two questions here. First, there's the DC United specific question: Are the current trialists from the best place, or would we be better off looking to another geographic region. That's got nothing to do with the specifics of who these trialists are. It has everything to do with where KP and Co. are apparently looking for talent. The second question(s) is the more basic one: what kind of league should MLS be (long term), and how is it going to achieve that goal? Being me, I'm going to address these in the reverse order as I've listed them. How should MLS grow as a league? Should we bring in aging European stars? That occasionally works, but only rarely. Should we bring in a bunch of Mexicans? Has that ever worked? How about Africans? There's one or two success stories there, but nothing much. How about Asian players? Azizi didn't work out as planned. South American players? There have been a few success stories from second and third tier South American countries, but we're clearly not getting the best players and their worth is (as DCU states) vastly inflated. The latest failure is undoubtedly Sergio Galvan Rey ... What do all those regions have in common? They've all got established leagues of their own, or they've all got strong scouting ties with established leagues. The best players from Asia go to Korea and Japan, and some to Europe. The best players from Africa go to France and the rest of Europe. The best players in South America go to their own leagues and to Europe. The best players in Mexico ... they stay in Mexico. When MLS teams go to these regions of the world looking for talent they're going to get the guys who were passed over, the guys who are second and third tier players. They won't get the cream of the crop. What's left for the taking? Mexico aside, CONCACAF talent. This is that long (and short term) question. What kind of league should MLS be? I think we all want a world class league that competes with the best the world over. But the first step in that direction is to become THE CLASS league in CONCACAF. We should be working to get every shred of talent from Central American and, most critically, the Caribbean to sign with MLS. We should be the destination league for every quality player in CONCACAF. Sure some of CONCACAF's best go to Europe, but that's really the relatively few. There's still a lot for the taking. We should get to a point where we can say all the best players in the region (Mexico almost certainly aside) play in MLS. We need to get to the point where MLS is – without any question – the premier CONCACAF league. And to a great extent MLS is taking that route. Look at all the high quality CONCACAF signings the last few years. We've got Jamaicans, Cubans, Haitians, Grenadans ... and those are just from the islands. Everyone watched the team from Grenada during WCQ, but it pays to watch the other games as well. There's some real talent out there. If we can get Ruiz and Guevara level players already then MLS should be able to get more. They're out there. The best bargains (and the least scouted) are the guys from the Caribbean. So it's disconcerting to me when KP and Co. look to South America for our new striker. It means we’re going to get a second rate player, and that just makes us look like a second rate league. I’d rather get a first rate player from a CONCACAF nation than a second rate player from elsewhere. Here’s the thing: the second rate player from South America may be equal to the first rate player from CONCACAF. But I’d rather have the CONCACAF player. That sets the tone I want for MLS. It means they’re working hard to be the big fish in the (admittedly) small CONCACAF pond. But that’s alright for me. It’s a first step, and it’s a solid step. Couple that with the fact that Caribbean strikers seem to be doing very well in MLS while South American strikers tend to struggle, and to my ears it just sounds like KP and Co. are out of touch with the player realities of MLS, dull to the recent trends in MLS, and at a severe disjunction with my own sense of where MLS should go. In short, find me two equal players, one from CONCACAF and one from anywhere else in the world, and I’d rather MLS sign the CONCACAF player.
There's one topic not being addressed here that is directly relevant to acquiring players from Argentina. The Argentine league doesn't pay nearly what it did four or so years ago and is, frankly, not the most desirable place to live due to their dire economic climate. In addition Argentines have run into very big problems obtaining permission to play in EU countries due to the fake passport scandals and now due to general EU restrictions on immigration. Hence, you've got a whole new world for Argentinian middle-tier players than existed just a short while back. By proximity you can extend this logic to Uruguay. It also did not help the cause of Argentine football that they showed sooo poorly in 2002. If you had posted this theory in 2001, DCU, I'd be side stepping right with you. I think this is could be shrewd move for Payne et al. Argentina and Uruguay may be hotly scouted, but what you've got are European scouts looking for the next guy that would be worthwhile to hold down a coveted foreign spot making millions of euros. They are generally not interested in experienced role players who may be good goal scorers, but couldn't cut it as a "franchise" type player. So, our biggest competition will be with scouts from Mexico...but that is almost or even more so the case with Central America and to a lesser degree with the Carribean. But I could think of a few cases where we can sell MLS as a big fish small pond with good food and lots of european scouts versus small fish in a slightly bigger spicy pond with limited european exposure deal. The statement that CONCACAF players usually cheaper is not all that valid. Mexican and Costa Rican players are some of the most overpriced in the Americas, in my opinion. Cheers, Tim
I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here, but IMHO we become the best league & team by developing & properly scouting talent right here at home. Here is where we'll find the undiscovered "diamonds in the rough" and it takes real scouting effort over time, not just another comfy junket to someplace with tropical resorts. Harkes is always popping off about a reserves team system - get it going! Ya know, the A league is ideal for just that kind of thing... And hey, if we bring in trialists, how about a few homegrowns too?
Sorry I should have been clearer. I was thinking more about the players from the "smaller" CONCACAF countries i.e Cornell Glen and Fabian Taylor are a lot cheaper than Galvan Rey for example.
This what I find most perplexing about this league. We can sign any Brazilian out of the flavelas any irsh from a belfast streetcorner but you rarely see any american talent signed independently. Why is this? Are ther barriers that prevent this. We need to 1. Keep the cap at the same level as it is now. 2. Scrap the draft/discovery pick system. 3. Allow the teams to be innovattive and create value for this league by allowing rewards to exist that encourage finding new talent. While we are at it scrap the fcuking expansion draft please! All it does is dilute the talent in the league wjile not encouraging the discovery of new talent. It might be smart for baseball because most of the world doesn't play that game so there is only so much talent available. But there is a world of talent out there in this sport at all price ranges and talent levels. We should be encouraging people to find new talent. Not encouraging the dilution of the talent base that will result in an accompanying drop in the quality of play.
BTW, it would be a mis-statement to argue that DCU is only focusing on Argentina and Uruguay for talent and ignoring other cheaper bargains. After all, Kouffour hails from Ghana--I think Africa can be a great source of cheap, undiscovered talent that rivals the Carribean and Central American players and then some. Wasn't one of the existing trialists a Uruguayan who had recently played on a Salvadoran club side? Aguilera probably doesn't count b/c he played in MLS (but Bolivia doesn't fit with the Argentina and Uruguay argument). I agree DCU should be willing to look at cheap, undiscovered talent. I think the team is certainly doing some of it. While the odds are lower that talent from Argentina will be cheap and undiscovered, it's not impossible.
Wigan is likely to only sell to someone English, if at all - and probably for more than Southampton was offering for Beasley at that.
Which, in a nutshell, explains exactly what is completely F-ed up about the British and European transfer market. A team that is 22 million pounds in debt, carries 6 million pounds annual loss, and is desparate to trim down their wages would attempt to hold on to marginal players in the hope to cash in on their transfer fees, while a World Class player and incredible prospect such as Beasley gets low-balled. Cheers, Tim
Is it certain that the 31 year old is argentinian? If not them maybe its Lapaglia, someone we have courted before. He fits the target foward mold, and would definitely help our scoring woes.
I'd be right with you if KP and co were planning to outright sign one of these players, and assume that they were quality enough to play first team football in Europe but squeezed out due to other circumstances. But bringing a trio over on trial changes the type of player being looked at IMO. Speculation is fun, no?
Having once attended a Wigan game, let me fill in on Roberts. He's a starter on a team that missed the promotion playoff to the EPL on the last day. Wigan is owned by the same individual who owns JJB Sports, a chain sporting good store not unlike Sports Authority. They own a nice new stadium supported by a shopping mall attached to the property and sharing the parking facilities. To put it simply, Roberts makes a heck of a lot more than DCU can afford.