This is a very small scale version of what the feminists talk about when they say the personal is political. We are drifting into regarding Balkanization as common sense. This is one more little brick in the wall that says people too different from us can't have a worthwhile opinion, can't be expected to express it in a civil way, and it's just easier and pleasanter to keep "them" away. We will all be living in a better world if we don't go down that road, not even on something like the place where we express our opinions about our sports teams.
What business does a fan of a team have posting in another team's forum other than for something like an "i'll be visiting your city, where do you suggest for a bar and hotel?" type thread? Same thing in any other forum. There's a league forum to discuss league matters, is there not? IMO, regarding the matter of what was said, who it was said by, who it was said to, if I want to discuss that, isn't that why we have a league forum? Now what Knave could have done is have a "DC fans discuss the matter" thread and an "everybody else discuss the matter" thread. IMO, either method would have been fine. Then again, it's the DC forum so what they want to do in there should be their business. But wouldn't two threads have defeated the purpose of having the league forum? And yes, some forums are moderated slightly differently, depending on the intended content and demographic of that forum. Then again, the atmosphere in one house can be quite different of a house on the next block, can it not?
And what if a point is raised on the DC board that isn't raised in the general forum? Right of reply is non-existent.
This past summer I saw C'bus play SJ, and I thought they played well vs the best team in the league at that point. SJ had a formidable mid-field, yet C'bus was able to hold their own vs. them, except... there was something off. So I asked, very politely... what's up wit dat? How come their midfield was so strong, yet they couldn't get it past midfield to threaten to score. And I got my answer w/in seconds. (No forward worth his salt.) Had I talked about it w/ SJ fans or amongst LA fans (hey remember when we played C'bus months ago? yeah, thought nobody did), I never would've reached as good an answer as I got from C'bus fans. I think they also appreciated that I spoke well of their team rather than bagging on them. It's called healthy dialogue.
Not really, no. The phrase "the personal is political" was just a way of challenging the then (that is, in the 60's) tacitly accepted distance between the lives of individuals and the larger political processes. For example, it was this perception, among other things, that feminists saw as allowing people to blame the victim, such as seeing a woman's financial difficulty as a result only of her personal decisions instead of the systemic constraints on women's employment, power to earn, etc. that shaped those decisions. (Sorry, I've no intent to hijack the thread at all, and this will be my last post on this topic here.)
So basically, you don't agree with someone, so you want him gone. You're a paying member, with an ignore list, right?
Look if decide I want to give a shit about what people from other teams think about my team, I'll go check out MLS General or N&A. Until then you guys can pretty much ******** off. Blind Pig gets it.
How did you get that from my post? I came to this thread to discuss Knave, his action and what it means for BS. What I didn't come to read is the inane drivel from the poster in question. Aside from the shocking grammar and repetition, all it is is someone bitching about rival fans and firing off insults to anyone who disagrees. It's irrelevant and not required.
You never get it do you? I assume from now on you will be flaming every other teams fan who stops by in the Crew forum?
No, you look... man. Look at my posting record. Do I look like a troll to you? Do I look like I go into the Iran forum with a chip on my shoulder? No, I'm curious about Iran and it's national team. So I post in their forum... respectfully... and I am generally treated with respect in return. Why wasn't that the case today in an MLS team forum? You see, there are clear rules for dealing with trolling and flaming. But instead of enforcing existing rules to keep jerks from angering people in a forum, Knave has instead lumped everyone who is an "outsider" (something in no way defined or definable) into one group that is systematically shunned from what is, contrary to your apparent belief, a public forum. Basically, we were pre-judged to be trolls, based on nothing other than that we weren't diehard DCU fans, or rather diehard DCU fans that Knave knew. Believe it or not, non-fans post on a number of different team specific forums everyday, and in doing so make those forums better... and yes, maybe even a little more open-minded. By sticking "Section 8" in your profile, you do not become a special class of BigSoccer citizen, with greater rights than say... those of us who PAY to help keep this place going. The difference between light and heavy moderation is quantitative and completely fine. Obviously you have to mod some forums more strongly than others. But the difference between moderation and "get out, this is our forum" is qualitative and well beyond what I think the DC forum mod had any legitimate right or, at the very least, fair reason to do. To sum up, the attitude you hold is reprehensible, is anathema to what BigSoccer (not to mention the Internet and an open society) is all about, and would cause great harm to this forum if allowed to take root everywhere. Now go to hell. peace, tom
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I agree with you up to a point about the SJE situation, but this is not about fans on a board protecting their village idiots, its about a board moderator and heavy handed censorship. IMO the San Jose mods have been extremely tolerant of outside posters as long as they do not violate the TOS. I can even give an example recently of you yourself being supported of your right to post on the SJE board by one of the San Jose mods.
So, wouldn't the private website serve you better? That way you can screen all members and not have to worry about trolls. Why set up shop in a public forum and scream at everyone to stay away. I am a member of a Sounder forum that has a special board for those members who after time and trust get admitted to the "inner sanctum" where discussions can take place away from prying eyes. To me, this is the solution for those who don't want non-fans crashing the party. Just a thought.
In the DC forum, I've went at it, er... got attacked, by DC fans who were shockedSHOCKED to have an outsider stand up to them. Ursula asked a question and I responded. My response: 1. In a large community like BS, there are bound to be ppl w/ experience or expertise in a given field: PR, corporate damage control, Polish, linguistics, etc. that can shape the debate so that DCU fans learn something 2. In a large community like BS, there are bound to be of color who might be able to provide insight from a more objective standpoint. 3. Outside fans are more likely to ask basic questions, and DC fans would be forced to break down the issue step-by-step. This actually helps DC fans b/c then the basics tend to guide the discourse. And more importantly 4. To avoid the ridiculous conspiracy theories that went unchallenged here 5. To avoid the poorly-constructed arguments for distracting from debate. Sorry, but w/ #4 and #5, not enough DC fans challenged these posters 6. To help out the rest of BS so that we don't waste our time w/ having to slam the poorly-constructed arguments that are brazenly posted elsewhere, b/c when they don't go challenged, idiots go to other threads and think they're all bad-ass 7. To avoid having ppl come chase those posters after slamming them in Analysis and wondering why the hell this crap is coming out of DC's forum, "I think I'm fitting to go hun'in' for some DC scum" and plaguing your boards. 8. The fact is that it's a public board, and if posters are respectful, it would be nice to get DC's take on the issue so as to be informed of what's driving this controversy. 9. Incestuous, insular communities tend to shelter their members to the point where, b/c they go unchallenged, they go and troll elsewhere. Communities w/ open dialogue tend to have members that have skills in healthy dialogue, i.e.: they're less likely to go trolling. On BS and the MLS boards, DC is known as having the most dictatorial mod team and as home to the largest amount of trolls, especially in season. By knowing that their mods are going to protect DC from any remotely possible negative comment, they take that as carte blanche to go "neener neener nee-ner" elsewhere. These are a few of the reasons why so many are against this policy.
To that, Knave responded: Go ahead and respond to it, Knave, point by point. If not here, in the thread w/ over 100 posts. But be careful, I don't think the general response outside here will be as kind to your assessment that it was condescending and arrogant, especially given the context. Given the response I've gotten from that post, I would say that there's 2 perspectives to that. Many, many posters think that your policy is the most arrogant, patronizing and obnoxious things they've ever encountered on Big Soccer. You obviously have no idea how this policy rubs off on ppl. And not just non-DCU fans, fyi. I stand by my belief that dialogue is good and that incestuous fora or inherently weeker. I'm sorry if that rubs you as arrogant. Please, Knave, respond... point by point. And bear in mind that you'll be outside your lil' bubble of protection. One day surfing around in the DC boards, granted, not the best of days, ick.
Personally I stand behind Knave and his decision. It might not have been the best answer to the problem that was presenting itself, but I think it was a sound one. I think he was also correct in opening the later thread under heavy moderation. In regards to the DC Fans trolling because they are protected on their own boards. That's crap. Every team has it's trolls and most posters will make a troll here or there and it has nothing to do with feeling safe and protected in their home forum. I have also seen Knave make many posts over the years I have been on BS to other DCU posters asking them to not troll on other teams boards. And the thought that the "dumb ideas" will be cultivated and then taken to other boards is crap too. Those are either A) true idiots or B) real trolls and neither case is likely to be swayed by any rational debate regardless of where it takes place. In regards to the "it's my team, stay out" thought. In a case like the initial Nowak thread, I completely agree that a poster from any other team is by default going to be looked as a troll regardless of how well thought their post might be. Under normal circumstances, though, I disagree with this mentality (except for the blatent trolling for trolling sake). As far the Pre and Post game threads that the DCU boards have, I think more team forums could do with them. Our mods keep them clean of the trolling (i.e. "you're team sucks and we're going to kick your ass"), but do not stop other teams from posting their legitimate thoughts leading up to or following a game. I do miss the old pre-game banter threads that were specifically set aside for trolling, the Burn threads were always the best And finally to Archer. I agree that I have seen many of my fellow DCU posters trolling, but unless your list contains Knave's name or regards posts on a board that Knave mod's then you need to take it up with the mods for those boards and get off Knave's back about it. He has no control of what people do outside the boards he monitors. Additionally, if your team have a highly charged event like this and you are having issues with trolls (regardless of team affiliation), then you need to take it up with your moderators. It could be argued (and is regularly) that Knave is taking his job too seriously and is being too heavy handed, but if your moderators are allowing critical topics to be diluted by trolls then they aren't doing their job at all. -dave
Dave: I appreciate your point. Up to a point. No, Knave certainly does not, in my experience "troll" other forums and should not normally be asked or expected to answer for the actions of the large collection of jerks who populate the DCU fanbase. HOWEVER in this instance, Knave is the one who brought the DCU fanbase into play, not me. He said that "DC fans deserved some privacy" and that the "die hard DC fans" ought to "have the right" to discuss this amongst themselves. THAT was the sentiment I was responding to: the idea that somehow DC fans, being of such normally tender and equitable nature had, in this instance, earned some kind of special privelege when, in actuality, if there is one group on Big Soccer who has "earned" nothing of the kind, it's them.
The level of maturity in the DC boards is astoundingly low. They're talking about how there's going to be "bad blood" btw them and SLC and how SLC better watch out. How high shcool! What a turn off.
I imagine that if we take the feelings about our teams as well as an unemotional view of the situation, we agree in principle. I think that Knave is correct that we (DCU posters) should have place to talk about it (regardless of how ignorant some of those posters may choose to sound) without the noise of the average non-DCU poster getting in the way. But in that, I also think that you as a Crew supporter should have a similar place to discuss such a critical issue without the non-Crew posters bogging it down (no matter how well intentioned the poster may be). And this goes for all the forums. The point I was trying to make is that it is the reponsibility of the board moderators to take care of their own board. For people to jump on Knave about him clamping down on a thread (and usually being stricter than most in general) and using the argument of "DCU posters do it in other boards" doesn't hold water to me. The argument about what any poster does (regardless of team affiliation) needs to be addressed by the moderator for the board in question. I do not, however, think that it should get into anyones head to do this regularly or to (as I have seen at least one mouth-breather call for) have mods in other forums block DCU posters simply as retaliation to Knave's decision. If a post warrents it, pull it. If crisis warrents it, lock it down. But neither should be the defacto standard and I don't believe that Knave has that intention. I stopped reading most of the other forums (except in rare cases like this) not because I am some inbred DCU only supporter, but because most of the other forums have been varying degrees of chaos comparatively. I stay in the DCU forum because Knave's "heavy-handedness" keeps it clean and easy to follow (IMHO). -dave
pretty much somes it up for me.. I could care less about DCU but it still doesnt make it right.. Trolling is not tolerated within the confines of most areas of BS, that is why WR was created.. its as simple as this.. if someone is trolling.. give them a warning, they do it again.. second warning, a third.. forum ban.. deleting posts is childish.. I for one hate when my posts are erased, it has happened to me 2 or 3 times and I wasnt even trolling, some mod didnt agree with what I said.. and it can be frustrating to see a good and intelligent post that could bring a bit more debate of the subject at hand in an intelligent manner.. I dont condone trolling in team forums, I dont do it, I save all that penned up rage for WR.. When you do post in another forum just be aware of what you are posting as it can be a little sensitive to other people. Reverse the situation, if a situation happened to your team involving whatever and it would upset you if someone posted something regarding the fact, than DONT DO IT!! and if someone does troll, don't respond, than your just feeding the troll..
As preface, I've been around for about 6 years. Recently changed my login. Secondly, I'm a DCU fan. What Knave did here is wrong. In general, heavy moderation should be an EXPLICIT rule in team forums. I completely agree with that, and Jesse needs to spell that out. But that shouldn't mean that people are banned from joining a conversation if they aren't expressly listed as a fan of said team. First of all, it's just too high a bar, given that BSers aren't registered or affiliated in any official way. In this instance, we had one moderator making snap judgements on who could/couldn't post in a given thread. Very bad precedent. Secondly, the notion that, in general, any opposing fan will be viewed as a troll in a given forum is just goofy. It also, despite Blind Pig's assertion, isn't reality. I've posted on other team's forums many many times. I don't troll--I ask questions or I give a different perspective. And yeah, sometimes I enter into a debate. Big deal. Grow up and deal with some controversy and differing opinion. Again, however, if someone is being a jerk on another team's forum? I have absolutely no problem if a moderator tells him/her to take a walk (or just deletes the post). And, I have to say, there are a number of opposing fans that come into the DC forum and without pulling any punches, get stuck right in on conversations... And I welcome it. So as much as I'm stating that I don't like the decision Knave made in this case, I think that generally the DC board is a place where others can come in and voice an opinion. Oh, and finally, I find the overly generalized characterization of "DC fans" quite ironic, given the topic at hand.