You love your stats. How about just watching alot of games. In your world Taylor Twellman, Roy Lassiter, Jeff Cunningham USMNT quality too.
I dont think Rowe nor Nagbe is USMNT quality. Nagbe will be on the team when he is eligible. Actually I thought Rowe and Nagbe were fairly similar in style of play from the games I watched this year in MLS. The fact that their stats in G/A's are similar makes them even more comparable. Not sure why this is a problem?
My personal opinion is Nagbe's close ball skills are close to world class and something we need he will be a USMNT staple for 2 world cups. Kelyn Rowe will be a peripheral MNT player like Brad Davis
"Close ball skills", no. Good 1v1 dribbler, yes. He would be playing where Valeri plays if he had close ball skills. We dont know where Rowe's ceiling is. Rowe, acc to wiki has 5 apps 0 goals for U18 and 6 apps 3 goals for U20's. Not sure what you mean by not ready. He will be 22 yrs old tomorrow. I hold no brief for Rowe, I just wonder why the comparison with Nagbe is dismissed out of hand. Even their scoring career in MLS is similar.
He is almost definitely heading into the final year of his contract. The standard MLS contract is 2+1+1, those +1's being team options.
Generally pace is most useful in wide positions, and in recovery defense. Therefore the very fast Nagbe plays wider than the average paced Valeri. As has been covered before Wallace stays wide left while Nagbe and Valeri roam. Things Rowe Needs to Improve on for the International Game: 1. Decision Making: Good creativity around the box. When there's no time to think and he can attempt high risk/reward passes he has some quality, out wide or deeper in midfield where there are more options to weigh and mistakes are more dangerous he doesn't have the patience or the insight to make the right play. Not a guy who creates a possession rhythm for his team. 2. Ball Retention: He's small and plays to his size, so he can be pushed off the ball. Good facing guys up but not checking to the ball with his back to goal. Not nearly as good at turning away from multiple markers or creating separation with his first step. 3. Passing: Touched on this above but his completion rate is likely 10-15% lower than Nagbe's. Beyond that raw number qualitatively he makes mistakes/poor decisions on far more makeable plays. 4. Physical Attributes: Obviously he's not the fastest guy but it's more his fitness and inconsistent motor. Heaps had him coming off the bench because that was a way to get him mentally revved up to bring it every minute on the field. 5. Defense: Not a natural defender and hasn't learned that part of the game, his motor also plays into this.
I guess we disagree. I don't think you've seen alot of Timbers game. Nagbe is terrific at getting a ball in closed in situations and getting out of them or making the perfect pass out of them. He did it time and time again. My definition of a one on one dribbler tends to be outside when a wide attacking player is one v one and breaks them down. Your conclusion that he'd be playing where Valeri is is false. No dismissal out of hand just an opinion based on watching both players through dozens of games. I'm not a blind statistics guy. I watch the games. My take is Nagbe's skill level is so much better than Rowe's. JMO
UR wrong on the bolded part. Nagbe is easily confused in crowded spaces. That is why he crapped out at left wing and was moved right early in the season. Most people who rave about Nagbe tend to look at the plays he makes in isolation and let that blind them to his team work which is questionable. There are teams who could use Nagbe. How wise it would be to force him on the USMNT is open to question.
Nagbe is a better midfielder than Rowe. I don't think that can be argued. Rowe, to me has the most potential with the national team as second striker rather than midfielder. He has good feet in the box, can play the final ball, and most importantly he has a pretty good shot. He would not be useful as a wide midfielder or in central midfield at the highest level.
No I'm not wrong. Just disagree with you. He plays alot centrally despite what 'position' you think he plays. He is quite talented, just ask the coaches in the league who they would prefer to have. No comparison. His talent will force himself onto the USMNT in 2 yrs.
Easily confused, no. What you could have taken issue with @SUDano on is "perfect." Generally after playing out of pressure Nagbe only looks to make safe, possession retaining passes. He has a conservative streak, similar to Landon, and it usually serves him well but if he had a little more confidence/perspective he'd realize that when he dribbles away from 3 markers there almost has to be a free runner. The subtext of that list of areas of improvement is that Nagbe does those things better.
He had 4 assists in 2800 minutes, i.e., 1 every 700 minutes or 1 every 8 games. Maybe he has no vision, no soccer IQ. He doesnt feel his teammates' position on the pitch. But Rowe had 1 assist per 300 minutes whereas Nagbe had 1 assist per 800 minutes. Rowe had twice the assists Nagbe did. Nagbe would have had one single assist in the hex at that rate playing in Donovan's position. (10 games 900 minutes). You dont see the problem because you watch play in isolation rather as something done in concord.
You can pick and choose all the stats you want to prove your point. Its ok that Nagbe's role is to maintain possession through the final 5th. If you didn't see him make quality touch after quality touch often being completely surrounded. Hard to make assists when that's not his role. He's the assistors assistee. By continutally looking up stats and posting them it seems you probably saw him in limited time. I had direct kick and watched virtually every game for both players. Rowe is a good player, Nagbe can be a great player. This just in, not every player with more assists is better than Nagbe just like all those players with more goals per season isn't better than Donovan.
But I was citing the stats in reply to comoesa, not you. Comoesa's post said it was unquestioned that Nagbe was the better midfielder whereas Rowe was a striker.
You sort of supported my post. I said Rowe is good at playing a final ball. But as a midfielder, possession play, engine, drive for 90 minutes, Nagbe outshines him easily. But to me they would play in two different roles with the national team anyway.
Nagbe is a mediocre winger, I don't think he has a future with the national team at that position unless he makes some major changes to the way that he plays. He has the speed to make runs down the sideline, but he doesn't often cross the ball and is reluctant to take guys on in 1-on-1 situations. So he will make a run down the sideline and get the ball near the corner, and then just sit there with it before eventually making a backpass. Because of this Nagbe rarely generates goals or assists when he is out wide. The only reason that he can be effective in that position at all with the Timbers is because Porter's system gives him the freedom to sometimes wander over to the middle. However, Nagbe is very good in the middle. He excels at making short passes, controls the ball well in tight spaces, makes dangerous runs, draws a lot of fouls, and is a serious threat to score. If Nagbe is going to play for the USMNT it should be in a central position, not a wide position. Nagbe isn't actually that good at 1v1 dribbling. He is much more impressive when he is surrounded by defenders than when there is only one of them. And he should be playing in Valeri's position. I think that he is better at that position than Valeri is, which is saying something because Valeri is pretty good. Nagbe had a lot of key passes though, even more than Rowe. It seemed like he created a lot of chances for his teammates this year that they failed to finish.
I don't care. I was responding to what you wrote - that Nagbe at 23 is "not far away" from Donovan at 23. My point is that Nagbe is, in fact, "far away" from where Donovan was at 23. No, I am comparing Donovan's career at 23, which is far from his complete career, to Nagbe's at 23. I wasn't addressing that point. Now that you raise it, I disagree. Nagbe has one year of good goal scoring, but he has yet to do anything remotely Donovanesque in terms of assists. Maybe, but Donovan's consistent output in MLS seems to put lie to this argument. How about rings at 23 - how do they compare? Look I am not slagging on Nagbe, he would be a welcome addition to the USMNT pool. But it concerns me that we aren't close to finding a successor to Donovan and Dempsey in the pool
Dempsey was not a bad comparison. In his three MLS seasons prior to age 23, he Dempsey was much more of a comparison than Nagbe. Dempsey averaged 0.85 points per game in his first three MLS seasons, well short of Donovan's 1.28, but dwarfing Nagbe's 0.44 points per game. Dempsey's 11.6 goals per season and 5.6 assists per season, while short of Donovan's totals at age 23, are fairly close. A strong argument can be made that Dempsey's totals were lower than Donovan's because Dempsey, unlike Donovan, was playing in college at age 18 and it is not unsurprising that Dempsey would start slower in MLS. Nagbe seems too far off the pace to hope that this factor could get him up to the level of Donovan or Dempsey.
I'm liking the direction that this thread has taken. Just to continue the good vibes, allow me to kick off the next sequence of discussion topics. Darlington Nagbe vs. Diego Fagundez Darlington Nagbe vs. Andy Dorman Darlington Nagbe vs. Chris Tierney Darlington Nagbe vs. Bobby Shuttleworth Proceed.
Dempsey was not a bad comparison. In his three MLS seasons prior to age 23, he Dempsey was much more of a comparison than Nagbe. Dempsey averaged 0.85 points per game in his first three MLS seasons, well short of Donovan's 1.28, but dwarfing Nagbe's 0.44 points per game. Dempsey's 11.6 goals per season and 5.6 assists per season, while short of Donovan's totals at age 23, are fairly close. A strong argument can be made that Dempsey's totals were lower than Donovan's because Dempsey, unlike Donovan, was playing in college at age 18 and it is not unsurprising that Dempsey would start slower in MLS. Nagbe seems too far off the pace to hope that this factor could get him up to the level of Donovan or Dempsey.